Estimates for Power Reaper with May 2 Changes

[mandala.8507]

Been doing some casual testing and reshuffling of skills and these are my guesstimates for what the power reaper build will be able to do after the May 2 balance patch:

• Meta Power Reaper: 40.5k
• Meta Power Reaper Self-Quick: 37-38k
• LI Signet Power Reaper Self-Quick: 36k

And both of these self quick builds would be stackable. Add in an alacrity barrier specter and now you don't need a healer or a quickness provider. You could also just run a heal alacrity mech or cele mech, but that wouldn't be as fun.

Sample of how I got to these numbers:

I re-routed the rotation considering the buffs and then did a pull on the golem on current patch.

For the meta build: https://dps.report/UpWu-20230428-145207_golem , dps 31.8k on current patch

Then I did some math to get these additions per buffed skill:

• life reap: 317
• life slash: 1103
• soul spiral: 553
• life rend: 1620
• nightfall: 185
• gravedigger: 509
• YAAW: 319
• Total: +4606 dps

This gave me what my pull on current patch would translate to on May 2 patch: 36470

Then I accounted for the pull being kind of sloppy and without infusions, that I only hit about 93% of bench on a pretty clean pull, and that the bench is somewhat sandbagged. Therefore, this would be a 90% of bench pull on May 2 patch (maybe even worse than that, tbh).

So 100% of bench would be: 40.5k (probably higher with a serious grind)

And similar math and assumptions were used for the other 2 builds.

Feel free to critique these or share your own or better estimates — but this is the ballpark I'm expecting on Tuesday.

30% reaper playrate at all skill-levels incoming?

[Dadnir.5038]

Even if it's easy to play, a group will want all it's players to have all boons, a timely block and a reliable source of sustain. Reaper offer nothing like that, in fact reaper with the shroud mechanic will remain a mental burden for the healers.

Thus I do think that "30% reaper playrate at all skill-level" is exagerated.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Methuselah.4376]

19 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Even if it's easy to play, a group will want all it's players to have all boons, a timely block and a reliable source of sustain.

That's where support roles come in play. Yes, everyone wants the spec that can do everything but that doesn't mean there is no room for pure dps. Especially now that they're clamping hard on builds that offer boons with no boon duration.

19 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Reaper offer nothing like that, in fact reaper with the shroud mechanic will remain a mental burden for the healers.

A player that knows what they're doing will rarely get hit in raids. While healing in shroud is certainly an issue, it is not a prevalent as you would imagine it if the player knows what they're doing. In fact, I put it to you that because of shroud it is often that the Reaper will need less healing especially as of next week where shroud 3 will offer good damage mitigation.  

Something  good has happened. Why all this doom and gloom? Is Reaper perfect? No. But learn to appreciate a good thing. 

[Dadnir.5038]

29 minutes ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

Something  good has happened.

You think that forcefully bringing reaper's strike dps potential to 40k is something good? I do not.

When the top dps builds could only barely reach 33k dps potential, you could already bypass mechanics through dps. Do you need to have 40+k dps potential to do the same nowadays? Not at all.

The end game content don't need such high dps potential. Giving reaper that is merely making him chase the tails of the other top scorer who have more dps potential than needed and will still be ahead of reaper after the update.

In other words, 40k dps is merely flatting reaper's players vanity. Will it create more build diversity for reaper? Of course not. Will it make reaper a meaningful option against the handful of builds that can potentially dish out more damage than it does? Nope.

And if, despite that hard reality check, reaper still rise to be the favored pick in PvE, truly getting it's 30% playrate, the only possible outcome would be a forum burning with "rightful indignation" which would ultimately lead to nerfs.

 

I'll be happy for reaper the day the devs will stop doing the same thing again and again with reaper and finally start to work on the build diversity of this spec.

[Methuselah.4376]

16 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'll be happy for reaper the day the devs will stop doing the same thing again and again with reaper and finally start to work on the build diversity of this spec.

When you say build diversity, what do you have in mind? 

[Obtena.7952]

It's hard to say what 'build diversity' we should have in mind ... but pumping DPS on a spec ain't it. I see no diversity when a DPS spec has to compete with a handful of other DPS specs that do it much better.

When you have  a significant number of  specs that are all 'DPS', then desirability of any particular spec comes down to how well it integrates with the encounter, not it's DPS output. I don't see much bandwidth in the current encounters for Reaper to be optimally applicable. 

But, yay ... more DPS ... I guess. I see it as a missed opportunity for Anet to do something 'cool' on Reaper. 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Pooh.6897]

For a start, I’d love being able to bring mh dagger to reaper. Right now it’s only gs which isn’t fun at all

[Dadnir.5038]

23 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

When you say build diversity, what do you have in mind? 

Just ask yourself what traits you use on reaper and since when you do so. Reaper players have been stuck using soul eater and reaper's onslaught in PvE since 2018. I'll even add the pretty bad chilling nova as a default trait. Even in competitive modes the majority of the builds have been relying on those 2-3 traits since 2018.

As for the other traitlines in PvE? Unwaveringly Spite and Soul reaping (and always the same traits taken withing those traitlines). The only notable change we've had in 5 years for reaper is probably well of darkness being used as a dps skill. (ok, someone tried to make people consider a signet build a few years ago, build that ultimately fell into oblivion quite quickly)

 

Reaper don't need more strike damage output, it need changes that are attractive enough for players to break free from this 5 year old build that have already receive dps buff more than 10 time without ever actually making reaper attractive despite bringing him within 2k of the top dps quite a few time.

We are in an era where a group need 4 roles and, while some specs can contend for 3 of those roles, reaper is trying to contend on the single least attractive one. Reaper need to be able to contend on at least 1 more role and that's where it need buffs.

[Burnfall.9573]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's hard to say what 'build diversity' we should have in mind ... but pumping DPS on a spec ain't it. I see no diversity when a DPS spec has to compete with a handful of other DPS specs that do it much better.

When you have  a significant number of  specs that are all 'DPS', then desirability of any particular spec comes down to how well it integrates with the encounter, not it's DPS output. I don't see much bandwidth in the current encounters for Reaper to be optimally applicable. 

But, yay ... more DPS ... I guess. I see it as a missed opportunity for Anet to do something 'cool' on Reaper. 

 

 

In the end, as much I do not want to confess to this; Necromancer Profession-Reaper is a  dps melee role. Anet designed Reaper specifically to be a melee damage dealer aside from being a condition damage dealer.

 

Here is a video of Reaper hitbox (It seem that Anet watch this too )

 

(I miss Necromancer Profession weapon; Scythe, Before the release of Reaper, many players including myself, was hoping that it would use scythe weapon like Grenth.- God of Death)

 

Here is  link description of Scythe in Guild Wars

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Scythe

 

An here is The Holy Grail of Scythe skills for the Dervish Profession

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Scythe_Mastery

 

Here is a easter egg for Necromancer Profession-Reaper...they use Scythe weapons 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dhuum's_Soul_Reaper

 

secrets to Necromancer Profession Full Potential

side note-

Even better.

"Long before the Exodus of the Gods, Dhuum was challenged and usurped by Grenth and seven heroes who followed him and was struck down in the ossuary of the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Orr. Dhuum's tower was shattered, creating the Chaos Plains, and his power was transferred to Grenth, who sealed him within the Hall of Judgement behind enchanted doors and layers of divine magic as he was unable to destroy"

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dhuum

 

What does this mean for Necromancer Profession Potential?

What this mean is; Necromancer Profession has full complete access and control to Reapers, Dhumm, Grenth and Dervish Profession powers with their utilities.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish

 

In other word; 

Anet Can Do Wonders With Necromancer Profession 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[mandala.8507]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

We are in an era where a group need 4 roles and, while some specs can contend for 3 of those roles, reaper is trying to contend on the single least attractive one. Reaper need to be able to contend on at least 1 more role and that's where it need buffs.

I don't agree. Reaper makes zero sense outside of the dps role and has 2 very compelling dps modes you can choose from within the spec. Also, it's one of the strongest (if not the strongest) open world specs in the game due to its wealth of valuable self-support.

It has an excellent weapon in greatsword and reaper shroud is the most compelling of the necro shrouds imo.

It just suffers from being part of the necro class, which while having lots of seemingly interesting options from an RPG perspective in the traitlines and utility skills, most of the actually interesting options are super weak compared to the meta stuff you run on most dps and even open world builds.

Death Magic and Blood Magic, for instance, have lots of cool stuff going on, but they're just not that strong and the opportunity cost for running them over Spite, Soul Reaping, or Curses is astronomically high.

On top of this, core necro weapons are really dull relative to the repertoire of most other classes.

But yeah...Anet trying to give reaper group support capacity would be a huge unforced error and there's no way to make a reaper support class compelling to play. It would be just like banner warrior where every possible support build is a boon dps that feels utterly less fun to play than going full damage.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Death Magic and Blood Magic, for instance, have lots of cool stuff going on, but they're just not that strong and the opportunity cost for running them over Spite, Soul Reaping, or Curses is astronomically high.

Blood magic used to be good until Anet systematically dismantled everything good about it. Let's hope they don't know about Last Rites, its the only trait that makes it worth taking especially on harb. Death Magic has always been trash, though to Anets credit it is better than the garbage we had before.

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

But yeah...Anet trying to give reaper group support capacity would be a huge unforced error and there's no way to make a reaper support class compelling to play. It would be just like banner warrior where every possible support build is a boon dps that feels utterly less fun to play than going full damage.

I'd rather see a reaper tank than a reaper support. It would fit the brawler theme more.

Blighters Boon should be a minor since reaper has poor sustain, then the grandmaster can be freed to give reaper some iframes, or to lean into the second healthbar and make it a viable defense.

Maybe it could limit the amount of damage reaper can receive from a single attack while in shroud. Something like 1000 max hit, then reaper tanks could survive the one shot mechanics without needing iframes. Tanking would revolve around knowing the bosses rotation to keep shroud up at the right time. 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/30/2023 at 2:42 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

You think that forcefully bringing reaper's strike dps potential to 40k is something good? I do not.

When the top dps builds could only barely reach 33k dps potential, you could already bypass mechanics through dps. Do you need to have 40+k dps potential to do the same nowadays? Not at all.

The end game content don't need such high dps potential. Giving reaper that is merely making him chase the tails of the other top scorer who have more dps potential than needed and will still be ahead of reaper after the update.

In other words, 40k dps is merely flatting reaper's players vanity. Will it create more build diversity for reaper? Of course not. Will it make reaper a meaningful option against the handful of builds that can potentially dish out more damage than it does? Nope.

And if, despite that hard reality check, reaper still rise to be the favored pick in PvE, truly getting it's 30% playrate, the only possible outcome would be a forum burning with "rightful indignation" which would ultimately lead to nerfs.

 

I'll be happy for reaper the day the devs will stop doing the same thing again and again with reaper and finally start to work on the build diversity of this spec.

If Arenanet was to rebalance the game so that damage was lower overall, this argument would have legs, but the fact of the matter is that ~40k dps is about what people expect from perfect execution of a DPS build (apart from nearly foolproof builds like riflemech). If reaper is to be competitive, it needs to be balanced according to where the meta is, not to where you think it should be - especially when the devs appear to disagree.

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

I'd rather see a reaper tank than a reaper support. It would fit the brawler theme more.

Reaper was originally designed as a brawler but it was pushed more into the glass pistol role because it was ineffective as a brawler since it was slow and chill was made obsolete the moment reaper hit the game since leaps were made to be no longer affected by chill and cripple. Add to the mobility creep over time, especially with the focus on teleports, along with the steady push towards burst damage both in pof and after EOD which necromancer as a whole is terrible able dealing with and you see that a brawler reaper does not work at all. Its why even during the last 3v3 season where people were all hyped up about blighters boon and I kept telling them it wouldn't work as they thought it would, that whole build fell off once they realized how useless they were. As dadnir said, its reaper's onslaught the entire way through forever and ever.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

5 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Reaper was originally designed as a brawler but it was pushed more into the glass pistol role because it was ineffective as a brawler since it was slow and chill was made obsolete the moment reaper hit the game since leaps were made to be no longer affected by chill and cripple. Add to the mobility creep over time, especially with the focus on teleports, along with the steady push towards burst damage both in pof and after EOD which necromancer as a whole is terrible able dealing with and you see that a brawler reaper does not work at all. Its why even during the last 3v3 season where people were all hyped up about blighters boon and I kept telling them it wouldn't work as they thought it would, that whole build fell off once they realized how useless they were. As dadnir said, its reaper's onslaught the entire way through forever and ever.

Exactly, Blighter's Boon will never compete with Reaper's Onslaught. It would work much better as a minor trait, Reaper could use the extra sustain to be self sufficient.

The new grandmaster could then provide additional defense to give reaper the option to spec into the brawler role. It may even be able to side node. 

[Nephalem.8921]

22 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Just ask yourself what traits you use on reaper and since when you do so. Reaper players have been stuck using soul eater and reaper's onslaught in PvE since 2018. I'll even add the pretty bad chilling nova as a default trait. Even in competitive modes the majority of the builds have been relying on those 2-3 traits since 2018.

So does weaver. And soulbeast. And a bunch of other good specs.

22 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As for the other traitlines in PvE? Unwaveringly Spite and Soul reaping (and always the same traits taken withing those traitlines). The only notable change we've had in 5 years for reaper is probably well of darkness being used as a dps skill. (ok, someone tried to make people consider a signet build a few years ago, build that ultimately fell into oblivion quite quickly)

 

Reaper don't need more strike damage output, it need changes that are attractive enough for players to break free from this 5 year old build that have already receive dps buff more than 10 time without ever actually making reaper attractive despite bringing him within 2k of the top dps quite a few time.

We are in an era where a group need 4 roles and, while some specs can contend for 3 of those roles, reaper is trying to contend on the single least attractive one. Reaper need to be able to contend on at least 1 more role and that's where it need buffs.

Reaper needs more strike dmg output. It races supports currently. Even if you give it an alac role it would still need its dps fixed. It was never within 2k of top dps unless you mean condi reaper. Power reaper was always garbage.

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It was never within 2k of top dps unless you mean condi reaper.

You sir don't have an outstanding memory (me neither yet I can still remember cases where strike damage reaper was indeed within 2k dps of the top damage dealer). You probably forgot about these cases because, indeed, it didn't do much good to reaper's popularity in PvE groups. (chich is the core of my argument anyway)

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If Arenanet was to rebalance the game so that damage was lower overall, this argument would have legs, but the fact of the matter is that ~40k dps is about what people expect from perfect execution of a DPS build (apart from nearly foolproof builds like riflemech). If reaper is to be competitive, it needs to be balanced according to where the meta is, not to where you think it should be - especially when the devs appear to disagree.

Well, on one side the developper claim that: "we don't want powercreep" and the other they sure act in a totally different way. Let's be clear, it's not reaper that need to have it's dps raised but the overperforming specs that need their dps tuned down. As it stand the support specs already have enough damage output that having a pure dps character in a group is unnecessary.

14 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I don't agree. Reaper makes zero sense outside of the dps role and has 2 very compelling dps modes you can choose from within the spec.

DPS is not an attractive role to a group, we are no longer in 2015 where dps was the only thing people had in mind when thinking PvE. I think that the issue with most people here supporting "dps reaper", they just don't quite yet get after 8 years that a Pure selfish dps is a lesser option in a group.

And even if you want to have a blast alone in open world PvE, you absolutely don't need to have high raid benchmark for that.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Nephalem.8921]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You sir don't have an outstanding memory (me neither yet I can still remember cases where strike damage reaper was indeed within 2k dps of the top damage dealer). You probably forgot about these cases because, indeed, it didn't do much good to reaper's popularity in PvE groups. (chich is the core of my argument anyway)

I have pretty good memory. The only good reaper builds were condi reaper. Power was always lacking far behind.

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, on one side the developper claim that: "we don't want powercreep" and the other they sure act in a totally different way. Let's be clear, it's not reaper that need to have it's dps raised but the overperforming specs that need their dps tuned down. As it stand the support specs already have enough damage output that having a pure dps character in a group is unnecessary.

????????????

Its not reaper being bad, everything else is just op?

There is no need to take multiple supports for a role when one can do it. The goal is still to kill the boss. Dps achieves this. Some speedkills play completely without supports.

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

DPS is not an attractive role to a group, we are no longer in 2015 where dps was the only thing people had in mind when thinking PvE. I think that the issue with most people here supporting "dps reaper", they just don't quite yet get after 8 years that a Pure selfish dps is a lesser option in a group.

And even if you want to have a blast alone in open world PvE, you absolutely don't need to have high raid benchmark for that.

DPS is still the most required role in a group. You are mixing up utility and support. Reaper has enough utility to be a decent choice but currently it just costs too much dps to justify it. Spectral grasp, boonrip and cc are good. The only limiting factor was damage.

Dps is still the only thing in mind in endgame. Dps while still being able to do all mechanics. What else would you optimize? Feels per second?

[Nimon.7840]

On 4/30/2023 at 6:35 PM, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

For a start, I’d love being able to bring mh dagger to reaper. Right now it’s only gs which isn’t fun at all

Just don't use mh dagger and other bad weapons. If noone does, it'll eventually pop up in anets metrics and they will eventually buff/rework it.

Realistically only full heal scourge uses dagger right now. And even there are better options in most situations:

Staff: ranged, regeneration from skill 2

Axe: ranged, vulnerability support and ae- boon remove

Szepter: ranged, lower cooldown boon remove than mh dagger

Dagger: only if you want the immobilize or need the heal from dagger 2.

Life force shouldn't be an issue with a full heal build, since you normally run quite a bit of vitality on heal scourge.

 

[mandala.8507]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:35 PM, mandala.8507 said:

This gave me what my pull on current patch would translate to on May 2 patch: 36470

The math was mathing.

[Burnfall.9573]

11 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

The math was mathing.

 

Thank You!

Edited May 2, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[mandala.8507]

And, uh...

On 4/28/2023 at 3:35 PM, mandala.8507 said:

• Meta Power Reaper Self-Quick: 37-38k
• LI Signet Power Reaper Self-Quick: 36k

It turns out these estimates were low 😬

Based on the fact that I hit 34.5k despite how poorly I executed this pull, I'm guessing someone could hit almost 39k self-quick, so...do with that information what you will.

[Griifen.2473]

I had a look at axe/focus with the buffs they got
It looks like the axe 2, axe 3, and focus 5 will pull ahead of staff skills by about 10k damage, but it's going to cost you around 3k dps while in shroud due to the smaller weapon strength of axe... and since we remain in shroud for more than 4 seconds it can't be justified to take in the end.
I'm sure people can take axe/focus instead of staff and still do well enough, but the meta build will remain staff.

BUT! (and it's a big, BIG BUT)
Focus 4 is bugged right now -> it cannot crit, like at all. It's got something stupid like 7k base damage (with 25 might, which is2k more than gravedigger!) so it'll probably crit for over 40k damage... if it could crit that is XD
I think if Anet allow for (or fix) focus 4 to be able to crit then axe/focus will 100% become the meta over staff.
Otherwise those axe and focus buffs amount to... nothing 😞

[mandala.8507]

8 minutes ago, Griifen.2473 said:

BUT! (and it's a big, BIG BUT)
Focus 4 is bugged right now -> it cannot crit, like at all. It's got something stupid like 7k base damage (with 25 might, which is2k more than gravedigger!) so it'll probably crit for over 40k damage... if it could crit that is XD
I think if Anet allow for (or fix) focus 4 to be able to crit then axe/focus will 100% become the meta over staff.
Otherwise those axe and focus buffs amount to... nothing 😞

Life siphon damage can't crit. It's not a bug.

[Asum.4960]

14 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Life siphon damage can't crit. It's not a bug.

This ^

Why Soul Grasp and Locust Swarm will always be trash/incredibly niche skills as long as they are tied to the Life Siphon mechanic.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

ok... Not impressed =:/

so far, I managed 36.5k with food/utility and a maximum of 38.5k if Sigil's conditions are meet WITH my old "Wells" build and a maximum of 40k with "Shouts". Now, we sure got some good dmg boost but now Death's Charge and Executioner's Scythe are out of my rotation so basically, I have to spam RS auto-attack most of the time if I want maximum damage and that's kinda boring.

edit: ok, with "Shouts" I have an average of 39k with a burst of 53k dps.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Arianth Moonlight.6453