make vulture stance break stun and lower sharpening stone to 24sec.

[Eddie.9143]

would be noice. thx

[Abyssisis.3971]

I think you mean griffon stance, vulture stance grants might and inflicts poison.

[Eddie.9143]

3 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I think you mean griffon stance, vulture stance grants might and inflicts poison.

nope i mean vulture, would be nice to be able to take an offensive option that breaks a stun. griffon stance is kinda lame af too tho now that im reading it lol

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Griffon is meme, yes.

I can agree with Vulture Stance CD reduction, and (obviously) agree with Sharpening Stone CD reduction 😃. 

They also need to fix Vulture Stance so that spread attacks like splitblade give 5 stacks of poison / might and not one.  It puts it in line with how sharpening stone works (i.e. sharpening stone + axe #2 you get 10 bleed stacks) and gives a good burst option.

Not sure Vulture needs to break stun though.  If anything, AoE weakness would go better with the poison theme and leave the stun breaking to Dolyak.  

[Abyssisis.3971]

1 hour ago, Eddie.9143 said:

nope i mean vulture, would be nice to be able to take an offensive option that breaks a stun. griffon stance is kinda lame af too tho now that im reading it lol

Then no. It be an awkward skill to use being a break stun and an offensive skill… using outside cc would be a waste of a break stun, but waiting to use it in case of a cc would be weird as well.

[Jobber.6348]

Vulture stance: no 

Sharpening stone: yes 

[Jobber.6348]

27 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

They also need to fix Vulture Stance so that spread attacks like splitblade give 5 stacks of poison / might and not one.  It puts it in line with how sharpening stone works (i.e. sharpening stone + axe #2 you get 10 bleed stacks) and gives a good burst option.

There's nothing to fix here. The skill explicitly states a 0.25s interval of application. You want to get multiple with Splitblade, you have to make Splitblade stagger. Big doubt it's ever gonna happen if you ask for interval removal. That's something every interval based skill would LOVE to have and no way it's gonna happen. 

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

There's nothing to fix here. The skill explicitly states a 0.25s interval of application. You want to get multiple with Splitblade, you have to make Splitblade stagger. Big doubt it's ever gonna happen if you ask for interval removal. That's something every interval based skill would LOVE to have and no way it's gonna happen. 

It also sounds like a horrible idea for balancing....

Sharpening stone doesn't have an interval because it is limited by a stack mechanic. You get 10 stacks of bleeding from it, once these are used up it ends. No matter if you apply them all at once or spread the application over some seconds, you always get exactly 10 stacks of bleeding.

Vulture stance as a stance has a duration. If you proc it off cooldown (with that I mean you trigger the poison every 1/4 seconds), you can potentially apply 24 stacks of poison just with it's base duration.

Then you can buff it's duration further with leader of the pack, giving you potentially 28 stacks of poison in PvE/PvP and 36 stacks of poison in WvW.

Leader of the pack also allows you to share vulture stance with allies around you for reduced duration, increasing the number of poison stacks this skill provides even further.

Now if the interval would be removed.... then the number of poison stacks from this skill would become way too high and it became way too bursty as well.

Then we also have to consider the potential with combinations. The trait predator's cunning steals life whenever you apply poison on an enemy. If vulture stance had it's interval removed, this would also lead to way higher burst damage and burst healing for the soulbeast with this trait.

Not to mention outnumbered fights... with the interval removed, vulture stance would spread it's poison on every hit of AoE/cleave attacks and every application there would also proc predator's cunning. So not only would this skill become insanely good at bursting single targets, but it would also provide extreme amounts of AoE damage and make you basically immortal in outnumbered fights thanks to predator's cunning.

Take splitblade as an example. It pierces and every axe can hit up to 5 targets. So if shot into a big group of enemies, this skill alone can already hit 25 times (5 axes, 5 targets per axe). Predator's cunning heals for 170 per poison stacks applied and vulture stance without interval would make each hit apply poison. This combination means predator's cunning heals you for 4250 with splitblade here, without any healing power.

There is no way Anet is going to do that. There are very good reasons why vulture stance has an interval for it's poison application.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

There's nothing to fix here. The skill explicitly states a 0.25s interval of application. You want to get multiple with Splitblade, you have to make Splitblade stagger. Big doubt it's ever gonna happen if you ask for interval removal. That's something every interval based skill would LOVE to have and no way it's gonna happen. 

 

Could make it a stack mechanic then.  Vulture stance would proc 10 stacks of poison and AoE weakness, along with keeping might on hit at the interval.  

All I know is right now it's only taken in PvE, as there's no defensive component for it to be taken in competitive.  

[Jobber.6348]

34 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Could make it a stack mechanic then.  Vulture stance would proc 10 stacks of poison and AoE weakness, along with keeping might on hit at the interval.  

All I know is right now it's only taken in PvE, as there's no defensive component for it to be taken in competitive.  

1. Not everything needs a defensive and offensive component in the same skill. That's called skill bloat and stuff like that won't ever fly, so good luck asking for it to happen. 

 

2. Defeats the point of a stance where it puts the user into a mode for a set duration as a sort of combat modifier. Making it a stack based skill would mean it would not longer be a stance. In fact, it will be a direct nerf to the skill because as it is right now, queueing up Rapid Fire or Whirling Defence together with Vulture stance can rack you up to a maximum of 24 stacks, and with the trait, up to 36. 

 

You have no idea what you're asking for. You're meant to use Vulture stance along with multihitting attacks, so I have no idea why you try to "burst it" when multihit frequency is already a burst. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Gotejjeken.1267]

50 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

1. Not everything needs a defensive and offensive component in the same skill. That's called skill bloat and stuff like that won't ever fly, so good luck asking for it to happen. 

 

2. Defeats the point of a stance where it puts the user into a mode for a set duration as a sort of combat modifier. Making it a stack based skill would mean it would not longer be a stance. In fact, it will be a direct nerf to the skill because as it is right now, queueing up Rapid Fire or Whirling Defence together with Vulture stance can rack you up to a maximum of 24 stacks, and with the trait, up to 36. 

 

You have no idea what you're asking for. You're meant to use Vulture stance along with multihitting attacks, so I have no idea why you try to "burst it" when multihit frequency is already a burst. 

Oh no, I know what I'm asking for, because right now the skill is utter trash.  Not used in any build anywhere.

Firstly, I don't know why you give two power attacks of an example of how to apply a condi burst, but ok.  Your condi 'burst' skills on ranger are going to be either poison volley or split blade, if you are running rapid fire or whirling defense it's for the power damage and not for randomly applying poison.  

Also, the stacking figure is also extremely facetious as I'm guessing you've taken that number from the wiki based on Leader of the Pack sharing; you can't stack 36 with a single soulbeast and I'm trying to find a situation where even 24 is possible, since even on shortbow it doesn't double up the poison stacks when you use OWP.

Also, since poison fields already apply weakness on combo I'm also not sure where you are getting 'bloat' from by adding weakness as a defensive component.  Weakness is already found on axe 3 with chill and bleed, and on warhorn with daze, so your 'bloat' has been present for a long time on ranger, and is consistent with their balancing.  

Edited February 20, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Jobber.6348]

18 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Oh no, I know what I'm asking for, because right now the skill is utter trash.  Not used in any build anywhere.

Firstly, I don't know why you give two power attacks of an example of how to apply a condi burst, but ok.  Your condi 'burst' skills on ranger are going to be either poison volley or split blade, if you are running rapid fire or whirling defense it's for the power damage and not for randomly applying poison.  

Also, the stacking figure is also extremely facetious as I'm guessing you've taken that number from the wiki based on Leader of the Pack sharing; you can't stack 36 with a single soulbeast and I'm trying to find a situation where even 24 is possible, since even on shortbow it doesn't double up the poison stacks when you use OWP.

Also, since poison fields already apply weakness on combo I'm also not sure where you are getting 'bloat' from by adding weakness as a defensive component.  Weakness is already found on axe 3 with chill and bleed, and on warhorn with daze, so your 'bloat' has been present for a long time on ranger, and is consistent with their balancing.  

Condi Soulbeasts in WvW and PvP I've met use LB and Dual Axe, so whatever it is, it's working for them.

 

I think PvE Fractal and Raids use Vulture stance and dagger/shortbow, and not using Splitblade MH Axe, so idk why you're so fixated on using Splitblade to "burst condi" on Vulture Stance.

 

Either way, it's very possible to get many hits off Vulture for easily 20+ stacks, it's called using One Wolf Pack together with Vulture stance. 

[Mic.1897]

9 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

Then no. It be an awkward skill to use being a break stun and an offensive skill… using outside cc would be a waste of a break stun, but waiting to use it in case of a cc would be weird as well.

You mean like QZ lol

Edited February 20, 2023 by Mic.1897

[Gotejjeken.1267]

33 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Condi Soulbeasts in WvW and PvP I've met use LB and Dual Axe, so whatever it is, it's working for them.

 

I think PvE Fractal and Raids use Vulture stance and dagger/shortbow, and not using Splitblade MH Axe, so idk why you're so fixated on using Splitblade to "burst condi" on Vulture Stance.

 

Either way, it's very possible to get many hits off Vulture for easily 20+ stacks, it's called using One Wolf Pack together with Vulture stance. 

 

Fixated, becuase that's the literal way you use the weapon--see the highest benchmark condi on snowcrows:

Condition Untamed Build | Guild Wars 2 Ranger Builds | Snow Crows

You use splitblade and sharp stone constantly, and cancel WD ASAP as it's a filler skill.  

I know, I know--but that's an Untamed! Well, here's the 10k less condi slb variant:

Condition Soulbeast Build | Guild Wars 2 Ranger Builds | Snow Crows

Which is...oh yeah, opening with poison volley then using dagger (and poison volley) on a loop while you share vulture stance with others.  

Since this is snowcrows and these are the highest raid benchmarks and the ideal situations to get the most stacks out of anything I'd think it's also the best debate reference we have for this.

Competitive is a bit muddier (sometimes literally when it comes to ranger), but stacking poison damage there is a bit of a bold choice when either pure power (pvp) or hybrid/cele (wvw) is usually what I face/see recommended--and on those it's the power damage doing the killing, not poison stacks. 

Which I think also falls in line with what you are seeing with OWP as you'd want the power damage to run that skill, its not great for pure condi application when you can just entangle someone into viper's nest or something.  

Edited February 20, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Zyreva.1078]

Not everything that isn't run by "meta" builds is bad per se. And both griffon and vulture stance are fine as they are. Maybe a slight cd reduction for vulture stance in PvP/WvW to 25s would be reasonable, but i'd rather see op stuff adressed instead of constant buffs and more powercreep.

Edited February 20, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Abyssisis.3971]

2 hours ago, Mic.1897 said:

You mean like QZ lol

Kinda, it’s not quite as bad as putting a stun break on vultures tho.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

5 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Not everything that isn't run by "meta" builds is bad per se. And both griffon and vulture stance are fine as they are. Maybe a slight cd reduction for vulture stance in PvP/WvW to 25s would be reasonable, but i'd rather see op stuff adressed instead of constant buffs and more powercreep.

Imo vulture needs a damage boost to allow condi soulbeast to more reliably stand on its own. The damage isn't inherently bad but it partially relies on your allies ALL being competent enough to make the most out of your vulture stance (since you run stanceshare for the duration to make up a nerf from a while back). 37k is a great dps benchmark- 32k is your solo dps benchmark. Quite the gap, and variance to that degree isn't the greatest, in addition to the fact that you have to educate new players on why you effectively have 2 benchmark numbers.

[Mell.4873]

I don't really want to weigh in here but I think people are far to focused on such miniscule charges. 

I mean atleast your entire profession isn't missing a dodge like with Mirage. Debating over cooldowns is a pretty fine luxery to have. 

Neither Druid or Soulbeast are unplayable with of the new changes if anything they where all very strong picks and probably needed a little nerf. I'm saying this even though I main them. 

[Zyreva.1078]

17 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Imo vulture needs a damage boost to allow condi soulbeast to more reliably stand on its own. The damage isn't inherently bad but it partially relies on your allies ALL being competent enough to make the most out of your vulture stance (since you run stanceshare for the duration to make up a nerf from a while back). 37k is a great dps benchmark- 32k is your solo dps benchmark. Quite the gap, and variance to that degree isn't the greatest, in addition to the fact that you have to educate new players on why you effectively have 2 benchmark numbers.

According to SC it's 38k with allies and 34k without. When taking Oppressive Superiority it should be arround 35-36k, so not that big of a difference to the stance share version and a perfectly viable alternative for pugging. Also buffing Vulture Stance would increase the gap, not decrease it.

[asterix.9614]

Yes! This please! Especially sharpening stone 24sec cd.

[Lazze.9870]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:20 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Condi Soulbeasts in WvW and PvP I've met use LB and Dual Axe, so whatever it is, it's working for them.

People that use LB on condi builds are stubborn meme players.

Rapid Fire with SS and GT bleed/poison stacks before running back to a wall.

[Lazze.9870]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:17 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Neither Druid or Soulbeast are unplayable with of the new changes if anything they where all very strong picks and probably needed a little nerf. I'm saying this even though I main them. 

No, they don't need any nerfs. If Cata/Tempest is S tier in PvP, these two are low B at best in the current meta. I'm not saying that because I necessarily want ranger buffs, it's just how things are at the moment.

Reduce avatar cooldown for druid and it would be a strong A tier in PvP imo. That's all it needs. Compensational nerfs (if needed) should be directed at Celestial Shadow, as it should have been done years ago instead of screwing around with the avatar cooldown.

Soulbeast? IDK, Griffon and Vulture stance are just fine in my opinon. Griffon is a bit niche, but I'd never call it weak.

If Anet want to push condi soulbeast, I don't get why they haven't made Furious Strenght (minor trait) affect condi damage yet. Why does an elite spec that can build for both condi and power get a minor that only affects one damage type when Revenant literally get the same trait for all damage types. That's the kind of low fruit they can start working on.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Lazze.9870

[ventress.4879]

On 3/14/2023 at 1:30 AM, Lazze.9870 said:

If Anet want to push condi soulbeast, I don't get why they haven't made Furious Strenght (minor trait) affect condi damage yet. Why does an elite spec that can build for both condi and power get a minor that only affects one damage type when Revenant literally get the same trait for all damage types. That's the kind of low fruit they can start working on.

I don't know which game mode you mean here but Soulbeast in particular is A tier in most game modes with Untamed not far behind. 

You have to focus on what Ranger is used for. Ranger is played in two ways, set up and pay off like with Soulbeast/Untamed or a snowball effect like with Untamed/Druid. 

A perfect example is the longer you PvP a Druid the more disadvantage you have since his cooldowns are low and the sustained healing is high. This is why the best strategies for Druid involve stalling a fight with roots or traps. 

Another good example is the chain CC on Untamed in PvE. It is possible to give youself almost all boons in the game plus 2 stacks of stability permanently after about 10 seconds of fighting. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by ventress.4879

[InsaneQR.7412]

I think griffon would be cool if it would give you a longer evade and give you quickness and vigor flat. Then give griffon a short CD to basically make a third instant dodge you would need to slot.

An instant evade is cool and in this way it would be interesting for certain combos but atm the evade time isnt long enough and the might gain is negligable. 

[Peter.3901]

Sharpening stone 24cd for sure, or even 20.