Defend Achievements - Difficult Progression by current design and change

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

The whole credit system needs to be reworked, I didnt even know of the "exploit" of repairing SMC walls (until literally last night), and was diligently defending objectives and getting 0 credit for most of my participation in them.

Do they even know how annoying it is to beg for help, drive away attackers, destroy the siege, and get absolutely no rewards?
[get rid of enemies > destroy siege > repair > set up future counter siege]
More likely than not, the timer runs out before I can even proceed to the Repair step, I was already fudged before these changes, now my entire defense credit hinges on step 1 being "successful" in the games eyes.
Why wud I even bother spending 3 minutes to defend and get essentially nothing, when I cud just run off and go cap some camp elsewhere for the same 3 minutes?

At least when attacking objectives if you kill a guard, it counts despite doing absolutely nothing, but for defending there are no enemy npcs to kill.

Edited March 14, 2023 by MercurialKuroSludge.8974

[InspectorCaracal.2970]

Just now, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

The whole credit system needs to be reworked, I didnt even know of the "exploit" of repairing SMC walls (until literally last night), and was diligently defending objectives and getting 0 credit for most of my participation in them.

Do they even know how annoying it is to beg for help, drive away attackers, destroy the siege, and get absolutely no rewards?
At least when attacking objectives if you kill a guard, it counts despite doing absolutely nothing, but for defending there are no enemy npcs to kill.

Yeah. I keep wishing that you could get defense credit for at least just doing damage if they don't die - like, as proof you were doing things, you know? - because when you're defending, it doesn't actually matter ultimately (except for their participation calculations) if the attackers die. What matters is if they give up and go away.

If they do, we successfully defended! We should get credit for it! 😞

[idpersona.3810]

it's funny to see the complaints about repairing for participation immediately (within minutes) turn around become complaints about anet taking them away.

I do hope the fix or clarify what counts as defense. This week alone I've attacked attacking forces 3 to 5 times and gotten no credit. I don't even exactly know why. Then sometimes while roaming in the middle of nowhere I randomly get credit for some defense somewhere and don't understand that either. Sometimes the WvW rewards structure makes little sense.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

6 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I do hope the fix or clarify what counts as defense. This week alone I've attacked attacking forces 3 to 5 times and gotten no credit. I don't even exactly know why. Then sometimes while roaming in the middle of nowhere I randomly get credit for some defense somewhere and don't understand that either. Sometimes the WvW rewards structure makes little sense.

We need more ways to proc defense credit, I cant believe doing all the work and then finally getting to dismantle enemy siege doesnt even count, this is madness!

Also that freaking WvW mastery system and point reset sytem lmao, old players dont bother re-speccing and new players like me have nothing to even spec into, whats the fudging point?

Edited March 14, 2023 by MercurialKuroSludge.8974

[Xenesis.6389]

Well let that be a lesson to you all, spend your supply more wisely next time and stop abusing the systems!

🍿

[TheGrimm.5624]

What's ironic is the lack of supply in the larger structures was causing people to leave defensive positions and creating more open field movements and more scattering of people and thereby more open world fights and more fights in camps. Before we go into this, anyone that was trying to level WvW levels via just repairing was only wasting their own time, people repairing after an event were either doing it because their driver indicated it or they did it themselves since they didn't want to leave an open breach. Note I said after the event to define the reward people from the don't lose your stuff people.

So the first iteration where repairing removed participation triggered people to pretty much not repair at all leaving repairing to only people that wanted some warning when their structure was being attacked which meant longer and slower repairs that lasted extended times.

Second iteration was what we just went thu that repairs by most people were only done during the event. Not sure what others were seeing but afterward it ended a lot of people just stopped. That left the people from the first scenario with less house cleaning to do. Instead of just adjusting the levels and adding in other defensive actions which people were requesting it was just brick and hammer repaired in the code.

Third iteration guesstimate before failed attacks, expecting less open field fights since more people won't care about camps again, more siege warfare and people complaining that they are killed by too many AC, though they hit like wetnoodles if you aren't in glass-cannon and still do if stacked in a boon ball, more boon balls just standing in air rain and people complaining about wall hangers. 

All of which is ironic since we don't know what shape the failed attacks will take. Either case lets see how it changes the flow and get feedback since different servers reacted differently.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

19 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Well let that be a lesson to you all, spend your supply more wisely next time and stop abusing the systems!

🍿

Honestly, since SMC repair seems to be the clear issue here, I dont see why we cant just up the repair amount needed to proc defense credit for SMC alone, or make it stop giving roughly half my exp bar the moment I even touch the wall.

That is way too much wxp for nothing done, and Im starting to see why theres always a que for EBG now, the exploit gives so much exp for anyone holding SMC and half afk repairing.
In the case of my server, if we have SMC, sometimes even Home BL gets neglected, EBG queue is 60 ppl long, and every structure we have is still falling apart.
People dont even venture out to protect camps anymore, which is ironic because camps are where the repair supps come from anyway, so me and a few others always have to make supply runs and often get run down by other world camping their respective closer camps with 10+ ppl while we 5- cant do anything, and our supply lines get cut.

Personally, I wud love for the SMC defense get nerfed, but we keep wall repair credit, its so hard to do anything, when the whole evening theres just that 1 trashy guild zerg that every server knows exist.

Edited March 14, 2023 by MercurialKuroSludge.8974

[neven.3785]

This just means that when im defending, i'll no longer limit myself to one repair tick per defense timer, i'll actually dump my supply completely when needed.

[Olvendred.3027]

WvW is an inherently unequal game mode, which is fine, but it means there are lots of situations where you are literally unable to kill any attacking enemies or their siege. Does this mean you should never defend, if only to slow them down? Repairing may not be the ideal solution, but there needs to be an easy and reliable way to get defend participation without killing any players or siege. Until they implement that, this change needs to be reverted

[InspectorCaracal.2970]

1 minute ago, Olvendred.3027 said:

WvW is an inherently unequal game mode, which is fine, but it means there are lots of situations where you are literally unable to kill any attacking enemies or their siege. Does this mean you should never defend, if only to slow them down? Repairing may not be the ideal solution, but there needs to be an easy and reliable way to get defend participation without killing any players or siege. Until they implement that, this change needs to be reverted

I don't think we need an easy way to get defense credit, but it would be nice to get credit for doing things that actually defend the objective, like destroying enemy siege and pushing the attackers back until they give up without necessarily defeating them.

Slowing down an attack doesn't really mean much if they still take the objective in the end - and if they don't, and they leave, you should be able to destroy their siege.

[ZTeamG.4603]

Yeah this is a terrible change for WvW. With no other changes to the participation system, it is now much harder to get defense credit and refresh your participation timer if you're playing defense against a bigger group. 

 

Furthermore, this change promotes gameplay far more toxic than before. Here's an example:

Let's say you're at a keep that's under attack by a group of 30. Your participation timer is running low. You have maybe a max of 4 other allies in or around the keep that might help with defense. That's a pretty common scenario on my server, at least. You could:

-Try to defend with siege or disable siege. Oh wait, killing enemy siege won't give you any participation/event credit, and you definitely won't get any kills off of the stacked group of 40, and now you can't refresh your participation and get defense credit by getting a repair tap on the wall before going back to your siege.

-Try to defend conventionally, cast from the wall, etc. Oh wait, that doesn't give participation/event credit either. Again, you definitely won't get any kills off of the stacked group of 40 and now you can't refresh your participation and get defense credit by getting a repair tap on the wall before going back to what you were doing. 

-Repair. Oh wait, now that won't give you participation/event credit. You could repair in the hopes that a larger group from your team will arrive, but on a lot of servers you'll never have a group big enough to contest the enemy zerg in off hours. Repairing just delays the inevitable if nobody cares about destroying the enemy siege or pushing the enemies back either.

-Forget about actually defending the keep and go grief enemy stragglers trying to reach the zerg. Kill one of them and you get event credit and max participation. Whereas in the past you might be feeling nice and let a low rank player get to the zerg, those stragglers are now your only source of defense credit and participation in a massively outnumbered defense. This is the only rewarded gameplay in an outnumbered defense scenario.

 

If people got annoyed at guilds that would exclusively gank stragglers in the past, just wait until this new gameplay sets in and that's all anyone outside of the big zergs does.

 

 

ANet should not have implemented this change without a rework of the participation/event credit system. 

Some ideas:

-Dealing a certain amount of damage to enemy players should give defense credit, participation, and set the timer to something like 3 or 5 min.

-Destroying enemy siege should give defense credit, participation, and set the timer to 5 min.

-Disabling enemy siege or catching enemies in a trap should give event credit, participation, and set the timer to 2 min.

-Heck, even dying to enemies you've hit should give a 1 or 2 min grace period on the timer.

Edited March 14, 2023 by ZTeamG.4603

[neven.3785]

There are plenty of people who auto attack a gate, or hit a guard,  You may miss a tick or two, but you still will have increased rewards overall compared to how it used to be.  So the only excuse i really am hearing is "Im entitled give me everything!"

[Whirlygig.9685]

22 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

-Forget about actually defending the keep and go grief enemy stragglers trying to reach the zerg. Kill one of them and you get event credit and max participation. Whereas in the past you might be feeling nice and let a low rank player get to the zerg, those stragglers are now your only source of defense credit and participation in a massively outnumbered defense. This is the only rewarded gameplay in an outnumbered defense scenario.

 

 

I appreciate your points. I was in an EB Keep defence yesterday that was very hectic and ran for around 7 ticks, due to lack of supplies and the fact i was trying to push them to at least the outer wall from inner only 2 of those ticks actually netted me contribution and rewards, which 2? the 2 that also involved me shutting inner after running to a camp.

 

Your point above, its actually even worse than that, where is the 'active' area for a kill to count? I killed stragglers returning, it didnt count, too far out? Also the enemy team just stopped with siege at one point and despite us killing them on the border of the outer wall, again, i got nothing.

 

Why even bother?

Edited March 14, 2023 by Whirlygig.9685

[Deland.6482]

1 hour ago, HeIIica.2945 said:

In my opinion, repairing walls, and gates, is participating, and is one important aspect in defending. I think it should be counted, therefore, I disagree with anet taking the participation away.  However, I do agree that it created an issue with depleting the supply that is needed for building siege for defending.  For me, they can do better, they should come up with something better.

What if instead of generic supplies we had 2 types of supplies: one for building siege and one for repairing structures?

For example, instead of 300 generic suplies a structure will have 150 supplies for building siege weapons and 150 suplies for repairing a structure. Each type of supply can only be used for its own purpose. This will not solve all the issues but we will at least have something to use to build Arrow Carts, Ballistas, etc.

[Cuks.8241]

Give participation for pulling tactics. Ewp should naturaly give gold and 750wxp. 🤭

[Draygo.9473]

17 minutes ago, Deland.6482 said:

What if instead of generic supplies we had 2 types of supplies: one for building siege and one for repairing structures?

For example, instead of 300 generic suplies a structure will have 150 supplies for building siege weapons and 150 suplies for repairing a structure. Each type of supply can only be used for its own purpose. This will not solve all the issues but we will at least have something to use to build Arrow Carts, Ballistas, etc.

While not a bad idea, it would be a pain in the kitten for anet to implement. I take it then players would need to be able to both carry repair supplies and build supplies, so thats a UI change too. Squad UI would need adjustment as well. 

Does supply capacity affect this? Or do they tack on another rank track for additional repair supplies?

[Bristingr.5034]

2 hours ago, scureuil.4052 said:

so, 0 XPM when you try to defend outnumbered, but kill no one. 

 

With this update, noone will repair the structures anymore. It give nothing.

 

How about removing  entirely the walls and the gates, Anet ? 

Exactly. No point in having the gates or walls. Only time they will be repaired now is to splinch a zerg coming through if done correctly.

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

They fully killed defending.

Again a measure to punish everyone due to a few people abusing.

Do damage to enemy: No credit
Disable enemy siege: No credit.

Only a kill now gives credit? And how are a handful of defenders now getting credit against a tight stacked zerg?

Simply not.

Forget defending, Apparantly ArenaNet does not want Defending at all.

I am getting a bit sick and tired of these extremely short sighted changes that punishes WAY too many people for what a few abuse. 

I suggest the following should be contribution: 

- Damaging enemy or enemy siege
- Disabling enemy siege
- Fighting and DYING to enemy Zergs.

In it's current state? Let them have it, not gonna risk my Participation against a Zerg due to these changes. Thanks for making capture a Free for All, ArenaNet

[neven.3785]

party up or join squads if the rewards matter to you so much, it is supposed to be a group game mode after all

[Burch.5732]

Just now, neven.3785 said:

party up or join squads if the rewards matter to you so much, it is supposed to be a group game mode after all

Roamers are also part of the WvW game mode.  Anet needs to remove Tower and Keep defense until they can correct the current problems.  I am glad I got my defense rewards last night.

[Bristingr.5034]

2 minutes ago, neven.3785 said:

party up or join squads if the rewards matter to you so much, it is supposed to be a group game mode after all

You missed the point of this game mode. There's several roles outside of just running in a group (roamers, havocs, scouts, etc.), and they effectively killed off scouting/early defense entirely.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

31 minutes ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

Exactly. No point in having the gates or walls. Only time they will be repaired now is to splinch a zerg coming through if done correctly.

Its funny, sometimes when getting a successful kill right outside the walls, we dont get defense credit either.
So are we supposed to intentionally allow enemies in, seal off their easy escape,  and then make sure they die inside the walls just for defense credit now?

[Alaryn.4597]

What a stupid decision. It's going to be much more difficult for new players to get all these defending achievements. Why there are no adjustements to these?

[neven.3785]

Roamers are still actively getting kills.   Scouting rewards are a different beast.  Especially afk tower scouts and camp golem users who panic type and die.  If that crowd wants rewards, thats what shared participation is for.  

I play primarily support in wvw when in squad, I am used to not receiving near the same rewards of the DPS.  I made the choice to do that, just as people make the choice to scout or roam.  Part of that choice is knowing you will will miss participation because it isn't something that can be balanced without opening the door wide open for abuse.  This current fix is a result of abuse from their reward system, of course there will be collateral damage from it.  However you will still get more rewards.

[Draygo.9473]

17 minutes ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

They fully killed defending.

Again a measure to punish everyone due to a few people abusing.

Do damage to enemy: No credit
Disable enemy siege: No credit.

Only a kill now gives credit? And how are a handful of defenders now getting credit against a tight stacked zerg?

Simply not.

Forget defending, Apparantly ArenaNet does not want Defending at all.

I am getting a bit sick and tired of these extremely short sighted changes that punishes WAY too many people for what a few abuse. 

I suggest the following should be contribution: 

- Damaging enemy or enemy siege
- Disabling enemy siege
- Fighting and DYING to enemy Zergs.

In it's current state? Let them have it, not gonna risk my Participation against a Zerg due to these changes. Thanks for making capture a Free for All, ArenaNet

A few? 

You mean nearly everyone, including me? If it was only a few then why would you even care?

Also no, if you die you shouldn't get credit for that. I don't need to see semi afk people running into the enemy zerg on purpose. Its just as bad as the semi-afk's that repaired walls in SMC. Everything else is a hard yes.