So, you nerfed untangle and sharpening stone in PVE for no reason.

[Mell.4873]

45 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

They mentioned immob druid on two streams in a row now, and specifically on the last as a reason why Muddy Terrain isn't getting CD reduction in WvW.  They know about it.

Its kind of a mute point to say PvE is easy. I mean WvW is easy since you just join a Zerg and just tag up. My point is it's doesn't stop you trying to play better. 

Its nice though that you play Druid, I only play it in WvW and love it but I play more offensively. Immobilisation is nice but I think there is to much of a good thing. I spend most of my time running in with druid and chain aoe stunning players along with immobing them.

I go back to my other point which is we don't even know if the final version will be that they don't reduce all skills by 20% related to trait rework. We are just assuming so since they never mentioned it on the patch notes, but we all know how incompetent they are sometimes. Why can't it extend it to patch notes, wait untill live update at least. 

[Levetty.1279]

16 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It is a nerf for the people who were running this trait in PvE, but actual meta builds are not affected by it.

Sorry, but the actual reason is exactly that: no meta build in PvE uses the trait with these skills in combination and Anet simply doesn't balance around what people run for their personal for fun builds in open world.

Then why did they nerf it?

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Then why did they nerf it?

It's more like they didn't see a need to buff them for meta builds when these skills are already used.

Both skills, sharpening stone and entangle, are already used on meta condition damage builds for ranger. For example the condition untamed build, which currently benches ~43k dps, is using both of them without the cooldown reduction from the trait.

Anet is making the cooldown reduction of skills losing these traits baseline if appropriate. Skills which are already used in meta builds without the cooldown reduction trait (so the skills are already good enough without them to get taken) simply do not need that additional buff that is pushing the meta builds further.

It's not really a nerf, it is a refusal to buff meta builds without any reason to do so. The skills are already taken anyway.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Levetty.1279]

TIL removing the ability to reduce CD isn't a nerf.

Some people would defend Anet if they broke into their house and shot their dog.

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

TIL removing the ability to reduce CD isn't a nerf.

Some people would defend Anet if they broke into their house and shot their dog.

Dude, I literally said that it is a nerf for those using them in combination in the comment before this one yet.

The thing is that Anet is actually balancing around meta builds. And for the meta builds, not giving the cooldown reduction as baseline makes no difference, because they didn't run these in combination anyway.

Meanwhile making these cooldown reductions baseline for these skills would be a buff for the meta builds, which is simply not warranted at this point.

It's not all black and white. Context matters and Anet is not balancing around what 5 players are chosing to use in their for fun open world builds.

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Dude, I literally said that it is a nerf for those using them in combination in the comment before this one yet.

The thing is that Anet is actually balancing around meta builds. And for the meta builds, not giving the cooldown reduction as baseline makes no difference, because they didn't run these in combination anyway.

Meanwhile making these cooldown reductions baseline for these skills would be a buff for the meta builds, which is simply not warranted at this point.

It's not all black and white. Context matters and Anet is not balancing around what 5 players are chosing to use in their for fun open world builds.

Dude, I literally covered that in my first post. Here let me repeat it for you.

"it doesn't matter that they nerfed a skill for no reason because It doesn't effect me in my tiny part of the game"

 

Great reasoning guys. Start kitten to Warrior and Ele and they will give you a job on the balance team.

[Kodama.6453]

Just now, Levetty.1279 said:

Dude, I literally covered that in my first post. Here let me repeat it for you.

"it doesn't matter that they nerfed a skill for no reason because It doesn't effect me in my tiny part of the game"

 

Great reasoning guys. Start kitten to Warrior and Ele and they will give you a job on the balance team.

Except that you with your open world build are the "tiny part of the game". The meta is having a way bigger impact on the grand scheme of things than what you personally chose to run as a suboptimal build.

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Except that you with your open world build are the "tiny part of the game".

Apart form the fact the majority of people play open world/living story and hardly anybody touches raids, there is also PvP and WvW. We will also ignore that some meta picks got some buffs this patch.

 

I accept your condescending tone is just a sign that you have no actual reason why these skills should be nerfed though.

[Kodama.6453]

Just now, Levetty.1279 said:

Apart form the fact the majority of people play open world/living story and hardly anybody touches raids, there is also PvP and WvW. We will also ignore that some meta picks got some buffs this patch.

 

I accept your condescending tone is just a sign that you have no actual reason why these skills should be nerfed though.

You realise that people also run meta builds in open world and living story, right?

Many people are looking up optimal builds to play instead of crafting everything themselves. It's not just the raid community using these buils, it's way way more people.

And there is also no actual reason to buff a 43k dps build when the skills are already good enough without a cooldown reduction obviously. Sorry, but that's how it is, you won't get Anet to balance around your own personal favourite build.

[Levetty.1279]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

You realise that people also run meta builds in open world and living story, right?

 

Sudden 180 of opinion when you get called out for being wrong, classic.

I'm not surprised this ultimately all comes down to your pathological hatred of Untamed. The skills in question are core skills you know?

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Sudden 180 of opinion when you get called out for being wrong, classic.

I'm not surprised this ultimately all comes down to your pathological hatred of Untamed. The skills in question are core skills you know?

Hybrid soulbeast also uses sharpening stone, again without the cooldown reduction trait.

This has nothing to do with untamed, nice try of deflection tho. Fact is the skills are already good enough without the cooldown reduction, they simply don't need it in PvE. You can fight the facts all you want, but that won't change them.

[AllNightPlayer.1286]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:49 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Alot of these CD reduction traits are picked mainly for CD and making the CD baseline is awesome, but it also makes it entirely pointless for the trait to be picked. This goes for all other classes too who had their CD reduction traits "simplified" 

So true. They removed many CD reductions from traits and only leaving the other stuff. I caught myself rarely picking these former CD reduction traits, since the left over effects aren’t worth it any more. My favourite: Glacial Heart. The chill effect for one hammer skill isn’t even worth a trait.

Edited February 6, 2023 by AllNightPlayer.1286

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, AllNightPlayer.1286 said:

So true. They removed many CD reductions from traits and only leaving the other stuff. I caught myself rarely picking these former CD reduction traits, since the left over effects aren’t worth it any more. My favourite: Glacial Heart. The chill effect for one hammer skill isn’t even worth a trait.

It's not just a chill on one skill, tho?

It's also a chill + 0,5 power coefficient hit on every enemy you disable. That trait might still not be great, but we should not lie about what they do, that's counterproductive.

[Zyreva.1078]

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

They mentioned immob druid on two streams in a row now, and specifically on the last as a reason why Muddy Terrain isn't getting CD reduction in WvW.  They know about it.

Pretty sure they are referring to a zerg/GvG build - which is primarily a support build - and not the condi/bleed roaming build. The former might use muddy terrain, the latter typically sharpening stone. No reasonable build would use both , because those bleeds would be useless in a grp setting and for solo play you'd want at least 2 stun breaks.

So they are intentionally not reducing mt cd, because they don't want to buff the zerg variant, and they probably forgot sharpening stone even exists in WvW, because it is only ever used for solo play (and even then rarely) which they generally don't consider at all with their balance changes.

Edited February 6, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[ThunderX.6591]

19 hours ago, Peter.3901 said:

I'm surprised that literally no one gave a reason for the nerf, literally they just said:  "i don't use in my little world so that's fine"

This community is hilarious at best, now i can see why devs don't take nothing here seriously.

 

No matter if you use it or not......... if you don't get the general reduction cooldown that could be get before the change using the trait as all the other skills get, the final result is a nerf, plain and simple.

Peter hit the nail with what he write......... and that is really sad to see happening.........

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:49 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

I have more issue with them basically making CD reduction traits useless. Do they plan to rework it eventually if they remove the CD portion of the trait? If they don't, they just created a dead trait slot, which I really dislike. 

Alot of these CD reduction traits are picked mainly for CD and making the CD baseline is awesome, but it also makes it entirely pointless for the trait to be picked. This goes for all other classes too who had their CD reduction traits "simplified" 

As a warrior non-main i can confirm (Shield Master).

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Pretty sure they are referring to a zerg/GvG build - which is primarily a support build - and not the condi/bleed roaming build. The former might use muddy terrain, the latter typically sharpening stone. No reasonable build would use both , because those bleeds would be useless in a grp setting and for solo play you'd want at least 2 stun breaks.

So they are intentionally not reducing mt cd, because they don't want to buff the zerg variant, and they probably forgot sharpening stone even exists in WvW, because it is only ever used for solo play (and even then rarely) which they generally don't consider at all with their balance changes.

 

Which still logically makes no sense as they reduced Entangle.  So now all they did was create an annoying 1s gap between lesser muddy terrain activating and troll unguent for GvG builds?

I think they care about GvG less than they do roamers, and I'm not sure I've ever been muddy terrain'd in a zerg (it's pretty slow, 5 cap, and easy to see/dodge).

Just another balance decision that makes no sense to those of us who actually play their game.  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Apart form the fact the majority of people play open world/living story and hardly anybody touches raids, there is also PvP and WvW. We will also ignore that some meta picks got some buffs this patch.

 

I think this is where the problem lies with me, as by balancing around meta for ranger they are ruining the class as a whole by putting it into meme builds (one shot slb, teleburst untamed) and hardlining druid into a support/non-damaging role.  

Which is annoying as something like elementalist continues to happily be multi-purpose with no reigning in or tradeoffs of any kind.  

So yes, either the sharpening stone nerf or just the omission of it is a big problem for me as it shows they are still indeed mostly balancing from golem numbers in PvE and memes in PvP/WvW.  

[Zyreva.1078]

48 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Which still logically makes no sense as they reduced Entangle.

They alse explained why (it competes with glyph of the starts with zerg druids usually running the latter).

48 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think they care about GvG less than they do roamers,

There have been quite a few changes that appear to be aimed at the GvG meta, eg. Rise or DH nerfs, some boon strip nerfs probably too (and it is no surprise considering they have a dev who is participating in GvGs).

Edited February 6, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Levetty.1279]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Hybrid soulbeast also uses sharpening stone, again without the cooldown reduction trait.

This has nothing to do with untamed, nice try of deflection tho. Fact is the skills are already good enough without the cooldown reduction, they simply don't need it in PvE. You can fight the facts all you want, but that won't change them.

Your lies are not facts. The skills didn't need a nerf and you have provided no reason why they should be.

[enkeny.6937]

17 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Your lies are not facts. The skills didn't need a nerf and you have provided no reason why they should be.

Sharpening stone don't get nerf, wilderness knowledge get. that is fact
Sharpening stone don't get buff. (based on patch note) is fact.
that means: sharpening stone + wilderness knowledge get nerf, because sharpening stone not buffed. fact
Most effective builds don't use this combo. 

23 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Apart form the fact the majority of people play open world/living story and hardly anybody touches raids, there is also PvP and WvW.

PvP/WvW not count in a PvE conversation. Meta builds son't mean raid builds or fractal builds. meta means most effective tactic available. The raid druid build, for example, not meta for open world solo. 
People, who make they builds will do again after the patch or don't care how effective they build is. Who care will search for meta builds. That what it is  mean: 

23 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The meta is having a way bigger impact

 

[Kodama.6453]

17 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Your lies are not facts. The skills didn't need a nerf and you have provided no reason why they should be.

Fact: both, sharpening stone and entangle, are good enough without the cooldown reduction to get taken in condi meta builds, which means that they are some of the best performing condition damage utility skills in rangers arsenal. Otherwise these meta builds wouldn't use them since the point of these builds is to maximize damage output.

If these skills are already the best performing without the cooldown reduction, there is no point in buffing them.

Now tell me, what about this is a lie?

Edited February 7, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Levetty.1279]

Once again both you posts boil down to 

"it doesn't matter that they nerfed a skill for no reason because It doesn't effect me in my tiny part of the game"

 

So once again I say great reasoning guys. Start kitten to Warrior and Ele and they will give you a job on the balance team.

[enkeny.6937]

By the way, you can rewatch the stream, around 14 minutes, in the elementalist section they speak about cd reduction traits in global.
They said, it is problematic for some skill to balance it with cd reduction traits. Most likely entangle and sharpening stone is here.

Maybe they think: most build don't use this skills with traits, and that builds are in good position for balance. that's why they don't change.

(So for my PvE builds nothing change for my untamed and my soulbeast builds got buffed because primal cry change.)

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Once again both you posts boil down to 

"it doesn't matter that they nerfed a skill for no reason because It doesn't effect me in my tiny part of the game"

 

So once again I say great reasoning guys. Start kitten to Warrior and Ele and they will give you a job on the balance team.

Your argument boils down to "I don't care if the skills become overpowered in the hands of people who know what they are doing, I want these skills to be strong for the people who have no idea about build crafting".