What do PvP Mesmers think about the Mantra revert?

[ascii.1369]

The same poll was posted in the professions section without differentiating between Guardian/Mesmer or PvE/PvP. I was wondering if the results are any different for the Mesmer PvP community. For the people interessted here is the original poll: 

 

[Waffles.5632]

Objectively, the revert is better for pvp, so I ended up choosing that. By that I mean, instant cast ammo abilities aren't really healthy for any pvp environment, and so there should be some form of interaction, like charging up the mantra.

However personally I wish they would stop changing Mesmer Mantras based off Firebrand Mantras. This is twice now Mesmer gets shafted because Anet decided Mantras needed to be changed for Firebrand.

It's extremely frustrating when the class you play feels like an afterthought to the devs in charge. Just how I feel.

I look at Mesmer Mantras and I just feel bad using them. Idk how to exactly describe it yet other than for me it ruins the flow and rhythm of the class, but there's more to it than just that.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Gesbo.6420]

2 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Objectively, the revert is better for pvp, so I ended up choosing that. By that I mean, instant cast ammo abilities aren't really healthy for any pvp environment, and so there should be some form of interaction, like charging up the mantra.

However personally I wish they would stop changing Mesmer Mantras based off Firebrand Mantras. This is twice now Mesmer gets shafted because Anet decided Mantras needed to be changed for Firebrand.

It's extremely frustrating when the class you play feels like an afterthought to the devs in charge. Just how I feel.

I look at Mesmer Mantras and I just feel bad using them. Idk how to exactly describe it yet other than for me it ruins the flow and rhythm of the class, but there's more to it than just that.

Yes yes yes a million times yes. When they initially changed the mantras (and turned them into shouts) they were alright skills. Mantra of Distraction was a great way to get your Diversion back and with the change they completely scrapped the idea or thought about mesmers extra efects becasue their new elite spec (their new selling point) is suffering.

 

I am a firm believer that different skill types should be unique. Removing the cast time completely removes the unique flavour of the skill.but for 2 second cast time the skill needs to be doing my taxes at least...

 

I propose either halving the cast time or  giving them another charge and buffing the effect a little bit. Or even bring that weird 400 thoughness back.

Mantra of Concentration used to grant quickness which was nifty. There needs to be something that can make the cast time appealing for high risk high reward type of gameplay...

[Yasai.3549]

2 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I look at Mesmer Mantras and I just feel bad using them. Idk how to exactly describe it yet other than for me it ruins the flow and rhythm of the class, but there's more to it than just that

Maybe what annoys people is that it's such a long channeled skill, and that's prone to interruptions which is always a bad feeling. In an action combat game where the flow of combat is quick and reactionary, channeling a skill like that is very flow-breaking. 

 

Least they could do for QoL is that if you were previously interrupted for the channel of the Mantra, your next attempt is sped up by default. Maybe have this be added to Restorative Mantras as a trait benefit. 

 

[Gesbo.6420]

15 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Maybe what annoys people is that it's such a long channeled skill, and that's prone to interruptions which is always a bad feeling. In an action combat game where the flow of combat is quick and reactionary, channeling a skill like that is very flow-breaking. 

 

Least they could do for QoL is that if you were previously interrupted for the channel of the Mantra, your next attempt is sped up by default. Maybe have this be added to Restorative Mantras as a trait benefit. 

 

Instant cast, no animation or option for reaction is just as bad on the reseaving end, but my issue with the mesmer mantras is that they have longer cast times than every single elite skill and not nearly as strong as such.

[ascii.1369]

52 minutes ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

Instant cast, no animation or option for reaction is just as bad on the reseaving end

Yes, also the more instant abilities Mesmer has, the more likely we are to pull off one shot combos by spamming them all. That's in part why certain aspects of Mesmer can't be buffed. I would be perfectly happy with a cast time between 1/4 to 1/2 a second on charges if we can in turn drop the recharge cast time to something like 1 second.

[Delrago.2098]

From a competitive side it’s a lot more  healthy for the game. I think a lot of players are upset about it because charging mantras is something that takes a lot of game knowledge to charge safely at the correct times. How ever I will say they could use a little tweaking mostly heal mantra and power mantra( range and target requirements hurt power mantra a lot) as there’s really just not a good reason to take them right now. The charge times can be a little long specially if you have slow or chill but If the charge time stays the same it wouldn’t be the end of the world. 

[Mihile.7609]

Don't mind it on FB. Hate it for Mesmer. There was a reason why they removed the charges before, right? Lmao.

[apharma.3741]

11 hours ago, Kain.9136 said:

Don't mind it on FB. Hate it for Mesmer. There was a reason why they removed the charges before, right? Lmao.

Yes, for FB xD

[Jitters.9401]

Mantras are absolutely useless for solo roaming now.  

(1) They are incredibly easy to interrupt.

(2) Preparing mantras before combat is pathetic as fudge. (a) the supposed heal (that is pathetically weak) is of no use.  (b) you waste your weak buffs, that really are useless anyway. 

 

The trait "Restorative Mantras" is absolutely useless for solo roaming.  I had to take "Medic's Feedback" on the chance that I come across fight where I can revive a downed person.  

 

I know people are trying to say "don't use the last charge" (that is basically saying take a skill and only use 50% of the value)  and "the false news on how mantras are still powerful.  They aren't. Not even remotely close.

 

Before the revert I would could attack a two necro roaming team and expect to win while on my two mantra build.  I have done it multiple times.

 

And yesterday, I attacked and defeated 2 necros while not using mantras. 

 

Had I been on my 2 mantra build I would have never been able to charge nor use either one because of all the interrupts that I had to deal with. 

I would have lost hands down.

 

So...

 

If I was winning fights against 2 necros (doesn't matter which necro builds) with 2 insta cast mantras. ....

 

Winning fights against 2 necros not using any mantras...

 

But will lose a fight against 2 necros with this mantra revert while running 1 or 2 mantras. 

 

Then I fail to see how this revert is a positive thing and that mantras are still viable for solo roamers. 

 

Because it is not and they are not.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Jitters.9401

[Terrorhuz.4695]

I don't see the option "mantras are mechanically perfect, just make them usable without target and you're gucci"

[Justine.6351]

20 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I don't see the option "mantras are mechanically perfect, just make them usable without target and you're gucci"

Because the title has "pvp" in it.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

47 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Because the title has "pvp" in it.

Bold of you to assume I played anything other than "MESMER IN PVP" for the past 6 years.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I don't see the option "mantras are mechanically perfect, just make them usable without target and you're gucci"

It's there. That's literally the third option. 

[dead.7638]

Mantra casting old new.   Adapt to it or don’t.   You can get an extra rupt out of the current state of mantra with the cd reduction.   Does it take more thought?   Yes.   Are you going to cast it while being obliterated?   I hope not.   Was that going to save you from being obliterated, never did.   Any burst Mesmer using mantra will figure it out eventually.   If you’re using distortion anyway just cast it off given the opportunity.   You should already be playing thinking of optimizing opportunity on Mesmer in general.   Positioning is a constant for the class so learn to play it better.

[dead.7638]

Thanks for the confusion face.   Given the state of Mesmer as a whole I’m pumping out more dps with higher crits than I’ve seen in years on virt.   A better chrono can do even more with CS.   At the moment I’m taking the bad with the good.   The bump to egotism is huge buff.   Condi dmg can now be used on any Mesmer spec.   People are creating new build ideas.   To simple say Mesmer is a complete kitten show atm is untrue.   I’m willing to give anet some more time to implement some big changes, even tho Mesmer isn’t the main focus.   Is the past Mesmer was basically a golden child that never got touched with harsh nerfs.   

[Woltarion.6829]

I'm very happy with the mantra revert, especially because I use mantras as a "high risk high reward" spell in PvP. The mantra of recovery and mantra of resolve are much better with the revert.

[Jitters.9401]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:39 AM, dead.7638 said:

Mantra casting old new.   Adapt to it or don’t.   You can get an extra rupt out of the current state of mantra with the cd reduction.   Does it take more thought?   Yes.   Are you going to cast it while being obliterated?   I hope not.   Was that going to save you from being obliterated, never did.   Any burst Mesmer using mantra will figure it out eventually.   If you’re using distortion anyway just cast it off given the opportunity.   You should already be playing thinking of optimizing opportunity on Mesmer in general.   Positioning is a constant for the class so learn to play it better.

Your last sentence us what people say when they really do not understand what they are talking about, and it puts your wvw experience as suspect (like little to none) unless you provide your example of fighting 1 and/or 2 opponents. 

I will read it the moment I see one exists. 

 

Positioning? 

Distortion?

 

I will just ask my opponents (yes, more than 1 is what I fight much of the time) to wait while I find something to LOS behind so I can charge my mantras. Doesn't work that way, sadly. You need to be mobile.  You need to be quick. 2.25 charge time is neither.  

 

Using Distortion.  That's fine as long as you can wait the the base 50 seconds or 42 second (42.5 I think) reduced recharge between mantra recharges. 

You really need to test things out before writing them here. Feasibility in action is not the same as Feasibility in thought. 

 

 

I did figure it out. To be most effective I stopped using mantras.... and at no point in WvW have I come across any mesmer that uses even one mantra now let alone 2 like I ran. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Jitters.9401

[Gaiawolf.8261]

If you are not using your ambush skill during distortion in wvw, you are already losing or on the run.

Sadly, I stopped using mantras as well.

[ascii.1369]

On 3/5/2023 at 12:20 PM, Woltarion.6829 said:

I'm very happy with the mantra revert, especially because I use mantras as a "high risk high reward" spell in PvP. The mantra of recovery and mantra of resolve are much better with the revert.

Those are precisely the mantras that weren’t used much in PvP before and they’re not gonna be used now. Too many skills outperform them hard. High risk, yes, but it’s not really a high reward situation if you can get similar effects without the drawbacks.

[apharma.3741]

20 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Those are precisely the mantras that weren’t used much in PvP before and they’re not gonna be used now. Too many skills outperform them hard. High risk, yes, but it’s not really a high reward situation if you can get similar effects without the drawbacks.

Pretty much, those mantras are more useful in WvW for large scale fights to be honest and I'd honestly be fine with that if support chrono wasn't a (boon) stripper with random other skills thrown on because they are so unique.
Only 2 times have I seen double offensive mantra be close to competitive was with harmonious mantras and then once again when they removed the charge mechanic but I still rarely saw distraction and pain, only on low skill one shot mesmers who usually failed and ran away.

[Jitters.9401]

21 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

but I still rarely saw distraction and pain, only on low skill one shot mesmers who usually failed and ran away.

Those were the two I ran on my mesmer but I was built for survival and no one hit wonder.  My toughness was about 1900. 

 

Prioroty #1 My main goal with the mantras was the 1300 point heal on use. 

 

Priority #2 Mantra of Pain was used to remove aegis if they had it, but also to apply vulnerability if the did not have aegis. 

 

Priority #3. Mantras of Distraction.  I actually never expected it to daze anyone.  I used it for an aegis removal tool + heal. 

 

I survived so many 2 vs Me fights because of the heals. 

 

I actually think I figured out something more deadly than the two mantra build, but if I could mix match what I run now with what i ran then..... whoooo. I'd be more deadly than I am now,.as impossible as it sounds 😂

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

What better?

 

It just came down to making them again complete garbage in almost every situation. It makes the same kitten as before the patch, meaning only using one charge in order to trigger the effect and hope not to trigger the second one for casting 2,5 seconds again.

 

I want to remind to the 2021 changes that brought the former logic in and its description:

 

 

We acknowledge that there are significant flaws with the core gameplay innate to mantra skills, and that this problem was exacerbated in Path of Fire™ when we switched mesmer mantras to an ammunition system, creating an incentive to not use the final charge. This is a poor user experience and something we have hoped for a long time to be able to come back and address.

Needing to prepare for combat by using a sequence of skills with a long casting time is not fun, and in most cases, using the final charge of a mantra in combat felt like a mistake. It not only denied your use of the skill for a long time, but it also required you to prepare your mantras again after the cooldown expired. Instead of being rewarding to use, mantras have been a chore; something you need to remember to do every time you change maps or respawn, or deal with after every /gg in a fractal, strike, or raid. Holding your group up while you again prepare each of your mantras never feels great either!

 

During the development of this balance patch, we tried several alternatives, including automatic preparation while out of combat. Ultimately, we found that the best course of action was to simplify the mantra skills and remove the preparation mechanic altogether, as this ensures that we can have consistent behavior between mesmer and firebrand mantras, as well as consistent core functionality between PvE and PvP game modes. As a result, in this balance update, we have decided to rework both mesmer and firebrand mantras into simple ammunition skills.

 

 

 

Just a question here, has anything changed during the past 2 years for why this logic doesn't apply anymore?

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 3/9/2023 at 9:58 AM, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

 

Just a question here, has anything changed during the past 2 years for why this logic doesn't apply anymore?

 

The only thing I know that changed is that they have a new Skills and Balance Team Lead. Cal Cohen is now in that role.

[ascii.1369]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:23 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

The only thing I know that changed is that they have a new Skills and Balance Team Lead. Cal Cohen is now in that role.

Yeah, I guess he might disagree with the original assessment of Mantras being unfun. Would have been nice if he had given his reasons in the patch notes. They only ever talked about how people where avoiding to use the last charge and that this could be fixed through proper balance. However, if, as they stated before, Mantras are unfun to play by design, then balance won't fix it.

Edited March 13, 2023 by ascii.1369