Wvw rewards: lipstick on the pig don't work. Problem is numbers imbalance.

[Piney.3076]

The spawn / camp siegers don't want these rewards. XP, karma, badges, pfff. They'd much rather prevent someone else getting em. Maybe they are bored, maybe they are bullies with no irl victims, I dunno. When I tell these players "let em have it then u can take it back", they angrily respond no.

For the rest of us trying to get those rewards, it's lipstick on the pig. It still ain't fun starting from scratch against a fully claimed, sieged and fortified map. Many give up, the numbers difference becomes worse. And it sinks in, a bunch ain't ever getting those rewards. A bunch don't want, a bunch can't get. Pointless. 

 

The solution is to address number imbalance. The outnumbering side invariably clears maps and heads from home garrison and keeps. Make those last objectives harder to take. Make home objectives easier to take back, for their home team. With naturally balancing difficulty, the fight can be more even, and more interesting for all. The bored players will have more to do, the spawn camped players will have an easier time getting started. 

There should be some easy ones. Buff outnumbered. Give siege razor "fire keep lord level cc". You just took that away from fire keep, just add it back to siege razor. Maybe add a "home advantage" buff to the garrison and keep, only for the home side? Gotta be dozens more like this.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Piney.3076
Tighten up wording, brevity is key

[Johje Holan.4607]

1 hour ago, Piney.3076 said:

When I tell these players "let em have it then u can take it back", they angrily respond no.

Not sure what you mean by this but my initial reaction is that this is wrong - let them take it so we can take it back is the problem.

1 hour ago, Piney.3076 said:

It still ain't fun starting from scratch against a fully claimed, sieged and fortified map. Many give up, the numbers difference becomes worse.

This is a problem.  And if Anet wants to get on a roll, after the scaling rewards update, they will do something about the snowball effect/ease of capturing structures deep in enemy territory/lack of comeback mechanics/lack of incentivizing attacking the strongest team.  

1 hour ago, Piney.3076 said:

The solution is to address number imbalance. The outnumbering side invariably clears maps and heads from home garrison and keeps. Make those last objectives harder to take. Make home objectives easier to take back, for their home team. With naturally balancing difficulty, the fight can be more even, and more interesting for all. The bored players will have more to do, the spawn camped players will have an easier time getting started. 

They will never be able to balance population.  Alliances won't do it.  So you are on the right track here.  Anet, you've got to give the home team some type of advantage when they are getting crushed (not unlike my super treb at spawn idea).

1 hour ago, Piney.3076 said:

There should be some easy ones. Buff outnumbered. Give siege razor "fire keep lord level cc". You just took that away from fire keep, just add it back to siege razor. Maybe add a "home advantage" buff to the garrison and keep, only for the home side? Gotta be dozens more like this.

Yes. Lots of ways they could address this.

[Piney.3076]

Heck, there is even a game design term for this solution. Rubber banding! It's the blue shell in Mario kart. As the distance between the first and last players increases, put in some crazy stuff. It won't matter, one of the top players will still win. But the last player blue shells the lead, and can still affect the game outcome if the top two are close. 

Don't let the first and last get so far apart that it's a boring wait for the game to end. The top player gets mean, the last stops playing. Put in a "rubber band" that pulls em closer and keeps em in the game. Even the 3rd still has fun gleefully nuking the top player. E.g. something like smc airship defense, but only the 3rd side can call it, and only the top team is affected. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Piney.3076

[Dawdler.8521]

When Anet want to fix that numbers imbalance the forum is like WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS WE WANT MORE REWARDS, SERVER PRIDE!!!

When Anet release small reward changes the forum is like WHY DONT YOU FIX NUMBERS IMBALANCE?!?!

At least lipstick on a pig make it prettier. A wig and fishnet stockings wouldnt hurt either.

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

When Anet want to fix that numbers imbalance

Why did this happen? Did I miss something?😉

[Sarrs.4831]

but theyre like... building a whole new system that they've now demoed multiple times to try to fix the number imbalance 😞

[Blackfish.7349]

8 hours ago, Piney.3076 said:

The spawn / camp siegers don't want these rewards. XP, karma, badges, pfff. They'd much rather prevent someone else getting em. Maybe they are bored, maybe they are bullies with no irl victims, I dunno. When I tell these players "let em have it then u can take it back", they angrily respond no.

So when players try to play competitive and defend a camp, you tell them: stand down, let enemy take it and we take it back??? WvW is about defending and attacking so we can win the game right? Or WvW is another pve map where all players collaborate agains AI mobs? I really dont understand what u are talking about, but if u mean what I read from your words...you are crying about a game mode you dont understand.

[Mabi black.1824]

9 hours ago, Piney.3076 said:

they angrily respond no.

My suggestion here is that you probably misunderstood who gave you that answer. Because there is no anger. There is fun, commitment or willingness to improve your style or way of playing, to test yourself, confront and eventually even beat your opponents (sometimes because the other times they will beat you). In a competitive PvP mode there is all this stuff, but not anger. As in real life, even here in anger is useless and does not take you anywhere.

As I have already suggested in the past if this game is not a reason for a great explosion of fun for you, but it is a reason for anger, immediately change the game.

It is not addressed personally to you, but it is a general reasoning.

[Nikola.3841]

I like that they added this 400%+ wxp inflation to game, so we casual players can catch rank of veteran players faster

[Absurd.2947]

Imbalanced numbers are, in most cases, rooted in skill imbalance. As in most servers have the numbers, they just decide not to play because they got spawn farmed by fewer players. There is no developer fix for low skill or morale. 

[solemn.9670]

11 hours ago, Piney.3076 said:

Heck, there is even a game design term for this solution. Rubber banding! It's the blue shell in Mario kart. As the distance between the first and last players increases, put in some crazy stuff. It won't matter, one of the top players will still win. But the last player blue shells the lead, and can still affect the game outcome if the top two are close. 

Don't let the first and last get so far apart that it's a boring wait for the game to end. The top player gets mean, the last stops playing. Put in a "rubber band" that pulls em closer and keeps em in the game. Even the 3rd still has fun gleefully nuking the top player. E.g. something like smc airship defense, but only the 3rd side can call it, and only the top team is affected. 

Oh dear....what have they done to you

This is adorable but we don't need this forced/unmerited rebalancing here just like we don't need it irl 🤷 it's my sandwich, I earned it, and I'm going to eat it now😼

Regarding the original post..

This seems awfully inspired by a recent personal experience. Someone matched with mag? It really comes through in your writing

Edited February 15, 2023 by solemn.9670

[Chaba.5410]

11 hours ago, Sarrs.4831 said:

but theyre like... building a whole new system that they've now demoed multiple times to try to fix the number imbalance 😞

Yea. It's like why even bother with this thread if the OP isn't going to be serious and acknowledge what's actually been happening to address population issues.

[Piney.3076]

Simple question, do the added rewards encourage more participation? 

All the nitpicks are pretty easily dismissed. 1. yeah they are working on alliances... but they added this rewards patch. Obviously they feel something should be done soone. 2. ok sure, maybe they spawncamp camp in delighted bliss. But they obviously have no interest in rewards for taking objectives, or they would do that. 3. sure, let's say it's because you are the most skilled player in existence, that's why others don't play. But shouldn't we want players to... play... the game? Who will you be more skilled than if no one is playing? Do you fear an even fight?

If it doesn't feel like the rewards address participation, then hey, got a suggestion in that first post at the top. 

I'm on in wvw every night, hoping for something, anything, to do. All too often there is nothing. It *could* be the glorious chaos I remember and enjoyed. But currently stuck in the same kitten boring nothing, with no one playing. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Piney.3076

[Corabelle.3254]

7 hours ago, Absurd.2947 said:

Imbalanced numbers are, in most cases, rooted in skill imbalance. As in most servers have the numbers, they just decide not to play because they got spawn farmed by fewer players. There is no developer fix for low skill or morale. 

TRUE. People get farmed by certain servers and then they convince themselves that they just have too many numbers and stop logging in when in reality they had equal numbers at the start but since they lost they start logging off causing a snowball effect.

[Evenge.4067]

16 minutes ago, Corabelle.3254 said:

TRUE. People get farmed by certain servers and then they convince themselves that they just have too many numbers and stop logging in when in reality they had equal numbers at the start but since they lost they start logging off causing a snowball effect.

OR..... every time numbers are even, the stacked server responds with double or triple the numbers. 

It's not a skill difference.  There are skilled players on every server,  but if a server has more skilled players than the other servers amount of skilled players,  it's still a numbers issue.

Keep telling yourselves that you are the most amazing players in the game, while actually being carried by overstacked numbers. 

[Johje Holan.4607]

43 minutes ago, Piney.3076 said:

Simple question, do the added rewards encourage more participation? 

All the nitpicks are pretty easily dismissed. 1. yeah they are working on alliances... but they added this rewards patch. Obviously they feel something should be done soone. 2. ok sure, maybe they spawncamp camp in delighted bliss. But they obviously have no interest in rewards for taking objectives, or they would do that. 3. sure, let's say it's because you are the most skilled player in existence, that's why others don't play. But shouldn't we want players to... play... the game? Who will you be more skilled than if no one is playing? Do you fear an even fight?

If it doesn't feel like the rewards address participation, then hey, got a suggestion in that first post at the top. 

I'm on in wvw every night, hoping for something, anything, to do. All too often there is nothing. It *could* be the glorious chaos I remember and enjoyed. But currently stuck in the same kitten boring nothing, with no one playing. 

 

27 minutes ago, Corabelle.3254 said:

TRUE. People get farmed by certain servers and then they convince themselves that they just have too many numbers and stop logging in when in reality they had equal numbers at the start but since they lost they start logging off causing a snowball effect.

So this is actually an interesting discussion to have.  There are many things going on in WvW that make it very interesting. 

There is certainly a skill difference among players. This fact exacerbates the problem of the "fair weather" or people logging off because they start losing. 

In WvW, everyone is combined together.  The complete noob who has never pvp'd a day in their life, to the person who lives for pvp and min-maxes, theory crafts, and has the twitch to make god cringe. 

In GW1, there were different pvp modes.  GvG, TA, RA, AB, FA, etc.  And they each had their own "flavor".  GvG for example was the top pvp'ers who organized.  Then you had AB and FA where the casual pvp'ers could gather and have fun in a low key setting.  My point is, they didn't often mix.  So you didn't have great players going up against noobs.  In WvW you have just that.

The capture and hold territory using siege is supposed to offset this disparity in skill.  And when populations are even, it does - but only when there are relatively equal numbers of skilled and less skilled players on each side.  If all the skilled players stack on one side, what do you think is going to happen?  Exactly as you are describing.  Moral of the story to skilled players for the upcoming alliances: Don't stack, spread out.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Johje Holan.4607

[lotus.5672]

8 hours ago, Absurd.2947 said:

Imbalanced numbers are, in most cases, rooted in skill imbalance. As in most servers have the numbers, they just decide not to play because they got spawn farmed by fewer players. There is no developer fix for low skill or morale. 

They hated him because he spoke the truth

[Corabelle.3254]

1 hour ago, Evenge.4067 said:

OR..... every time numbers are even, the stacked server responds with double or triple the numbers. 

It's not a skill difference.  There are skilled players on every server,  but if a server has more skilled players than the other servers amount of skilled players,  it's still a numbers issue.

Keep telling yourselves that you are the most amazing players in the game, while actually being carried by overstacked numbers. 

The only reason why they manage to have "double" or "triple" the numbers of the enemy server is that they've already demoralized a large portion of the enemy servers into not logging in. 

There's no fix for people not logging in to face a certain opponent.

 

[Piney.3076]

29 minutes ago, Corabelle.3254 said:

There's no fix for people not logging in to face a certain opponent.

Apparently true if you try nothing. Why not try something? Easy fix like throwing in a reward. They've already done that, but, feels like not working right? The exact same spawn camp. I mean, why even have the rest of the map? Just keep the spawn area. Because for most that is sooooo borrrrrring. That they don't play.

Mix it up a little. Start with an outnumbered buff, say 200 to all stats. If that gets 2 more people to play, keep going. Blaming the bored not-players, how's that working for ya?

Edited February 16, 2023 by Piney.3076

[Corabelle.3254]

1 hour ago, Piney.3076 said:

Apparently true if you try nothing. Why not try something? Easy fix like throwing in a reward. They've already done that, but, feels like not working right? The exact same spawn camp. I mean, why even have the rest of the map? Just keep the spawn area. Because for most that is sooooo borrrrrring. That they don't play.

Mix it up a little. Start with an outnumbered buff, say 200 to all stats. If that gets 2 more people to play, keep going. Blaming the bored not-players, how's that working for ya?

Did you just suggest adding stats to outnumbered? LOL

[Absurd.2947]

7 hours ago, Piney.3076 said:

Apparently true if you try nothing. Why not try something? Easy fix like throwing in a reward. They've already done that, but, feels like not working right? The exact same spawn camp. I mean, why even have the rest of the map? Just keep the spawn area. Because for most that is sooooo borrrrrring. That they don't play.

Mix it up a little. Start with an outnumbered buff, say 200 to all stats. If that gets 2 more people to play, keep going. Blaming the bored not-players, how's that working for ya?

You throw in more rewards and people will start complaining they can't get the rewards because they're getting rolled. What do they do next? They learn to play? Maybe switch classes from their rangers or mechas that get nullified by a reflect wall? They organize? Communicate? No, they transfer to piggyback and get those rewards. Just like with the tournaments years ago. 

That's the kind of a playerbase this game has. Just wait for a better matchup, there's no way around this.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Absurd.2947

[Shift Focus.9083]

10 hours ago, Corabelle.3254 said:

TRUE. People get farmed by certain servers and then they convince themselves that they just have too many numbers and stop logging in when in reality they had equal numbers at the start but since they lost they start logging off causing a snowball effect.

Well, I'm assuming you're from Maguuma, right? The thing I noticed is, Fri/Sat/Sun EBG and other Bls for the most part are fine, I haven't seen much spawn camping if at all, and I've seen Maguuma lose SMC even. The problem is during the week, Monday - Thursday, is when most servers don't really have enough people and so Maguuma dominates but mostly sticks to Ebg. I'm not sure if a lot of players on Maguuma don't have jobs or just have a lot of time on their hands or whatever, but yeah it's a numbers thing during the week for sure. To top it off, all of the siege building and spamming treb shots and ballistas at people at spawn is pretty stupid as well. Literally will be like 5 people at spawn with 20 Maguuma camping and using siege. What about the exit to the left or right? You'll be followed by at least 10 people. Sentries and radars on tower with EWPS makes it even more difficult to get anywhere. Literally it's like no offense, I know some great people on Mag, but a lot of people are toxic on there and live on the game all day. In the end its ArenaNets fault, they could balance better, but doubt it'll happen, as I've seen they play on that server a bit too. Population during the week is the true issue which won't be addressed. Servers need condensing. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Shift Focus.9083

[Mabi black.1824]

20 hours ago, Absurd.2947 said:

Imbalanced numbers are, in most cases, rooted in skill imbalance. As in most servers have the numbers, they just decide not to play because they got spawn farmed by fewer players. There is no developer fix for low skill or morale. 

Someone here agreed with your reasoning, and I'm pretty sure they're all NA players. I am in EU, and I'm sorry to say but your reasoning is completely wrong. Let me explain with some approximate numbers to make me understand better. My server has a capacity to generate about 40,000 to 50,000 K+D per week. week after week, when it has a link and likewise when it does not have a link. when you play for 2 months without a link you will find and see your opponents, usually all 2 opponents who at the end of the week generate a flow that can go beyond 100,000 K+D. None of our players drop out of the week, and therefore you continue to generate your usual stream of 40 or 50,000K+D. Do you think you have even the slightest chance of winning? Of course not.

So your conclusion that ANET has no chance to solve or improve anything in terms of '' balance between servers '' I consider it completely wrong and out of place.Because surely ANET can make a difference and greatly improve all this in EU. Indeed, the right question is why he has not found time to solve them in many years.

In EU you don't have to do anything else, if you don't first face and solve this absurd condition, if we want to consider large-scale player competition one more thing on the WWW EU platform.

Because the obvious consequence is that you make everything useless, win or lose. Personally I could also be in T1 with the strongest link ever seen in WWW history. But if I have the awareness that in T5 there is a team without links that is able to generate a flow that does not even come close to my 50%, winning or losing still has no meaning for me.

All this could change next week, we do not even need alliances for this, and we know that we can only get it if Anet decides to grant it. The player or large groups of players can do absolutely nothing to avoid this condition.

If you want to solve this obvious, evident, useless, stupid problem of balance you just have to agree with Anet. No one else can help you.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[misterman.1530]

20 hours ago, Absurd.2947 said:

Imbalanced numbers are, in most cases, rooted in skill imbalance. As in most servers have the numbers, they just decide not to play because they got spawn farmed by fewer players. There is no developer fix for low skill or morale. 

Yes. You are correct. The skill imbalanced tend to congregate onto overly-populated servers. Therefore, their demonstrable lack of skill is hidden by their overpowering numbers. I guarantee the lower population servers have, for the most part, learned to fight even strength or even a bit outnumbered. I also guarantee that, with few exceptions, 50 players on a T1 server would probably be beat by 50 players on a lower tier server every time. We wiped red yesterday in every skirmish and we had even numbers (in fact, they may have had a few more than us).

So, you are definitely correct: imbalanced numbers hide a severe skill imbalance.

Edited February 16, 2023 by misterman.1530
typo

[Corabelle.3254]

3 hours ago, Shift Focus.9083 said:

Well, I'm assuming you're from Maguuma, right? The thing I noticed is, Fri/Sat/Sun EBG and other Bls for the most part are fine, I haven't seen much spawn camping if at all, and I've seen Maguuma lose SMC even. The problem is during the week, Monday - Thursday, is when most servers don't really have enough people and so Maguuma dominates but mostly sticks to Ebg. I'm not sure if a lot of players on Maguuma don't have jobs or just have a lot of time on their hands or whatever, but yeah it's a numbers thing during the week for sure. To top it off, all of the siege building and spamming treb shots and ballistas at people at spawn is pretty stupid as well. Literally will be like 5 people at spawn with 20 Maguuma camping and using siege. What about the exit to the left or right? You'll be followed by at least 10 people. Sentries and radars on tower with EWPS makes it even more difficult to get anywhere. Literally it's like no offense, I know some great people on Mag, but a lot of people are toxic on there and live on the game all day. In the end its ArenaNets fault, they could balance better, but doubt it'll happen, as I've seen they play on that server a bit too. Population during the week is the true issue which won't be addressed. Servers need condensing. 

I am not. I am on BP.