With the probable end of elite specs, is anyone else even more upset that Catalyst exists?

[Kyraios.8954]

12 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

True, who would have expected them to fall so low that catalyst would end up as a poor crossbreed of the 2 previous specs.

I don't really care about the overall performances, the devs already proved that they can just inflate numbers as much as they think is needed to transform lead into gold. No, what really was upseting was the clear lack of originality of the concept.

 

Especially the ult. As much as I love how cheesy it is, pressing 1 button to reset your skills as an ultimate is the epitome of laziness. 

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

i was most upset about the RANGE of Hammer being the new weapon. it was exactly the same range as Dagger / dagger: 0-600. it basically that someone said: i want to kite with my low range build! and that's what happened. it was the third close-range e-spec in a row for Elementalist. 

 

Tempest: class mechanic: Overloads... close range

Weaver: class weapon: sword: melee range

Catalyst: class weapon: Hammer : same range as close range dagger dagger.

 

but i've said all this before. so i feel like a broken record.

 

After the next expansion, if speculation is correct about weapons / utilities from E-specs being unlocked for Core... that would offer a lot of close range stuff for Elementalist. I can only hope that future new tools will include ranged (1200+) DPS weapons (not like staff where only 1 element is DPS, 2 elements are CC, and 1 element is full healing / CC support)

 

there's plenty of GW1 skills with elemental arrows that combined would make a great DPS longbow (preferred 1500 range) where longbow could use staff-like animations for spells that could fill in the gaps of non-arrow skills. Anet has archived my class e-spec brainstorms from the past, "Celestial" was the name of the spec i used, but the longbow was my idea of bringing back those GW1 arrow skills with other elemental spells, like Javelins and certain obsidian earth spells

[Kyraios.8954]

1 hour ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

i was most upset about the RANGE of Hammer being the new weapon. it was exactly the same range as Dagger / dagger: 0-600. it basically that someone said: i want to kite with my low range build! and that's what happened. it was the third close-range e-spec in a row for Elementalist. 

 

Tempest: class mechanic: Overloads... close range

Weaver: class weapon: sword: melee range

Catalyst: class weapon: Hammer : same range as close range dagger dagger.

 

but i've said all this before. so i feel like a broken record.

 

After the next expansion, if speculation is correct about weapons / utilities from E-specs being unlocked for Core... that would offer a lot of close range stuff for Elementalist. I can only hope that future new tools will include ranged (1200+) DPS weapons (not like staff where only 1 element is DPS, 2 elements are CC, and 1 element is full healing / CC support)

 

there's plenty of GW1 skills with elemental arrows that combined would make a great DPS longbow (preferred 1500 range) where longbow could use staff-like animations for spells that could fill in the gaps of non-arrow skills. Anet has archived my class e-spec brainstorms from the past, "Celestial" was the name of the spec i used, but the longbow was my idea of bringing back those GW1 arrow skills with other elemental spells, like Javelins and certain obsidian earth spells

I think majority of the ele community wanted longbow to be the weapon for catalyst based off a poll that was taken before the specs were announced. And after that, so many threads asking to redo catalyst after they gave us a preview of it came up as well. 

 

Im really hoping, if we at least get new weapons, the next weapon will be a longbow. Kind of ridiculous that mesmer has more 1200 range weapons than we do with 10x the potency. Though im sure if they did, it would be as useless as staff simply because we have more skills to use lol.

[crosknight.3041]

If i could rework the catalyst on a mechanical level

Jade Sphere would now be a Toggle (a couple of trait reworks would incentivize toggling off), the field it creates is centered on the catalyst with field changing based on attunement. energy thrown into the trash can.
Hammer Orbs removed from hammer (new skills put in place), now created when the catalyst does a combo finisher in respective field. Grand finale casts when all 4 hammers are active and the catalyst swaps attunements or catalyst toggles off the sphere.
catalyst quickness no longer bonus boon for air field, now quickness applies when you perform a combo regardless of combo effect if trait is selected.

this would actually give it actual flavor.
obviously other traits would have to be changed too, less passive stat bonuses and more actual effects that can vary different catalyst builds
 

[Coldtart.4785]

It's hard to give proper feedback for catalyst because I'm tempted to just say "scrap it and start from scratch" but realistically the assets made for it would all have to be used somehow. If catalyst was to be reworked I think these are my biggest issues with it:

The hammer doesn't feel like a hammer. Hammers normally have big, slow attacks with lots of aoe and cc to make sure the slow doesn't cripple the big. Take fire 1 for example: look how fast that hammer moves all to throw a dinky little projectile that hits one target for scratch damage. How about we get a melee weapon with range pokes through having some aoes that are so huge they work as range pokes?

The jade spheres are boring busywork. You won't run out of energy, the skills are instant cast and there's little concern of running out of the aoe. They're just free boons to keep up with ten years of boon creep. I think making some facet-type upkeep skills out of the hammer orb visuals and possibly some part of the augment skill functions with an f5 skill to consume the 'facets' would be a good idea.

The augments are also quite boring. Basically just stances from weaver a second time. If we moved the jade sphere elemental creatures visuals off the profession mechanic they could easily work as the visuals for some wells, which would go nicely with the aoe tendencies of hammers. Something that might work as a fun mechanic here would be tagging allies with a buff that grants special benefits when using combo finishers without actually counting as combo fields so that you could effectively combo in a regular field and a well at the same time.

On the topic of combos, I think getting extra benefits from comboing is a nice theme for a spec called catalyst but it could be more interesting. The only combo benefit for catalyst is aura spam and there's nothing for comboing with an ally. I think aura spam should stay a tempest thing and it would be nice if there was some benefit for allies using your combo fields as well. Maybe you could have a way give allies a bonus attack (like what overload air does) that triggers a combo finisher to really push combos as the main draw.

[TheGrimoire.4039]

Catalyst is the most disappointing thing I've had the misfortune of experiencing ever since I started playing a few months after launch.

 

It is so uninspired, dull, and lackluster, that to say it left a sour taste in my mouth it's an understatement.

And now, with no more elite specs to, AFTER 10 YEARS, give us a ranged elite specialization... it makes me not want to pick up the game anymore.

 

At this point, I'm just waiting on the sidelines to see what they do with the "combat features" in the new paid living wo... expansion, otherwise I am so done with it.

 

Catalyst ruined my overall enjoyment of the class, but I think it has more to do with the design decisions ANet has made for Elementalist and this particular elite specialization.

 

I still love Staff to death and have been using it non-stop pretty much, but after so many years, it gets really stale.

 

I'll also leave this video here from when they announced Catalyst: 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, TheGrimoire.4039 said:

I'll also leave this video here from when they announced Catalyst: 

 

Hammer, from a purely conceptual viewpoint, is fine. It's a staff with a heavy bit on one end. A weapon which is genuinely a melee weapon in some attunements and a ranged weapon in others, therefore replicating what other professions can achieve simply by having a melee set and a ranged set, is something that some people were asking for.

Nobody asked for Dagger 2.0 where the 'ranged' is 600 and you have several reasons why it's not really practical to actually go outside of melee range even on those attunements. Not knocking dagger, but... well, we already had dagger.

Nobody asked for another 'cycle through all your attunements to build up an ability' mechanic. Not knocking the weaver elite, but we already had the weaver elite.

Nobody asked for another aura-focused specialisation. Not knocking aura builds, but Tempest already did that pretty well.

Nobody asked for three separate stacking buffs in one traitline. Not knocking builds that use stacking unique buffs, but that's excessive, especially when the damage-oriented grandmaster does nothing unless one of them is maxed out.

Nobody asked for another set of what were essentially stances. Not knocking Weaver stance builds, but Weaver already covered that, without an awkward conditional on top.

Most importantly:

Nobody, after Tempest and Weaver, was asking for a "steady presence in melee combat" specialisation. People were asking for sword for a while before Weaver was released, but once it was, I'm pretty sure that pretty much the entire community was looking forward to something more range-oriented.

All this is forgivable if another elite specialisation does come down the line that isn't immediately marketed as melee Elementalist, but if there are only going to be three, it really shouldn't have been three melee-oriented specialisations.

[Markus.6415]

On 5/3/2023 at 8:00 AM, Doggie.3184 said:

I still think Hammer is literally the worst possible choice of all weapons for what's supposed to be the Wizard/Mage class and a total waste of an Elite Spec weapon because they could have just buffed Sword to be a mix of Range and Melee instead and ditched the unfun spinning orbs Hammer 3 mechanic all together. There's just 0 reason for the Hammer's poor attempt at a Red Mage style when Weaver already exists. It's a shame they can't undo the weapon.

I really think that there could have been amazing mid range abilities for the hammer that actually look and feel powerful and impactful. But unfortunately Anet went for the most boring skills with the opportunity to reuse as many skill effects to make it as little work as possible. Or someone was in charge of creating the espec that has 0 interest or imagination for Elementalist.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 minutes ago, Markus.6415 said:

I really think that there could have been amazing mid range abilities for the hammer that actually look and feel powerful and impactful. But unfortunately Anet went for the most boring skills with the opportunity to reuse as many skill effects to make it as little work as possible. Or someone was in charge of creating the espec that has 0 interest or imagination for Elementalist.

Why not both?

There are some good ideas in Catalyst, but the implementation... oh, the implementation.

[Infinity.2876]

Catalyst's theme is being ridiculously powerful.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:11 AM, Lighter.5631 said:

you just described the entire warrior class lol

I mean...don't you just LOVE being a barely workable melee in an ACTION rpg?

[Serephen.3420]

On 5/6/2023 at 10:24 AM, crosknight.3041 said:

If i could rework the catalyst on a mechanical level

Jade Sphere would now be a Toggle (a couple of trait reworks would incentivize toggling off), the field it creates is centered on the catalyst with field changing based on attunement. energy thrown into the trash can.
Hammer Orbs removed from hammer (new skills put in place), now created when the catalyst does a combo finisher in respective field. Grand finale casts when all 4 hammers are active and the catalyst swaps attunements or catalyst toggles off the sphere.
catalyst quickness no longer bonus boon for air field, now quickness applies when you perform a combo regardless of combo effect if trait is selected.

this would actually give it actual flavor.
obviously other traits would have to be changed too, less passive stat bonuses and more actual effects that can vary different catalyst builds
 

Honestly while I'm not entirely sure about the toggle idea, I absolutely love your idea regarding combos especially as a way of giving quickness. It would probably be one of the more unique boon providers in the game that way. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Serephen.3420
Spelling typo

[Serephen.3420]

On 5/6/2023 at 2:40 PM, Coldtart.4785 said:

It's hard to give proper feedback for catalyst because I'm tempted to just say "scrap it and start from scratch" but realistically the assets made for it would all have to be used somehow. If catalyst was to be reworked I think these are my biggest issues with it:

The hammer doesn't feel like a hammer. Hammers normally have big, slow attacks with lots of aoe and cc to make sure the slow doesn't cripple the big. Take fire 1 for example: look how fast that hammer moves all to throw a dinky little projectile that hits one target for scratch damage. How about we get a melee weapon with range pokes through having some aoes that are so huge they work as range pokes?

The jade spheres are boring busywork. You won't run out of energy, the skills are instant cast and there's little concern of running out of the aoe. They're just free boons to keep up with ten years of boon creep. I think making some facet-type upkeep skills out of the hammer orb visuals and possibly some part of the augment skill functions with an f5 skill to consume the 'facets' would be a good idea.

The augments are also quite boring. Basically just stances from weaver a second time. If we moved the jade sphere elemental creatures visuals off the profession mechanic they could easily work as the visuals for some wells, which would go nicely with the aoe tendencies of hammers. Something that might work as a fun mechanic here would be tagging allies with a buff that grants special benefits when using combo finishers without actually counting as combo fields so that you could effectively combo in a regular field and a well at the same time.

On the topic of combos, I think getting extra benefits from comboing is a nice theme for a spec called catalyst but it could be more interesting. The only combo benefit for catalyst is aura spam and there's nothing for comboing with an ally. I think aura spam should stay a tempest thing and it would be nice if there was some benefit for allies using your combo fields as well. Maybe you could have a way give allies a bonus attack (like what overload air does) that triggers a combo finisher to really push combos as the main draw.

I was originally hoping for the utilities to be the wells they showed in the preview.

[Val.7826]

I keep thinking the third E-Spec of Elementalist should have recived a longbow or a rifle instead of the hammer

Edited May 8, 2023 by Val.7826

[cyberzombie.7348]

Personally wouldn't consider myself upset but rather confused of its concept. Because according to its lore its suppoed to be a sluggish frontliner spec. With it's hammer being less agile but more damaging than daggers. Though none of it's kit really screams that in practice. Even d/wh tempest does a better job.

It's utility skills and half the traits also leave more questions than answers. 

[Batalix.2873]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:04 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I tend to roll my eyes at claims that the elite specialisations are themed around specific elements, especially when this is backed up by saying that Tempest is air (look past the promo artwork of a Tempest using Air Overload and look at what the traits actually do - if it's anything, it's water). It is possible to make a tanky earth-themed catalyst if you're so inclined, it's just that most people don't. Yes, you'll need to swap attunements for efficient gameplay even without the silly orb mechanic, but that's elementalist in general.

 

The thing that ticks me off outside of the general "feels like they raided what was left on the cutting room floor after Tempest and Weaver" thing is that how many trait slots that could have had something interesting are instead stuffed with "build up a stacking buff" mechanics. There are a few of these on other professions, but with Catalyst, more than half of the traits are built around such mechanics, with the potential to have three separate stacking buffs just off Catalyst (Hardened Auras, Empowering Auras, and Elemental Empowerment, although the first of those is rarely if ever used) and a GM that does nothing unless you focus on getting one of those maxed out. That's a lot of trait space that could have been used to create some more interesting interactions.

 

Just have to point out that the unique warhorn skin, and the unique shoulder piece, are both very "air attunement" themed.

 

I use the distinction very loosely, because obviously Tempest is about "forces of nature" that equally include earthquakes, just as Weaver does have an unusually high number of "stone"-related traits/skills/effects. But it seems that Tempest leans into "storms" the same way that Weaver leans into "duality" for their core aesthetics, a fact which is supported by the fact that Weaver's unique runes specifically buff burn and chill durations, while Tempest's unique runes focus on...condi duration and stunbreaks.

(I could easily make similar observations about other classes that "feel" one way but have designed away from that. Tempest and Cata are by far not the only classes to do so.)

I actually just made a Cataboontank with scepter and hardened auras to see if it could work, and it almost does (so true for so many things ele). Regarding "too many buffs" in the traitlines, I'm actually not opposed to the idea that Catalyst wants to "pump" itself up, since enhancement does seem to be the core fantasy of geomancer/shaman archetypes. I also can't even commit to exactly what "too many" would be, since imo Catalyst is a concept that wants to get their dopamine from watching all those little boons line up. Parsing them out though, I do see a problem.

 

Hardened Auras is well-implemented and works naturally with Catalyst's sphere -> combo -> aura loop, as well as emphasizing a niche "tanky" angle that imo comes together far better than a Tempest just slapping protection on auras with elemental shielding (as well as heavily relying on a single water trait to really function). I like that it differentiates from Tempest by being *only* about your own aura, although it probably deserves a buff to actually encourage use, maybe by upping the cap and removing the "reset timer". Empowering Auras I think is also fair in a vacuum as a counterpart to Hardened Auras, since it is a self-contained trait that doesn't dominate choices. I similarly think that removing the cap on this would be a more engaging method of offensive play than relying on EE. The weird thing is that these two traits basically do what Elemental Empowerment wants to do to much greater effect. i.e. they are both self-contained and specific in a way that facilitates traitline choice rather than dominating it.

 

I think the real problem is Elemental Empowerment, for the reason you mention. The buff itself is passive and pretty much applied as an afterthought, and only has full effectiveness with all three traits and the parasitic GM trait. And yeah, I guess if you are running pure DPS you're probably not going to take the tanky first line or the boony third line of traits and focus purely on EE. But unlike most other DPS classes that place DPS more directly within agency of the player, EE is fairly unengaging  and unimaginative. Furthermore, I think being empowered by "disabling" a foe has virtually nothing to do with Catalyst's core fantasy AND is stepping on the toes of Untamed, which would not have come together at all as a concept without Fervent Fervor.

 

Imo, the entire middle line needs to be reworked with a new gimmick. EE should be removed and replaced with a new concept. Personally I think that selfish DPS Catalyst should be *forced* to use their jade sphere fields in some way. And I also feel like there should be at least one trait that actually makes Augments usable. Given that Augments are also selfish boons, I feel like the two would synergize well. Use one trait to add a third or even fourth tier of effects to Augments when used in your jade sphere. I also think the Hammer 3 orbs are somewhat underutilized and indirectly facilitate the same aim as DPS-oriented debuffs, so maybe the same orbs could be thrown onto augments as well with another trait--I would definitely use augments if say they spawned two or three of the same elemental orb.

 

In general, I think the middle traitline should move away from "self-buffing" (which the first line already does), and instead toward DPS through *debuffing*. Overall, Catalyst's benches might suffer a bit with the refocus, but IMO Weaver should be consistently more DPS-y than Catalyst by design.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Serephen.3420]

45 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

Just have to point out that the unique warhorn skin, and the unique shoulder piece, are both very "air attunement" themed.

 

I use the distinction very loosely, because obviously Tempest is about "forces of nature" that equally include earthquakes, just as Weaver does have an unusually high number of "stone"-related traits/skills/effects. But it seems that Tempest leans into "storms" the same way that Weaver leans into "duality" for their core aesthetics, a fact which is supported by the fact that Weaver's unique runes specifically buff burn and chill durations, while Tempest's unique runes focus on...condi duration and stunbreaks.

(I could easily make similar observations about other classes that "feel" one way but have designed away from that. Tempest and Cata are by far not the only classes to do so.)

I actually just made a Cataboontank with scepter and hardened auras to see if it could work, and it almost does (so true for so many things ele). Regarding "too many buffs" in the traitlines, I'm actually not opposed to the idea that Catalyst wants to "pump" itself up, since enhancement does seem to be the core fantasy of geomancer/shaman archetypes. I also can't even commit to exactly what "too many" would be, since imo Catalyst is a concept that wants to get their dopamine from watching all those little boons line up. Parsing them out though, I do see a problem.

 

Hardened Auras is well-implemented and works naturally with Catalyst's sphere -> combo -> aura loop, as well as emphasizing a niche "tanky" angle that imo comes together far better than a Tempest just slapping protection on auras with elemental shielding (as well as heavily relying on a single water trait to really function). I like that it differentiates from Tempest by being *only* about your own aura, although it probably deserves a buff to actually encourage use, maybe by upping the cap and removing the "reset timer". Empowering Auras I think is also fair in a vacuum as a counterpart to Hardened Auras, since it is a self-contained trait that doesn't dominate choices. I similarly think that removing the cap on this would be a more engaging method of offensive play than relying on EE. The weird thing is that these two traits basically do what Elemental Empowerment wants to do to much greater effect. i.e. they are both self-contained and specific in a way that facilitates traitline choice rather than dominating it.

 

I think the real problem is Elemental Empowerment, for the reason you mention. The buff itself is passive and pretty much applied as an afterthought, and only has full effectiveness with all three traits and the parasitic GM trait. And yeah, I guess if you are running pure DPS you're probably not going to take the tanky first line or the boony third line of traits and focus purely on EE. But unlike most other DPS classes that place DPS more directly within agency of the player, EE is fairly unengaging  and unimaginative. Furthermore, I think being empowered by "disabling" a foe has virtually nothing to do with Catalyst's core fantasy AND is stepping on the toes of Untamed, which would not have come together at all as a concept without Fervent Fervor.

 

Imo, the entire middle line needs to be reworked with a new gimmick. EE should be removed and replaced with a new concept. Personally I think that selfish DPS Catalyst should be *forced* to use their jade sphere fields in some way. And I also feel like there should be at least one trait that actually makes Augments usable. Given that Augments are also selfish boons, I feel like the two would synergize well. Use one trait to add a third or even fourth tier of effects to Augments when used in your jade sphere. I also think the Hammer 3 orbs are somewhat underutilized and indirectly facilitate the same aim as DPS-oriented debuffs, so maybe the same orbs could be thrown onto augments as well with another trait--I would definitely use augments if say they spawned two or three of the same elemental orb.

 

In general, I think the middle traitline should move away from "self-buffing" (which the first line already does), and instead toward DPS through *debuffing*. Overall, Catalyst's benches might suffer a bit with the refocus, but IMO Weaver should be consistently more DPS-y than Catalyst by design.

While I agree with some of your earlier points. Weaver is already more dps-y than cata and has a higher bench that is now more easily achieved imo compared to cata from my experience.

 

But yes, I'm not a fan of the overreliance on elemental empowerment. There could be more interesting traits put in its place instead. But if completely removed it would require some baseline buffs to cata and possibly shifting some of that into traits as the spec has been balanced around the premise of having it.

 

While the bottom line does interact with the sphere, I remember in the beta already wishing there were more traits focusing on how the sphere works and how you interact with it. Though at this point I'd be grateful if they at least remove the energy mechanic until they can work out a better way to implement it. Catalyst is far too cluttered and messy as it is.

[Batalix.2873]

57 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

While I agree with some of your earlier points. Weaver is already more dps-y than cata and has a higher bench that is now more easily achieved imo compared to cata from my experience.

 

But yes, I'm not a fan of the overreliance on elemental empowerment. There could be more interesting traits put in its place instead. But if completely removed it would require some baseline buffs to cata and possibly shifting some of that into traits as the spec has been balanced around the premise of having it.

 

While the bottom line does interact with the sphere, I remember in the beta already wishing there were more traits focusing on how the sphere works and how you interact with it. Though at this point I'd be grateful if they at least remove the energy mechanic until they can work out a better way to implement it. Catalyst is far too cluttered and messy as it is.

 

Oh absolutely the removal of EE would necessitate bumping up numbers. But imo for arguably the most passive, background espec buff in the game, it might as well be replaced with a flat number boost anyway for all the interest it adds.

 

Yes the bottom line enhances the jade sphere, but my point about "interaction" is that the bottom line doesn't care if the Cata themselves is in the sphere. It can just as easily provide a remote buff to everyone else (which I imagine could be a cool clutch feature to have in certain raids). What I mean is that not a single trait incentivizes the Cata themselves to specifically be inside the sphere. And if we are going to have selfish DPS traits, I would rather they actually interact with some aspect of the Cata (not necessarily the sphere) than just passively accumulate like EE with unnatural, dumb triggers like disable and dodge.

 

I really like energy from a design perspective, I don't want it removed and the sphere just turned into another Overload or Well. I think it's a very good concept. The problem with energy is not that it exists, but that (1) you generate a bit too slowly, (2) it is exclusively determined by hits instead of something more natural to cata like, I don't know, boon ticks, or orbs summons (provided we could summon MORE ORBS YESSS), and (3) the interface is awful and needs to be larger and more legible. If they fixed those problems I think energy is perfectly logical for Catalyst and adds some much needed flavor and coherency to the whole "jade sphere" thing.

 

Apparently in beta versions energy was kind of built and drained by a single orb that you kept out. I actually wish we had kept more of that inherent design, since I still don't think it's fair that Jade Spheres--cutting edge technology--stay up for far less time than Scourge shades.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

Just have to point out that the unique warhorn skin, and the unique shoulder piece, are both very "air attunement" themed.

 

I use the distinction very loosely, because obviously Tempest is about "forces of nature" that equally include earthquakes, just as Weaver does have an unusually high number of "stone"-related traits/skills/effects. But it seems that Tempest leans into "storms" the same way that Weaver leans into "duality" for their core aesthetics, a fact which is supported by the fact that Weaver's unique runes specifically buff burn and chill durations, while Tempest's unique runes focus on...condi duration and stunbreaks.

(I could easily make similar observations about other classes that "feel" one way but have designed away from that. Tempest and Cata are by far not the only classes to do so.)

The visuals are how a lot of people justify connecting it to air, but if you look at the traits and skills, they're very water-like. Most of the shouts are essentially ways of getting the benefit of Powerful Auras without having to take Powerful Auras. Tempest has traits related to healing, to generating Frost Aura, and to switching to Water Attunement, which is the sort of thing that you'd otherwise associate with the water traitline. 

The truth is that it's really storm-themed, not themed around a single element. Storms are normally most associated with water and air, but there are firestorm and duststorm themes in there as well.

4 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I actually just made a Cataboontank with scepter and hardened auras to see if it could work, and it almost does (so true for so many things ele). Regarding "too many buffs" in the traitlines, I'm actually not opposed to the idea that Catalyst wants to "pump" itself up, since enhancement does seem to be the core fantasy of geomancer/shaman archetypes. I also can't even commit to exactly what "too many" would be, since imo Catalyst is a concept that wants to get their dopamine from watching all those little boons line up. Parsing them out though, I do see a problem.

 

Hardened Auras is well-implemented and works naturally with Catalyst's sphere -> combo -> aura loop, as well as emphasizing a niche "tanky" angle that imo comes together far better than a Tempest just slapping protection on auras with elemental shielding (as well as heavily relying on a single water trait to really function). I like that it differentiates from Tempest by being *only* about your own aura, although it probably deserves a buff to actually encourage use, maybe by upping the cap and removing the "reset timer". Empowering Auras I think is also fair in a vacuum as a counterpart to Hardened Auras, since it is a self-contained trait that doesn't dominate choices. I similarly think that removing the cap on this would be a more engaging method of offensive play than relying on EE. The weird thing is that these two traits basically do what Elemental Empowerment wants to do to much greater effect. i.e. they are both self-contained and specific in a way that facilitates traitline choice rather than dominating it.

 

I think the real problem is Elemental Empowerment, for the reason you mention. The buff itself is passive and pretty much applied as an afterthought, and only has full effectiveness with all three traits and the parasitic GM trait. And yeah, I guess if you are running pure DPS you're probably not going to take the tanky first line or the boony third line of traits and focus purely on EE. But unlike most other DPS classes that place DPS more directly within agency of the player, EE is fairly unengaging  and unimaginative. Furthermore, I think being empowered by "disabling" a foe has virtually nothing to do with Catalyst's core fantasy AND is stepping on the toes of Untamed, which would not have come together at all as a concept without Fervent Fervor.

 

Imo, the entire middle line needs to be reworked with a new gimmick. EE should be removed and replaced with a new concept. Personally I think that selfish DPS Catalyst should be *forced* to use their jade sphere fields in some way. And I also feel like there should be at least one trait that actually makes Augments usable. Given that Augments are also selfish boons, I feel like the two would synergize well. Use one trait to add a third or even fourth tier of effects to Augments when used in your jade sphere. I also think the Hammer 3 orbs are somewhat underutilized and indirectly facilitate the same aim as DPS-oriented debuffs, so maybe the same orbs could be thrown onto augments as well with another trait--I would definitely use augments if say they spawned two or three of the same elemental orb.

 

In general, I think the middle traitline should move away from "self-buffing" (which the first line already does), and instead toward DPS through *debuffing*. Overall, Catalyst's benches might suffer a bit with the refocus, but IMO Weaver should be consistently more DPS-y than Catalyst by design.

Yeah, the objection is less to the fact that they exist, but that so much of the concept space is taken up by them. 5/9 of the discretionary traits are taken up by them (as well as them popping up in the minors), and with a line being dominated by the spheres, that only leaves Staunch Auras as a trait that does something that isn't 'buff the sphere' or 'stacking buff'.

Which has the effect of pretty much dividing Catalyst builds into two categories - general-purpose sphere builds that use Spectacular Sphere, and selfish DPS builds that run 2-1-2 to maximise the damage output from the stacking buffs. Evasive Empowerment just doesn't get used.

I would agree with you on just wiping Elemental Empowerment altogether and replacing the center line with a new set of traits. It'd need some rebalancing, but I think it would help make catalyst more diverse in the long run. For instance, currently running dagger on catalyst is a bit of a pain because it has relatively limited access to finishers compared to hammer and scepter and thus it's harder for it to build up EE stacks, but if they weren't built into the specialisation, that wouldn't be such a big deal. Hardened Auras and Empowering Auras can carry the theme of stacking buffs in the meantime.

[Blazing Rathalos.1904]

5 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

I really like energy from a design perspective, I don't want it removed and the sphere just turned into another Overload or Well. I think it's a very good concept. The problem with energy is not that it exists, but that (1) you generate a bit too slowly, (2) it is exclusively determined by hits instead of something more natural to cata like, I don't know, boon ticks, or orbs summons (provided we could summon MORE ORBS YESSS), and (3) the interface is awful and needs to be larger and more legible. If they fixed those problems I think energy is perfectly logical for Catalyst and adds some much needed flavor and coherency to the whole "jade sphere" thing.

I agree that energy could be a good design element. After all, we have in core:

1. Adrenaline
2. Life force
3. Revenant energy
4. Endurance

And for elite specs:

1. Astral Force
2. Heat
3. Malice
4. Shadow Force

Those all work, because they don't check every single box on this list at once:

1. Only affects a single skill.
2. Only determines in a binary way whether the skill can be used or not.
3. Is normally only produced in one way.
4. Has only a single trait that interacts with it.

That's boring. So yeah, they need to improve on some of those points, or throw it out.

[Lorendyl Azoradaelas.5203]

Elite specs are basically the dlc version of gw1 multi-classing, to nickel and dime you for every little bit, with some p2w sprinkled in when they accidentally intentionally make them OP during the honeymoon period.

[Mauti.3520]

Personally I am not. I like it. - Only dislike the Hammer.

I like both Tempest and Weaver as well but thing about them is they alter the playstyle of Core Ele so much and also introduce heavy drawbacks - Camping Elements with long interruptable Overloads as Tempest while Weaver delays their off hand Utilities and has a shorter but global attunement cooldown limiting it's ad hoc flexibility greatly.

Catalyst is essentially Core Ele+ which to me is beneficial and good in a lot of ways, even though it might appear as "flavorless" to some.
Edit: The spec itself just needs some more polishing imho and that's it.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Mauti.3520

[The Boz.2038]

...it should have been a Bulletstorm.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Mauti.3520 said:

Personally I am not. I like it. - Only dislike the Hammer.

I like both Tempest and Weaver as well but thing about them is they alter the playstyle of Core Ele so much and also introduce heavy drawbacks - Camping Elements with long interruptable Overloads as Tempest while Weaver delays their off hand Utilities and has a shorter but global attunement cooldown limiting it's ad hoc flexibility greatly.

Catalyst is essentially Core Ele+ which to me is beneficial and good in a lot of ways, even though it might appear as "flavorless" to some.
Edit: The spec itself just needs some more polishing imho and that's it.

I definitely see where you're coming from. However, they could have achieved that without it being a third melee spec that feels like a Weaver/Tempest cross.

[Serephen.3420]

I just really hope Catalyst gets a lot of love in june because it needs it. Even weaver and tempest see higher play rates. It's things like the awful hammer 3 skills (as pretty as they look) amongst many other issues plaguing it that are no longer hidden by artificially boosted numbers. 

Wingman has weaver as the most played ele spec in raids, fractals and strikes. Tempest still shows up but Catalyst doesn't even have a line visible most of the time.

Not just hammer that's the issue but really despite someone's desire for a nostalgia trip which I can appreciate, we really need something other than core ele+ and hammer needs to be less like d/d with less mobility.