Please unNerf Daily WvW Objective Defender

[CelestialCat.6240]

Ever since the devs nee jerk reacted to speed repair teleport hackers by making repairs no longer count towards the Daily WvW Objective Defender it has become a many many times harder to get the defender daily. Normally I could repair a wall or gate to ensure the daily was done but now you have to kill a player or res a lord. This can prove very difficult when your side is being outnumbered as almost kills or just being in combat in the area doesn't count.

 

Is there any chance the devs could unnerf the Daily WvW Objective Defender? The rest of the rewards for defending can stay the same just please fix Daily WvW Objective Defender.

[Zepoolpe.9217]

4 hours ago, CelestialCat.6240 said:

 but now you have to kill a player or res a lord

And even that might not work because Anet spaghetti code is utterly broken.

[SFShinigami.1572]

Give the bronze award for old style obj def, which triggers the achievement progress, and only give the new extra awards for silver/gold.  Probably the best, least effort solution.

[andrewlcl.8176]

Tale as old as time. 

 

Anet: OK, kids, mummy and daddy been hard at work. Here's some new toys and privileges. 

 

GW2 players: *abuse the kitten out of it*

 

Anet: Alright kids, turns out you lack the maturity to handle your new privileges, I am removing ALL of it, including what you had before. 

 

GW2 players: *cry a river of tears*

 

And that was how the Elon River came to be. 

[Riba.3271]

Nah, in my opinion this doesn't matter.
WvW dailies are already super easy. Kill 1 guy near a tower or camp you own? Too hard? Then do the other 3 dailies...

Honestly only reasoning behind this being is a problem I can think of this is that either person is logging to WVW just to do dailies or they have to do dailies first before anything else. Neither case really varrants change, former has alternative in PvE dailies and another is just stupidity. Daily defender completes itself.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Chichimec.9364]

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

...WvW dailies are already super easy. Kill 1 guy near a tower or camp you own? Too hard? Then do the other 3 dailies...Daily defender completes itself.

Sadly, my experience seems to be very different than yours. The mechanics for Objective Defender and Tower Guardian seem to be broken. For two hours a day I run with a squad that goes through the various maps attacking and defending towers, keeps, and at least once a day, SMC. When defending it is often the case that some in the squad will get credit for Objective Defender and/or Tower Guardian and some won't, even though we all fought and killed the same enemies. The mechanics seem to be so wonky that since Tower Guardian was introduced, I've only completed it once, though I'm doing two hours a day, five to seven days a week of capping and defending on all the WvW maps. Killing "1 guy near a tower" doesn't seem to do it for us. Heck, killing half a dozen guys inside a tower hasn't done it for me at times.

Reinstating credit for repairing may or may not be a part of the solution but something does need to be done about the broken mechanics here. Sadly, OP, despite the numerous posts about this problem in the WvW forum, as far as I know, Anet has not yet said anything about fixing this mess. Let's hope they do soon, but at this point, it is just a hope.

[andrewlcl.8176]

8 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Daily defender completes itself.

No, it doesn't. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't. 

 

Everything else you say sounds sensible and logical. 

 

Daily Defender "algorithm", sadly, is not logical. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by andrewlcl.8176

[Hotride.2187]

10 hours ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Tale as old as time. 

Anet: OK, kids, mummy and daddy been hard at work. Here's some new toys and privileges. 

GW2 players: *abuse the kitten out of it*

Anet: Alright kids, turns out you lack the maturity to handle your new privileges, I am removing ALL of it, including what you had before. 

GW2 players: *cry a river of tears*

And that was how the Elon River came to be. 

Lol at expecting players to not abuse a highly abusable system for its rewards. It takes a few hours in the mode and half a minute of consideration to know what will happen if you grant ticket rewards for wall repairs.

Do not even in the slightest suggest this is a player problem and not a game dev problem.

[andrewlcl.8176]

6 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Lol at expecting players to not abuse a highly abusable system for its rewards. It takes a few hours in the mode and half a minute of consideration to know what will happen if you grant ticket rewards for wall repairs.

Do not even in the slightest suggest this is a player problem and not a game dev problem.

It's not so much whose fault it is. It's about who has more to lose. Does Anet have a great track record of balancing things? Or are they more likely to hit things with the bluntest weapon, give up on balance and just remove an entire feature? 

 

In this case, they just gave up. Now, we are gonna ask for these defense rewards to be reinstated, ad infinitum. Whose loss is it? 

[babana.7521]

Please do not un-nerf the defenders thingy, I've seen players wanted to defend objectives more now than ever. 

[Zepoolpe.9217]

On 4/23/2023 at 1:25 AM, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Tale as old as time. 

 

Anet: OK, kids, mummy and daddy been hard at work. Here's some new toys and privileges. 

 

GW2 players: *abuse the kitten out of it*

 

Anet: Alright kids, turns out you lack the maturity to handle your new privileges, I am removing ALL of it, including what you had before. 

 

GW2 players: *cry a river of tears*

 

And that was how the Elon River came to be. 

The Defender daily was broken long before the (pseudo) reward overhaul, it's just that repairing was an additional (and most likely the best) way of trying to trigger it

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

The Defender daily was broken long before the (pseudo) reward overhaul, it's just that repairing was an additional (and most likely the best) way of trying to trigger it

Basically this.  Anyone that tried to get a defense event at something like north camp knows the bugginess of the event.  Repairing just guaranteed you got it, which you can only obviously do at structures.  

So, they didn't fix anything, just increased rewards on a buggy thing that people then misused the only sure way to get those rewards (repairing) and so anet does what it always does and just nukes the defense event by disabling repair credit.    

Which is actually baffling.  Because, for instance, for about a week after the ranger spirit change you could put those things inside on a lord and get the buffs outside a keep--so surely they have the technology to sense something happening in a wide range. 

Yet, you literally have to kill someone on the lord itself just to hope for bronze credit...

Edited April 24, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Matty.1234]

9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Basically this.  Anyone that tried to get a defense event at something like north camp knows the bugginess of the event.  Repairing just guaranteed you got it, which you can only obviously do at structures.  

So, they didn't fix anything, just increased rewards on a buggy thing that people then misused the only sure way to get those rewards (repairing) and so anet does what it always does and just nukes the defense event by disabling repair credit.    

Which is actually baffling.  Because, for instance, for about a week after the ranger spirit change you could put those things inside on a lord and get the buffs outside a keep--so surely they have the technology to sense something happening in a wide range. 

Yet, you literally have to kill someone on the lord itself just to hope for bronze credit...

I kill plenty at lord and get no defense. Defense are the only weeklies I don't complete. Keep I can usually get done. Tower usually ends on 2 / 8.

 

It should be cap SMC 8 times, defend tower 1 time. It would be a lot more achievable.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Matty.1234 said:

It should be cap SMC 8 times, defend tower 1 time. It would be a lot more achievable.

I haven't done sm cap even once since the implementation of the weekly achievements. In fact, i probaly haven't capped sm for over a year. Meanwhile defense achievements are the only reason i'm able to finish the weekly without having to go out of my way and join zergs (i didn't finish the weekly even once before the defense addition for that reason). And that hasn't changed. Maybe it's only coincidence, but i feel like the less players defending, the higher the chance of getting defense credit. I actually think i always got credit for any solo defense as long i killed at least one player during the defense event. Tho i can't tell for sure, because i'm usually not paying that much attention to that sort of thing. But at the end of the week defense is usually done even tho i'm not even defending that much, so i have to get credit most of the time.

Maybe the defense achievements are supposed to be more for roamers while everything else heavily favours zergs anyway? Would only be fair, no?

Edited April 24, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[TheGrimm.5624]

22 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Maybe the defense achievements are supposed to be more for roamers while everything else heavily favours zergs anyway? Would only be fair, no?

There would be irony there I admit. But no I think its still how we players might expect versus the event logic that triggers a flag on the back end. Example when people talking about killing players both inside an objective and outside and don't get credit. Players would assume that killing a target in either of those cases would be defending. But what seems to be the issue is that before the player is killed they needed to do something that would flag them as an attacker. So unless they do they aren't valid as a target for the defense event logic. Why is that, I could theorize but wouldn't be able to prove. 

Now why do I say this? One reason is had a massive fight outside of an EB tower a two weeks back and stopped and tried to pay attention to the back and fourth. The event last for a hour and half or more and the weekly started and finished in the same massive fight. Mind you this was a giant mass on mass chaotic fight and not tags hitting each other, or if the other side had a tag didn't see any organized movement, we didn't have on a the time which made it the bash-fest it was I think. So we broke into a tower they were defending, killed the players and lord and we got an attack event. After the fight move outside to the sides that were going back and fourth, both sides were getting kills. When targeting the players that I could see that got kills on our, now defenders after the cap, players the defense event was pretty consistent. When looking for people just getting to the fight and killing them before I saw them get anyone it was more hit or miss on the event. Again not best proof but was looking like a pattern. Need to test more.

So what it seems to be is the defender needs to take down an attacker that has been flagged as an attacker even though its hard to see what those actions are. Its seems like in or out of the structure if the attacking player killed a defender in the target area it seems to flag them. If not then neither killing them in or out matters. Now to find some peeps just jumping guards and see if that applies in and out as well.

I could also see this issue being what is holding up the failed attack event if you think about it in the same light. How do you prevent kill trading, well to do so the attacker needs to kill someone that is a defender but you need an action to define them as a defender but what actions are those that are less likely to be gamed by a kill trader. Chicken and egg scenario. Coding random is not easy so there are patterns just a matter of IDing them on no data for fun. Again I also usually don't look at chests till sometime way later so its a stop and test which is harder to do in a big open fight. Now what's ironic as well is this might have been intended to prevent people from just kill trading. But for it to work they would need to kill trade so its a negative impact on people stopping an attack while in open field or killing defending healers are no credit for attackers because them healing lone didn't flag them as an attacker. Now that would be a bit twisted.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

If you are playing for a longer period of time (spitballing 1 hour or more) and in a large group (30 or more) that goes to defend events, objective defender credit will likely happen.  If playing for a lesser time frame or in a smaller group, not so much -- but ANet does not care about those people, so working fine.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

If you are playing for a longer period of time (spitballing 1 hour or more) and in a large group (30 or more) that goes to defend events, objective defender credit will likely happen.  If playing for a lesser time frame or in a smaller group, not so much -- but ANet does not care about those people, so working fine.

I played quite a bit these last 2 weeks and failed to complete any of the defense weekly achievements. From the individual credits I did get, it didn't seem to follow much reason.
I must have just killed the wrong invaders on various objectives. Thankfully I still did complete the overall weekly last week and am on track to do so this week, without any defense objectives.

[SFShinigami.1572]

I was trying to finish off the keep one last night. Killed multiple enemies in lord of garrison on two different attempts and neither triggered.  If you can't get it while in garrison lord room there are problems.

[Chichimec.9364]

2 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

If you are playing for a longer period of time (spitballing 1 hour or more) and in a large group (30 or more) that goes to defend events, objective defender credit will likely happen.  If playing for a lesser time frame or in a smaller group, not so much -- but ANet does not care about those people, so working fine.

That's not my experience at all. I generally play for two hours a day running with a squad that varies from 25-50, depending on the day and who else is tagged up. Last week, with objective defender as a daily, we defended three towers in fairly quick succession and there were still folks in the squad who didn't get the daily. I did get objective defender myself but only got tower guardian on two of the three defenses. I suspect that @TheGrimm.5624 is on to  something with his theory that some attackers have done things that will flag them to give credit if they die, while others haven't done the required things and so don't give any credit.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

1 hour ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

That's not my experience at all. I generally play for two hours a day running with a squad that varies from 25-50, depending on the day and who else is tagged up. Last week, with objective defender as a daily, we defended three towers in fairly quick succession and there were still folks in the squad who didn't get the daily. I did get objective defender myself but only got tower guardian on two of the three defenses. I suspect that @TheGrimm.5624 is on to  something with his theory that some attackers have done things that will flag them to give credit if they die, while others haven't done the required things and so don't give any credit.

So, it's worse than I painted it...  Thanks, mate.

 

Afaik, @TheGrimm.5624 is spot on.  Our Guild leader, who has played WvW since day 1, says that's likely, and the facts don't fit any other hypothesis that I can come up with.

Edited April 25, 2023 by IndigoSundown.5419

[blp.3489]

If hitting an attacker that has "done something" is the key to getting defender credit, would hitting a player that is attacking the objective with a siege weapon guarantee getting defender status?  If so, that would seem to be the easiest way to guarantee getting defender status.

Edited April 29, 2023 by blp.3489
clarity

[Zyreva.1078]

42 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

If hitting an attacker that has "done something" is the key to getting defender credit, would hitting a player that is attacking the objective with a siege weapon guarantee getting defender status?  If so, that would seem to be the easiest way to guarantee getting defender status.

Just hitting someone doesn't do anything. Killing does. However i don't think it matters if the enemy player has actually attacked a structure or not. I have gotten defense credit when the only thing i did was killing a single player that arrived late to the scene and hasn't tagged anything before dieing.

Maybe there is some sort of minimum dmg someone has to deal to a player in order for the kill to count - which would explain why players who just run over enemies with a zerg have troubles getting defense credit and i don't (most of my kills are solo kills and those always seem to grant credit).

Edited April 29, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[IndigoSundown.5419]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Maybe there is some sort of minimum dmg someone has to deal to a player in order for the kill to count - which would explain why players who just run over enemies with a zerg have troubles getting defense credit and i don't (most of my kills are solo kills and those always seem to grant credit).

Maybe, but if so it is not the same threshold as getting credit for a kill.  Recently, I got credit for 28 kills (credit toward weeklies) across three Keep defense windows, but 0 keep defender credit.

 

Another possibility is that the player killed must have passed a threshold for Aggro on guards or some minimum damage to a wall/gate.

 

The third option, of course, is that the mechanic for objective defense is buggy as so many other things in this game (like, say, "Obstructed" when attacking a guard from range on a flat plane).

[Xenesis.6389]

Like I said in another thread, it's probably all tied to wxp gotten from an npc or part of the objective wall/gate associated with the objective first. So an attacker attacks a guard which starts the defense event, kills the guard for wxp which triggers them getting flagged as an actual attacker of that objective, you kill the attacker which then triggers credit for the defense event. But one guy kills the guards to trigger the event, while you go and kill someone random in the radius who hasn't touched the objective probably wouldn't get you credit, which would actually make sense.

SMC tends to be a place where a ton of guards spawn regularly, especially in lords where every aoe is tagging everything in the middle, pretty easy to tag/kill someone flagged as an attacker in there to get credit for the event, even easier when you're on cannons or ac and you tag everyone in the enemy group.

Somehow they need to change it so every enemy in the radius of the objective gets automatically flagged as an attacker when the defense event triggers, regardless of what they did, and not just when someone gained npc wxp. Or help increase the starting point of the whole chain by having more guards spawn, maybe with more hit points to last longer to force/make sure enemies tag/kill more of them for the flagging of the event (but this is not ideal for smaller attack groups).

In any case, good luck getting anet to listen, I'm sure this will be on the back burner for the next few years like participation was.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[Zyreva.1078]

14 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Maybe, but if so it is not the same threshold as getting credit for a kill.  Recently, I got credit for 28 kills (credit toward weeklies) across three Keep defense windows, but 0 keep defender credit.

Considering there are different thresholds for kill participation and loot/WXP, it isn't completely implausible that there's another one.

14 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Another possibility is that the player killed must have passed a threshold for Aggro on guards or some minimum damage to a wall/gate.

Like a said, i got defense credit for killing a player that had no chance at tagging or aggroing anything (guards were dead, walls were open, player died on arrival pretty much, i didn't do anything else).

14 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

The third option, of course, is that the mechanic for objective defense is buggy as so many other things in this game (like, say, "Obstructed" when attacking a guard from range on a flat plane).

That's ofc the most likely explanation, because i doubt they would out of a sudden implement reward mechanics that don't favour larger numbers.