Willbender is just a glorified +1.......otherwise useless

[Arheundel.6451]

Trying to understand the meaning of this elite now.......I see zero benefits in playing one other than dash around with gs/double sword in wvw...hoping to catch some target on low HP..otherwise they'd win by outsustain you....so just a worse core guardian with extra mobility, comparable to untamed as a worse core ranger with a bubble. Your only advantage in a fight is mobility and that's it:

 

In PvP: you now lack the dmg to justify the lack of sustain needed to duel others and you need engage skills to starts fights, and given the presence of busted specs like distortion spam virtuoso and CO, the only thing you can actually "burst" are bad thieves/core guardians as they lack on call OP active defenses. Overall I see the smoke...but not the boom...useless dashing WvW spec that can be easily outsustained like any other guardian spec, it requires massive outplay and inexperienced opponents

 

in WvW:...yeah you can use celestial but still...even with the huge mobility trying to catch enemy offguard with hit and run tactics, you can still only afford 2-3x mistakes where the enemy can easily recover full HP without even attempting to dodge ( lol vindicator just randomly dodge as they can defend/attack at the same time) , other celestial builds have 2-3x more sustain and similar or better dmg from range in most instances.

 

Sure some PvEr now will emojy me as he thinks willbender is super fun in PvE but..meh...I am not a PvEr as such...EoD expansion continues to be something I wish to get refunded for

[Saiyan.1704]

I can't say I agree, especially on the sPvP side of things and especially for Ranked sPvP. Furthermore I hear people say WB is meta and "works better" in WvW but since I don't play that mode I'll let some one else talk about that.

First off WB dishes out a LOT of AoE damage when the getting gets good. Is it going to struggle with War/Cata/Vindi? Yes absolutely and so will 80% of other specs (hence the incoming nerfs) but believe me when I say that WB is extremely close to being a 5th pick meta class for AT comps. It is also a solid G3/Plat1 Rank spec. It's not going to be as OP as Cata/War/Vindi but we can run circles around those classes sometimes.

I know I post a lot of meme builds lately for funzies but This Build basically carried me to Plat. I've been looking for a condi hybrid to take care of glass oneshot classes and this does exactly that.

Willbender still needs buffs in areas that matter but it is far from being a worthless spec.

[SleepyBat.9034]

7 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Trying to understand the meaning of this elite now.......I see zero benefits in playing one other than dash around with gs/double sword in wvw...hoping to catch some target on low HP..otherwise they'd win by outsustain you....so just a worse core guardian with extra mobility, comparable to untamed as a worse core ranger with a bubble. Your only advantage in a fight is mobility and that's it:

 

In PvP: you now lack the dmg to justify the lack of sustain needed to duel others and you need engage skills to starts fights, and given the presence of busted specs like distortion spam virtuoso and CO, the only thing you can actually "burst" are bad thieves/core guardians as they lack on call OP active defenses. Overall I see the smoke...but not the boom...useless dashing WvW spec that can be easily outsustained like any other guardian spec, it requires massive outplay and inexperienced opponents

 

in WvW:...yeah you can use celestial but still...even with the huge mobility trying to catch enemy offguard with hit and run tactics, you can still only afford 2-3x mistakes where the enemy can easily recover full HP without even attempting to dodge ( lol vindicator just randomly dodge as they can defend/attack at the same time) , other celestial builds have 2-3x more sustain and similar or better dmg from range in most instances.

 

Sure some PvEr now will emojy me as he thinks willbender is super fun in PvE but..meh...I am not a PvEr as such...EoD expansion continues to be something I wish to get refunded for

There's no way you're going to convince me that Willbender is bad in WvW. Not a chance.

[Buran.3796]

   WB is not only very capable in WvW/PvP, but also extremely fun. It nails two of the classic handicaps of Guardians: low mobility (now we have a 25% increase pace as default, and tons of new mobility skills) and low HP (since the builds work very well with celestial, trailblazer, marauder and dragon stats, whitout losing much damage). WB also frees Guardians from having to run Traveler/Fireworks runes in order to not be a sitting duck.

   I've been using TB in solo PvE and is fantastic (very good burst, decent sustain), and in WvW I've been using marauder + dragon and so far so good: can kill things based on how you play, and when I found a Cata or Weaver which I wasn't able to kill after a long fight it surprised me due WB allowed me to disengage. 

  I found also that in some matchups (vs Necros and Mesmers) WB works for me way better than my Vindicator; probably due the high access to blind and cleanses.

[Gehenna.3625]

11 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

in WvW:...yeah you can use celestial but still...even with the huge mobility trying to catch enemy offguard with hit and run tactics, you can still only afford 2-3x mistakes where the enemy can easily recover full HP without even attempting to dodge ( lol vindicator just randomly dodge as they can defend/attack at the same time) , other celestial builds have 2-3x more sustain and similar or better dmg from range in most instances.

You can afford 2-3 mistakes? Wow, where can I sign up?

[Sagedurk.7358]

12 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Trying to understand the meaning of this elite now.......I see zero benefits in playing one other than dash around with gs/double sword in wvw...hoping to catch some target on low HP..otherwise they'd win by outsustain you....so just a worse core guardian with extra mobility, comparable to untamed as a worse core ranger with a bubble. Your only advantage in a fight is mobility and that's it:

 

In PvP: you now lack the dmg to justify the lack of sustain needed to duel others and you need engage skills to starts fights, and given the presence of busted specs like distortion spam virtuoso and CO, the only thing you can actually "burst" are bad thieves/core guardians as they lack on call OP active defenses. Overall I see the smoke...but not the boom...useless dashing WvW spec that can be easily outsustained like any other guardian spec, it requires massive outplay and inexperienced opponents

 

in WvW:...yeah you can use celestial but still...even with the huge mobility trying to catch enemy offguard with hit and run tactics, you can still only afford 2-3x mistakes where the enemy can easily recover full HP without even attempting to dodge ( lol vindicator just randomly dodge as they can defend/attack at the same time) , other celestial builds have 2-3x more sustain and similar or better dmg from range in most instances.

 

Sure some PvEr now will emojy me as he thinks willbender is super fun in PvE but..meh...I am not a PvEr as such...EoD expansion continues to be something I wish to get refunded for

You want the full expansion refunded because you don't like the current balance on willy?

 

kitten, refund everything I have spent on the game then, cause unlike WvW and PvP, willy has always sucked in PvE. Almost a full year since EoD release and I barely see any other willys in raids. The ones I do see? Almost every single one of them has played condi dps. No love for power, alac, or the meme heal build.

 

And the upcoming balance patch? It will buff willy more in PvP and WvW than PvE. The fact that you can have sustain, defense and offense virtues active all at once is going to be huge for comp gamemodes. For PvE? Best it will do is give alac willy more damage, and the problem with alac willy ain't even damage related

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Sagedurk.7358 said:

Best it will do is give alac willy more damage, and the problem with alac willy ain't even damage related

Genuinely asking here: can you please elaborate what you think the current problems with alac willbender are?

I find it quite sad that in whichever content (strike, dragon's end, etc.), whenever people are asking for alacdps you see basically every other possible alacdps build (untamed, mechanist, specter, even tempest!), but not even once did I see an alacdps willbender. I would like to see that build made functional and see it from time to time by players, but I personally lack the insight to figure out what's holding the build back that much.

[CraftyK.9062]

8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Genuinely asking here: can you please elaborate what you think the current problems with alac willbender are?

I find it quite sad that in whichever content (strike, dragon's end, etc.), whenever people are asking for alacdps you see basically every other possible alacdps build (untamed, mechanist, specter, even tempest!), but not even once did I see an alacdps willbender. I would like to see that build made functional and see it from time to time by players, but I personally lack the insight to figure out what's holding the build back that much.

IMO:

 

1 - (BEING FIXED ON THE 14TH) You have to pick between dealing damage with F1/F3 and providing Alacrity, which gimps your damage a bit.

1.a - You are forced to take the Virtues traitline and some Alac traits for both Virtues and Willbender which will make gearing/using Power less feasible and it will reduce Condition by default (Because you're not taking PW if you want to Alac)

 

2 - You're unable to provide Alacrity if you can't be dealing damage. This is not an issue with picks like Untamed, Mechanist, Specter, Tempest who are either unaffected or only partially hampered by not being able to hit something.

 

3- The amount of boons provided by Alac Willbender is lower compared to other Alac DPS which forces the rest to be covered (usually) by the Defensive Support. 

[Arheundel.6451]

15 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

There's no way you're going to convince me that Willbender is bad in WvW. Not a chance.

Yeah....celestial stats exist in wvw plus the additional F2, uses all boons and feel like a god....only that's what playing celestial means in WvW on literally any class that can make use of it. But we both know...you're being carried by the stats not the build, remove that concentration and suddenly your "fun" build would stop being so fun

[Yasai.3549]

23 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

in WvW:...yeah you can use celestial but still...even with the huge mobility trying to catch enemy offguard with hit and run tactics, you can still only afford 2-3x mistakes where the enemy can easily recover full HP without even attempting to dodge ( lol vindicator just randomly dodge as they can defend/attack at the same time) , other celestial builds have 2-3x more sustain and similar or better dmg from range in most instances.

So you're describing like, most WvW hit and run builds. 

You do realise that alot of roamer builds you meet aren't actually hit and run, they're more or less dueling builds focused on survival. Your complaint here is pretty invalid because WB has strengths in other areas than raw usage of celestial stats. For one, WB has insane mobility, almost on the same level of Thieves. That alone is huge for the damage they can do in short amount of time. You play WB, you are embodying a Thief playstyle, and guess what, Thieves are actually pretty bad vs Celestial survival bunker builds. Who would've guessed? 

Maybe you should start playing more smartly, watching which specs are easier match ups for you and get out of fights you can't win. 

[Arheundel.6451]

32 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

So you're describing like, most WvW hit and run builds. 

You do realise that alot of roamer builds you meet aren't actually hit and run, they're more or less dueling builds focused on survival. Your complaint here is pretty invalid because WB has strengths in other areas than raw usage of celestial stats. For one, WB has insane mobility, almost on the same level of Thieves. That alone is huge for the damage they can do in short amount of time. You play WB, you are embodying a Thief playstyle, and guess what, Thieves are actually pretty bad vs Celestial survival bunker builds. Who would've guessed? 

Maybe you should start playing more smartly, watching which specs are easier match ups for you and get out of fights you can't win. 

Yeah...that's what glorified +1 is called and guess what....a better designed class for that role is currently failing at that. This is how you used to play DH...this is just a reharsal of an old gameplay option and they spent like 4 years to come up with that. This is something I can come up with the week before releasing an expansion..and that's my point. This elite like most EoD specs are not something that requires 4 years worth of development...I hope this time around they use the time to actually design something useful..rather than watch old gameplay footage, add what few players cried about for years ( aka mobility in guardian case) and call it a day..

P.S WvW WB uses celestial too...otherwise they explode on contact

Edited February 12, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Sagedurk.7358]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Genuinely asking here: can you please elaborate what you think the current problems with alac willbender are?

I find it quite sad that in whichever content (strike, dragon's end, etc.), whenever people are asking for alacdps you see basically every other possible alacdps build (untamed, mechanist, specter, even tempest!), but not even once did I see an alacdps willbender. I would like to see that build made functional and see it from time to time by players, but I personally lack the insight to figure out what's holding the build back that much.

CraftyK touched on some of the things

So far, you must use the resolve virtue to be able to pump alac at all, which means you axe part of your damage due to not being able to have justice active, that is being fixed on tuesday. And it's the only thing being fixed so far

 

However, the big problems with alac willy are design flaws, not damage

• If you are unable to hit something and deal 0 or more damage, you won't proc alac
• We have access to almost no boons. Alac, fury, a low amount of might, regen that will likely be replaced by the healer, maybe some resolution, and that's pretty much it. When it comes to other supportive stuff, you can easily take SYG, and condi alac has condi cleansing built in through Purging Flames
• We are forced to take 2 different GM traits, just to be able to give alac in the first place. Phoenix Protocol, which directly competes against Tyrant's Momentum, AND Battle Presence, which at best competes against Permeating Wrath, at worst, competes against the whole Radiance traitline. On top of that, we need to further kitten damage by taking concentration. Not only is Power Alac not allowed to take Tyrant's Momentum, but it's not allowed to crit cap either. And now it needs aegis uptime for its damage potential instead of resolution
• Furthermore, due to tooltip descriptions, it can be easy to assume Holy Reckoning can be shared through BP, since Phoenix Protocol is, but no. All our master traits are self only. Being able to share Holy Reckoning would solve our might issue. Of course, if it's sharable, it needs a nerf, cause it's insane how much might it generates
• Speaking of traits, Absolute Resolve doesn't work properly with Phoenix Protocol. And yes, you would only take this trait if you're playing heal, but another problem with heal willy is that you have problems generating perma might, with staff and scepter. Thanks, Firebrand.

 

In case there's something I've missed, you can check my post history for other posts I've made regarding the problems with alac willy

[Buran.3796]

5 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Yeah....celestial stats exist in wvw plus the additional F2, uses all boons and feel like a god....only that's what playing celestial means in WvW on literally any class that can make use of it. But we both know...you're being carried by the stats not the build, remove that concentration and suddenly your "fun" build would stop being so fun

   ...So when I beat someone using my marauder/dragon Willbender in WvW I'm not being carried, but the fun I experience is false due I lack boon duration (which is hard to understand anyway since people inn this thread says that WB doesn't have boons to enlarge, anyway). 

   Seems just an opinion. Mine differs. WB isn't the top tier dog at the moment but I think that works fairly well and to me has an enjoyable gameplay.

[Ferus.3165]

10 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

WB isn't the top tier dog at the moment but I think that works fairly well and to me has an enjoyable gameplay.

This is WB. Especially in a group where others help you with heals, auras and cc you can dish out tremendous amounts of damage in a very short time and it's all aoe. WB is not really a 1v1 spec because you lack sustain and cc on your own but the burst you can dish out with dragon stats is unrivaled (maybe scepter ele has comparable damage). And tbh the only classes that are truly unbeatable as WB is cata/tempest, any well played thief and cele harbinger so it's not like WB is bad at 1v1 either.

[Saiyan.1704]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:22 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

Yeah....celestial stats exist in wvw plus the additional F2, uses all boons and feel like a god....only that's what playing celestial means in WvW on literally any class that can make use of it. But we both know...you're being carried by the stats not the build, remove that concentration and suddenly your "fun" build would stop being so fun

So there's decent metabuilds out there that you don't want to play on... and you're failing on the bad builds that you do play on, so much that you think the entire spec is worthless? After we're correcting you, you're backtracking by now calling WB a poorly designed spec? This is such a troll thread lol...

[Jake Orion.2049]

Willbender is absolutely SHREDDING everything in WvW right now. A WB/Catalyst duo was unstoppable in our land last night, easily beating vs 10 fights.  Unbelievable how strong the class is; mobility, evades, invuls, power, the works.  It's insanely hard to kill.

[Ferus.3165]

3 hours ago, Jake Orion.2049 said:

Willbender is absolutely SHREDDING everything in WvW right now. A WB/Catalyst duo was unstoppable in our land last night, easily beating vs 10 fights.  Unbelievable how strong the class is; mobility, evades, invuls, power, the works.  It's insanely hard to kill.

tbh noone can play 2vs10 if the 10 players are not laughably bad and unskilled. Maybe you mistook stonemist npc guards for real players?

[Saiyan.1704]

3 hours ago, Ferus.3165 said:

tbh noone can play 2vs10 if the 10 players are not laughably bad and unskilled. Maybe you mistook stonemist npc guards for real players?

Don't you know that class prowess is based off of how many Bronze players you can 1vX?

[Bunny.9834]

Welcome to being a thief player... +1 bot. 

[Player.2475]

What do you mean? WB is the most overpowered roaming spec I've seen in WvW.

[Saiyan.1704]

4 hours ago, Player.2475 said:

What do you mean? WB is the most overpowered roaming spec I've seen in WvW.

There's an unkillable Cata build that can literally 1v2 - 1v3. I've been playing around in WvW the last couple of days and saw that no one could take down this Ele.

[Player.2475]

11 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

There's an unkillable Cata build that can literally 1v2 - 1v3. I've been playing around in WvW the last couple of days and saw that no one could take down this Ele.

Yes, that's another problem with the balance. These two specs dominate roaming to the point that if you are playing anything other than them, you're playing with a serious handicap and have almost no chance unless the player is REALLY bad and/or outnumbered.