Siege in WvW

[DoomNexus.5324]

This is a followup to my other thread:

Since you all seem to HATE the idea, how would you change sieges in WvW if you could? Or do you think the current system is perfect and should stay exactly as it is now?
Some comments actually gave valid criticism and alternatives to achieving a similar goal, which some of them I honestly even prefer over my suggestion. But a lot of comments were just bashing the whole idea of being more resourceful or saying "increase the damage of siege again" or "make them cost nothing" etc.. Which to me begs the question, why even have walls and sieges etc in WvW if most of you apparently want to faceroll through the map anyway?

Do you actually even like a "siege focused" game mode or would you prefer a battleground-style mode where you just clash and maybe fight over some open objectives?
It would be interesting if you can also provide some reasoning for changes you suggest, like what's the intended effect of this change.

[Gehenna.3625]

I think the health increase on rams was too much but other than that...well, actually I wouldn't know if it's fine the way it is, because that would require players to actually build siege and use it. And hardly anybody does.

I could say what I prefer but it's not going to happen because I know for a fact that it wouldn't work for the masses who just wanna zerg and ppt.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I think the health increase on rams was too much

I honestly dont even bother to take down enemy rams after a recap, takes too long. If they use them to recap again because the guards where too slow... Cant be bothered 🤷‍♂️

Edited April 1, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Xenesis.6389]

32 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I honestly dont even bother to take down enemy rams after a recap, takes too long. If they use them to recap again because the guards where too slow... Cant be bothered 🤷‍♂️

Seems like most are like minded on this since the change. Sometimes I sit there killing rams myself and even my zerg will just run past them..... then I'm like... why am I the only idiot doing this.... 😔

[blp.3489]

37 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I honestly dont even bother to take down enemy rams after a recap, takes too long. If they use them to recap again because the guards where too slow... Cant be bothered 🤷‍♂️

I dislike that destroying the siege and repairing the gate to cut off reinforcements isn't really viable anymore, the objective will be captured before you can destroy a ram let alone several.  And of course your squad will be on the other side of the map before you finish if you stop to destroy it.  It kind of meshes in with the let them flip it so we can flip it back approach that seems to be emerging.

Edited April 1, 2023 by blp.3489

[Johje Holan.4607]

So I answered more strategic siege battles. But that could mean a lot of things. Not sure what you mean by that but here’s what I mean. 

I enjoy the map strategy aspect of WvW the most. Where to hit, when to hit, how to hit to achieve the goal of territorial control. Unfortunately population imbalance distorts the landscape of territorial control. The changes I would make are ones that would seek to mitigate the strength of population. 
 

Two things I think would go a long way toward mitigating the population advantage.
1. Encourage the weaker servers to gang up on the stronger. This is the one that baffles me the most. Anet explicitly stated that 2v1 on the stronger server was intended and expected by the 3-way design of WvW. Yet it rarely happens. Why not encourage it?

2. It should be exceedingly hard to capture and hold locations the deeper into the enemy territory you go. But it’s not. This is because of the supply advantage.It should be harder to get supplies to you troops on the front line. But in WvW it’s easier. Makes no sense. 

Population advantage mitigation has been discussed ad nauseum on these forums since launch.  Anet has never seen fit to attempt anything. I can only conclude that they are afraid to do so or that the code won’t allow it

Edited April 1, 2023 by Johje Holan.4607

[MedievalThings.5417]

The ONLY siege that should exist is rams and oil.  Superblobs should not be able to hide in SMC waiting for some AFK guy on a treb to finish knocking down walls on everything so they can just ride their mounts to the lord.

People should be required to fight, face to face, over objectives.

 

As a side note: SMC should not have supply huts.  Why do we keep rewarding stacked servers with extra supply just for outnumbering their opponents.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Ubi.4136

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

The ONLY siege that should exist is rams and oil.

What an odd way to declare a hatred for smallscale.

[Gehenna.3625]

14 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I honestly dont even bother to take down enemy rams after a recap, takes too long. If they use them to recap again because the guards where too slow... Cant be bothered 🤷‍♂️

yeah that's exactly it, people just stop caring about keeping objectives.

[Gorani.7205]

I would like to see more strategic siege battles, but that would also require to take a look at the use of supply and WvW abilities. Making changes to geometry/walls is probably out of the question, because it would require way more Dev time.
What I would like to see is more emphasis on clever placement & skill use and less on balling up siege (mostly for attacking) in one spot. Ideas for that in roughly the necessary order required:
- Shield Generator: reduce the range of superior Gens to 2500 and for guild Gens to 2800; increase recharge on Force Ball to 6 seconds and to Force Dome to 25 seconds; change Shield Gen mastery 5 to "reduce recharge time of Force Ball & Force Dome by 20%"
- Arrow Carts: Increase base damage by 10%; add Vulnerability to skill #1 in the same manner #2 % #3 have Bleed & Cripple, so "enduring standing in the hail of arrow" will be more costly (you either need more heals or you will be more prone to damage from other sources). reduce the recharge of the Toxic shot #5 to 40 seconds and add Weakness to the Poison it deals; this way #5 is a setup to reduce the power of the group being hit for a counter attack by "mobile forces"
- Ballistae: if possible, move the point of origin to shoot from up, within the hitbox of the siege; now it is hard to shoot down from walls, because the shot hardly travels over those small rims the walls have and you have to build Ballistae way too close to the rims of walls; reduce the recharge of Reenforced shot to 30 seconds and make it pierce Force Domes set up by Shield gens. Make Anti-Air bolt recharge immediately, if you hit a flying or mounted foe; Ballistae would be your special purpose weapon, that excels against Generators, a mounted charge and flying re-enforcements, offering the ability to break up a zerg (remember the bounces!) and a counter for notorious "flying spots" (people flying into south Air Keep to retreat; defenders flying in from Hills to Lake tower etc.)
- Catapults: Add a piece of code that checks whether the cata would be hit by its own splash damage; if it would be affected, do not deal damage via Fire Boulder; this would stop all those catas placed directly in front of walls; double the base damage of Gravel Shot and the stacks of Bleeding + add a 4 second immobilize to the shot (applied after the bleeding, so you can cleanse once, to be moving again)

[MedievalThings.5417]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What an odd way to declare a hatred for smallscale.

Even with 3 rams, you can take a t3 tower in under 90 seconds from siege drop to lord dead.  How does that prevent smallscale?

[Dawdler.8521]

39 minutes ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Even with 3 rams, you can take a t3 tower in under 90 seconds from siege drop to lord dead.  How does that prevent smallscale?

What smallscale builds 3 rams? 🤔

But also only having rams would make it impossible to adjust to even the weakest of defense. Just build 2+ ACs on every gate, no smallscale group will ever bother to begin a siege because its not like you wont know where they come from. Or send a couple AoE bursters to pop in and out of the portal - the rams might stand against everything but the players wont. Especially not if those ACs are already firing.

[MedievalThings.5417]

46 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What smallscale builds 3 rams? 🤔

But also only having rams would make it impossible to adjust to even the weakest of defense. Just build 2+ ACs on every gate, no smallscale group will ever bother to begin a siege because its not like you wont know where they come from. Or send a couple AoE bursters to pop in and out of the portal - the rams might stand against everything but the players wont. Especially not if those ACs are already firing.

Only rams and oil.  How would people be building arrow carts? None of the other siege should exist.  Kind of like downstate shouldn't exist.

[Dawdler.8521]

20 minutes ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Only rams and oil.  How would people be building arrow carts? None of the other siege should exist.  Kind of like downstate shouldn't exist.

I'm sure the german servers would still find some way to build arrowcarts, even if they have to place 5 rangers on top of each other in every objective. 

I dont count arrowcarts and ballistas as siege since they are useless for sieging. Siege is trebs, catas and rams.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:09 AM, Ubi.4136 said:

Only rams and oil.  How would people be building arrow carts? None of the other siege should exist.  Kind of like downstate shouldn't exist.

Rams and oil only benefit the larger side of a fight. That's a no go. We don't need more reasons to zerg.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 4/2/2023 at 10:21 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

What smallscale builds 3 rams? 🤔

6 player havocs could build 3 rams, but they build 3 cats. Only need 5 when 25 sups. Cats offer better breaching spots especially if you pre-build the outer and resup for inner prior to starting outer. 

[Dawdler.8521]

55 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

6 player havocs could build 3 rams, but they build 3 cats. Only need 5 when 25 sups. Cats offer better breaching spots especially if you pre-build the outer and resup for inner prior to starting outer. 

6 player havocs where one has completely forgotten supply, another didnt realize he had 4 supplies and one more thats gone AFK in spawn.

With 6 random players it would be similar, except two of them are also staring at the build site seemingly wondering what it is.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Riba.3271]

Well, siege battles used to be balanced and that made them strategic.

 

Now it is just statfilled clouds and using quickness on guild golems to rush straight into lord room.

All I want is better balance, strategy will come with it.

[LetoII.3782]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Rams and oil only benefit the larger side of a fight. That's a no go. We don't need more reasons to zerg.

Agreed, rams and oil is just.... Warhammer Age of Reckoning. No fighting on walls or courtyard, just a big blob clash at the top of the stairs to the lord room lagfest.

[TheGrimm.5624]

45 minutes ago, LetoII.3782 said:

Agreed, rams and oil is just.... Warhammer Age of Reckoning. No fighting on walls or courtyard, just a big blob clash at the top of the stairs to the lord room lagfest.

🙂 Ah but I miss my Choppa. Being able to bypass and come up behind them while they held the walls and the ones that would backpedal off the walls to fall into the attack below. Magic. That and tank walls, even if you were on the wrong side of them.

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

6 player havocs where one has completely forgotten supply, another didnt realize he had 4 supplies and one more thats gone AFK in spawn.

With 6 random players it would be similar, except two of them are also staring at the build site seemingly wondering what it is.

lol, that's another reason we asked for private tags, there is no forgetting supply. You grab, we use. Chop chop. We've got walls to drop.

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

🙂 Ah but I miss my Choppa. Being able to bypass and come up behind them while they held the walls and the ones that would backpedal off the walls to fall into the attack below. Magic. That and tank walls, even if you were on the wrong side of them.

kitten grimm you made me wanna go take a trip down memory lane again... 🤭🍿

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[LetoII.3782]

On 4/5/2023 at 1:03 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

🙂 Ah but I miss my Choppa. Being able to bypass and come up behind them while they held the walls and the ones that would backpedal off the walls to fall into the attack below. Magic. That and tank walls, even if you were on the wrong side of them.

It's easy to get rose colored glasses about for sure.

I put a lot of work into marauder.. Wonder if they ever did fix the tentacle pull or heal debuff arm.

A lot of my experiences in WAR were theoretically very cool, but the reality was running around at 3fps while skills didn't work on characters that didn't work all that great when it wasn't 3fps with skills not going off.... Too often to not discredit the experience of playing, or to want to encourage the behavior that causes that kind of network trouble here. Blobs cause lag

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by LetoII.3782

[AlCapwnd.7834]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:27 AM, DoomNexus.5324 said:

This is a followup to my other thread:

Since you all seem to HATE the idea, how would you change sieges in WvW if you could? Or do you think the current system is perfect and should stay exactly as it is now?
Some comments actually gave valid criticism and alternatives to achieving a similar goal, which some of them I honestly even prefer over my suggestion. But a lot of comments were just bashing the whole idea of being more resourceful or saying "increase the damage of siege again" or "make them cost nothing" etc.. Which to me begs the question, why even have walls and sieges etc in WvW if most of you apparently want to faceroll through the map anyway?

Do you actually even like a "siege focused" game mode or would you prefer a battleground-style mode where you just clash and maybe fight over some open objectives?
It would be interesting if you can also provide some reasoning for changes you suggest, like what's the intended effect of this change.

Defensive Siege placement (AC's, Trebs, Catas)  needs to be addressed. For example. You should not be able to place down more than 2-3 pieces of siege in a 2000 radius. That would solve the problem of siege. If this was implemented you would see a certain server that shall not be named turn to dog dung over night.

 

Put the confused faces over there per usual ------------------------------------------------------------->

Edited April 6, 2023 by AlCapwnd.7834

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

It's easy to get rose colored glasses about for sure.

Quite agree. Good hunting to you, and a WAAAGH! from this [OE] Choppa.