Christmas in July? A Right to Bear Arms

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That's fair. My POV on that was to add several soft condis to inhibit the target, that would also be nice cover conditions. I felt that back loading them in strength would be better balance, but I see what you mean. How about:

Bursts cripple your target (5s). Apply additional conditions based on adrenaline spent:

T1: Immobilize (2s)
T2: Slow (3s)
T3: Chill* (3s)

*Not 100% on board with chill, but we get vuln and weakness from elsewhere. This could be 3 stacks of poison for 3s though for T3.

I like your thinking.  My concern (even with what I originally proposed with it being immob + cripple) is balance in competitive modes.  That much immob would quickly become toxic, especially on something like Spellbreaker that has so many bursts.  Imagine FC (with No escape traited) + 2s of  immob from this trait...that's 3s of immob potentially every 8.75s.  And that's just from one burst. Hell, that'd make even Druids jealous (not that I'd mind...stupid tree huggers).  I think, for balance reasons, they would need to treat any sort of trait like this as they did with Cull the Weak and impose a CD per target.  

I do like where you're going with Slow, though.  We have no access to that condition outside of Slow Counter and Aura Slicer, so there's definitely room to add that to Warrior's arsenal more broadly.

 

Maybe a compromise solution might look something like this:

Snaring Blades:
Burst skills inflict immobilize (1s) and Slow (3s).  8s CD per target.

That'd be so strong combined with CtW...A single warrior could seriously hamper an enemy team's ability to fight with all the hard and soft CC and cover condi.  Imagine an Arms/Defense hammer warrior in a teamfight....

 

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think Strength or Discipline may be a better place for an enhanced swiftness. Warrior's Sprint perhaps?

Gain swiftness (4s) on weapon swap. Swiftness on you is 50% more effective (like the ele trait) and grants increased damage (the current splits). Cleanse immobilize when using a movement skill.

You're not wrong.  Could certainly make a lot of sense with Discipline in particular. 

On the other hand, I'd love to see some of the "key functions" of Discipline (esp adrenaline gain, movement speed, immob removal/management) be duplicated in other trait lines in some form or other so that Discipline can maybe, just maybe, stop being so mandatory.   That was part of my idea behind the minor trait in the OP that gives 5 adrenaline when you gain fury; could help make up for losing Discipline's adrenaline on weapon swap.  Similarly, gaining resistance on burst skill use could provide an alternative to the immob removal on Warrior's Sprint, and a trait granting swiftness when you gain Fury could replace the movement speed part of Warrior's Sprint as well.  I'm not married to these particular ideas, btw; just illustrating a general design philosophy that I'd love to see them implement.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Hope Santa has time this summer to cover your wish. 😉

You and me both, friend!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I like your thinking.  My concern (even with what I originally proposed with it being immob + cripple) is balance in competitive modes.  That much immob would quickly become toxic, especially on something like Spellbreaker that has so many bursts.  Imagine FC (with No escape traited) + 2s of  immob from this trait...that's 3s of immob potentially every 8.75s.  And that's just from one burst. Hell, that'd make even Druids jealous (not that I'd mind...stupid tree huggers).  I think, for balance reasons, they would need to treat any sort of trait like this as they did with Cull the Weak and impose a CD per target.  

I do like where you're going with Slow, though.  We have no access to that condition outside of Slow Counter and Aura Slicer, so there's definitely room to add that to Warrior's arsenal more broadly.

I did originally back load the immob remember? I like tiering it rather than just lumping it all in. Keeps some of it out of Spellbreaker's and Berserker's spamming hands and keeps some for core while giving BSW something to work with other than the long stun from UD. Keep Slow on T2, but swap the chill and immob, give the immob a 1s duration.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Maybe a compromise solution might look something like this:

Snaring Blades:
Burst skills inflict immobilize (1s) and Slow (3s).  8s CD per target.

That'd be so strong combined with CtW...A single warrior could seriously hamper an enemy team's ability to fight with all the hard and soft CC and cover condi.  Imagine an Arms/Defense hammer warrior in a teamfight....

See above. I like the idea of putting three soft condis there based on tiers. A Core or BSW could put 6 condis on a batch of targets in one burst, but it keeps Berserker and SpB from becoming oppressive with it.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

You're not wrong.  Could certainly make a lot of sense with Discipline in particular. 

On the other hand, I'd love to see some of the "key functions" of Discipline (esp adrenaline gain, movement speed, immob removal/management) be duplicated in other trait lines in some form or other so that Discipline can maybe, just maybe, stop being so mandatory.   That was part of my idea behind the minor trait in the OP that gives 5 adrenaline when you gain fury; could help make up for losing Discipline's adrenaline on weapon swap.  Similarly, gaining resistance on burst skill use could provide an alternative to the immob removal on Warrior's Sprint, and a trait granting swiftness when you gain Fury could replace the movement speed part of Warrior's Sprint as well.  I'm not married to these particular ideas, btw; just illustrating a general design philosophy that I'd love to see them implement.

They kind of did that with AO though. That with speed run runes along with the copious amount of quickness they've been giving us and you can be pretty speedy without Warrior's Sprint already. It is okay for Discipline to have nice things, but FH is too important and integral to warrior gameplay that it should be baselined. Maybe swiftness on weapon swap should go into it's place.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I did originally back load the immob remember? I like tiering it rather than just lumping it all in. Keeps some of it out of Spellbreaker's and Berserker's spamming hands and keeps some for core while giving BSW something to work with other than the long stun from UD. Keep Slow on T2, but swap the chill and immob, give the immob a 1s duration.

See above. I like the idea of putting three soft condis there based on tiers. A Core or BSW could put 6 condis on a batch of targets in one burst, but it keeps Berserker and SpB from becoming oppressive with it.

I think we have different visions for what bursts could/should be, and that's fine.  There are multiple reasonable approaches to making Warrior better.

Personally, I think the tiered burst system is outdated and doesn't work particularly well in the current state of the game, especially in competitive modes.  I think the recent changes to traits like Berserker's Power/Adrenal healing/Cleansing Ire help with that, although I don't see an easy way for a similar mechanic to be applied to our hypothetical Snaring Blades.  At its crux, the problem is that Warrior bursts (and their related traits) need to be more functional/provide more value at T1.  That's a big reason why GS and Arcing Slice are such staples of competitive warrior gameplay; AS can do big damage and grant a decent amount of Fury even at T1.  When it comes to burst related traits, I think we should be taking our cues from either a tiered approach like BP/AH/CI or a simple "on use" or "on hit" effect like Cull the Weak currently does, even if it requires a CD for balance reasons.

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They kind of did that with AO though. That with speed run runes along with the copious amount of quickness they've been giving us and you can be pretty speedy without Warrior's Sprint already. It is okay for Discipline to have nice things, but FH is too important and integral to warrior gameplay that it should be baselined. Maybe swiftness on weapon swap should go into it's place.

AO is a neat idea but I think suffers from it's placement in the traitline.  MMR is just too valuable in competitive modes, especially because if you're forced to run Discipline as your second traitline, you don't have any other sustain (unless you're running Core War, which has it's own extensive set of limitations).  I don't think I've ever seen it used well, at least not in PvP.

In any event, I think there's room for more swiftness/movement speed improvement on Warrior somewhere, be it in Arms or Discipline or somewhere else.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I think we have different visions for what bursts could/should be, and that's fine.  There are multiple reasonable approaches to making Warrior better.

Personally, I think the tiered burst system is outdated and doesn't work particularly well in the current state of the game, especially in competitive modes.  I think the recent changes to traits like Berserker's Power/Adrenal healing/Cleansing Ire help with that, although I don't see an easy way for a similar mechanic to be applied to our hypothetical Snaring Blades.  At its crux, the problem is that Warrior bursts (and their related traits) need to be more functional/provide more value at T1.  That's a big reason why GS and Arcing Slice are such staples of competitive warrior gameplay; AS can do big damage and grant a decent amount of Fury even at T1.  When it comes to burst related traits, I think we should be taking our cues from either a tiered approach like BP/AH/CI or a simple "on use" or "on hit" effect like Cull the Weak currently does, even if it requires a CD for balance reasons.

Thats fair. I think the tiered approach still has value though as it allows Anet to give Core and BSW access to things that SPB and Berk can't then spam obnoxiously.  There should be a healthy mix of both though. I would push harder for "on use" for the burst traits, but they had a perfect opportunity to normalize one such trait and they chose to turn it completely on hit instead so...

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

AO is a neat idea but I think suffers from it's placement in the traitline.  MMR is just too valuable in competitive modes, especially because if you're forced to run Discipline as your second traitline, you don't have any other sustain (unless you're running Core War, which has it's own extensive set of limitations).  I don't think I've ever seen it used well, at least not in PvP.

In any event, I think there's room for more swiftness/movement speed improvement on Warrior somewhere, be it in Arms or Discipline or somewhere else.

I still think MMR should be rolled into a minor trait. Building Momentum would work. They could move the endurance gain on burst onto the GM slot that MMR leaves behind.

• Swap the places of Building Momentum and Might Makes Right
• Building Momentum: Burst skills now grant 50 endurance when used. You gain 5% increased critical strike chance and 5% increased damage while at full endurance. (Functionally you would gain 50 endurance when striking, but not per target).
• Aggressive Onslaught: In addition to its previous effects this trait now grants 2 might for 5s upon activating. This trait can activate more than once for skills that hit multiple foes.

This gives some might generation to all tiers in Strength, builds in the sustain so that a single trait does not crowd out it's tier, and gives a GM trait that gives a balance of offense and defense. 50 endurance may be too high, but moving it to the GM slot I think that it needs to be higher than the 15 it is now.

[Katary.7096]

18 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thanks for the feedback! I was mostly just trying to put the +180 condition damage that Deep Strikes gives back into Arms somewhere, since my proposed rework replaced deep strikes with sundering burst.

I see. That is indeed quite reasonable as to not give a disadvantage to condition builds which are currently running Arms.

18 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Im not married to the idea, though. As you and Lan point out, maybe improving condition duration would be a better way to go, especially since it could synergize with some of the soft CC/cover condi that warrior applies, even on a power build.

I would guess that I am not as big a fan of power builds with high condition duration as Lan is. But for this trait expertise over condition damage makes a lot of sense. You get Fury when you apply a soft CC to an enemy, might as well get a boost to condition duration while you have Fury, which then improves your soft CCs as well. Though I could see the argument that that is a lot synergy for one trait to have with itself.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

I would guess that I am not as big a fan of power builds with high condition duration as Lan is. But for this trait expertise over condition damage makes a lot of sense. You get Fury when you apply a soft CC to an enemy, might as well get a boost to condition duration while you have Fury, which then improves your soft CCs as well. Though I could see the argument that that is a lot synergy for one trait to have with itself.

If a single trait has too much synergy within itself then break it into multiple traits, but then you run into the problem that you then have to take that other trait.

Breaking the traitlines into three distinct themes within the line means you can mix and match or go all in. Maybe that power build only wants one of those duration increasing traits and wants the other two power related traits. Maybe that power build has enough power from Strength that the condition duration makes more sense.

One side of the support equation I think we all ignore is the debilitating conditions we can put onto targets. Those have mostly been tied to condi builds, but if we give sufficient condition duration increases independent of condition damage, then we could see a rise in builds that offer support by debuffing the enemy as much as they buff the party.

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Those have mostly been tied to condi builds, but if we give sufficient condition duration increases independent of condition damage, then we could see a rise in builds that offer support by debuffing the enemy as much as they buff the party

Been banging that drum for a while now. Primarily +Expertise instead of +CondiDmg really suits the warrior identity, and how much control condis it has. I fully expected them to drop a berserker+expertise set with EoD.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Been banging that drum for a while now. Primarily +Expertise instead of +CondiDmg really suits the warrior identity, and how much control condis it has. I fully expected them to drop a berserker+expertise set with EoD.

 I know right? That kind of gear set would be perfect for rifle for instance.

[Vancho.8750]

One of the big issues I find in Arms for Pvp is that that it doesn't have sustain and I think making the signet passive not disabled when using the active based on a trait can make it good enough and also add the drawback of needing signet.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:20 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That's fair. My POV on that was to add several soft condis to inhibit the target, that would also be nice cover conditions. I felt that back loading them in strength would be better balance, but I see what you mean. How about:

Bursts cripple your target (5s). Apply additional conditions based on adrenaline spent:

T1: Immobilize (2s)
T2: Slow (3s)
T3: Chill* (3s)

*Not 100% on board with chill, but we get vuln and weakness from elsewhere. This could be 3 stacks of poison for 3s though for T3.

I think Strength or Discipline may be a better place for an enhanced swiftness. Warrior's Sprint perhaps?

Gain swiftness (4s) on weapon swap. Swiftness on you is 50% more effective (like the ele trait) and grants increased damage (the current splits). Cleanse immobilize when using a movement skill.

The reason I thought about a swiftness Trait was that I didn't want to just make another "dmg increase Trait". 

While it also needed to be super generic as there are 2 very specific traits to choose otherwise. 

Being faster is always usefull.  But any other more creative approach would do to. 

[Katary.7096]

21 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If a single trait has too much synergy within itself then break it into multiple traits, but then you run into the problem that you then have to take that other trait.

That is certainly an option, but I have to admit that I can't muster any excitement for a specialization where 2 out of the 3 major traits I get to pick give me "Gain Fury whenever you do X" and "+180 Expertise while you have Fury".

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

6 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

One of the big issues I find in Arms for Pvp is that that it doesn't have sustain and I think making the signet passive not disabled when using the active based on a trait can make it good enough and also add the drawback of needing signet.

I agree; Arms needs some sustain options, preferably some built into the minor traits. The proposed trait changes include +180 toughness, high Regen uptime, and on-demand resistance--all without compromising your offense --which I think would be pretty solid. You could run the toughness trait and Dolyak signet and have +360 toughness without having to invest any runes or gear.

I'd love to see healing signet be good again, but I think it's going to take more than having its heal passive be always active. The long cast time and the resistance nerf hit it hard.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Haven't heard much from the PvE gallery. @Jzaku.9765 @anbujackson.9564 et al., any ideas for what you'd like to see for Arms?

[Super Hayes.6890]

On 5/14/2023 at 1:09 AM, eXruina.4956 said:

i love the use of "Bear" in the title. 🐻💕

Seriously, not a single joke about norn warriors in this entire thread... smh

For real though, some of these ideas would bring me back to warrior. It just isn't fun anymore 😕 My main is collecting dust. You folks have put together some really nice ideas. I hope they use them!

[Jzaku.9765]

17 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Haven't heard much from the PvE gallery. @Jzaku.9765 @anbujackson.9564 et al., any ideas for what you'd like to see for Arms?

I appreciate that you still have the energy to make these huge rework suggestions.

I understand where you are going with the overall theme of this rework, but my main criticism is that you've done such a big reimagining of the trait line "Arms", focusing almost entirely on how it is the "Crit Chance" and "Condi" trait line - when you should be expanding on the theme of "Arms" (as in, meaning "Weapons" or "Armaments") to expand on what types of traits can thematically belong in this trait line and giving you more options than what "Crit Chance" and "Condi" give you (read: damage).

An example of this would be [Might Makes Right] which is so good because it's a sustain/defense trait in what would normally be interpreted as a "Power damage" traitline, yet still thematically belongs due to keying off Might generation.

For example, something like:

1. Weapon Versatility - Using a Burst skill applies an additional effect to allies when wielding an off-handed weapon.
   Warhorn: [Regeneration]
   Sword: [Superspeed]
   Mace: [Stability] etc etc
2. Heavy Arms - Using a Burst skill inflicts [Slow] on foes.
3. Draw Arms - Gain [Quickness] and [Swiftness] on weapon swap. Gain [Superspeed] instead when swapping to a ranged weapon. 

As for my feedback about your actual suggestions:

• The Adept traits are unbelievably boring. I would scrap all these and just lower the ICD on [Furious Burst] to ~3s to do what these traits are trying to do. Oh and [Unsuspecting Foe] absolutely needs to stay thematically the same as it is now because it's been a legendary Unsuspecting Meme trait on Warrior for 10 years.
• [Poisoned Blades] - I know this is likely purely for PVP but Poison is very out of theme for Warrior, and the vertical scaling of it makes it look like a condi trait to PVE players, competing directly with [Blademaster]. I would put a defensive/utility trait in this slot.
• [Blademaster] - 2 stacks of Torment at a 50% rate is probably totally busted for PVE. I would just replace this with the effects of the current [Bloodlust] which has the +33% Bleed duration (extremely important) and add 1 stack of Torment at 50% chance when wielding a Sword.
• [Burst Precision] - I agree that this trait needs more but the Resistance Tie-In is extremely weak flavour. I would just make this the "Power DPS trait" of the Grandmaster Tier, scrapping [Furious Strength] which is really boring.
• [Bloodlust] - I'd add "Applying bleed instead grants 2 stacks. Gain (a small amount of) Barrier every 6 stacks." to preserve actually involving bleed into the the trait named after Blood.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Jzaku.9765 thanks for the reply and the feedback.  A few thoughts:

4 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I understand where you are going with the overall theme of this rework, but my main criticism is that you've done such a big reimagining of the trait line "Arms", focusing almost entirely on how it is the "Crit Chance" and "Condi" trait line - when you should be expanding on the theme of "Arms" (as in, meaning "Weapons" or "Armaments") to expand on what types of traits can thematically belong in this trait line and giving you more options than what "Crit Chance" and "Condi" give you (read: damage).

An example of this would be [Might Makes Right] which is so good because it's a sustain/defense trait in what would normally be interpreted as a "Power damage" traitline, yet still thematically belongs due to keying off Might generation.

It's interesting that you cite MMR as a reference, because many of my suggestions were modeled off it.  In fact, my vision of Arms is of a traitline centered on the Fury boon and using that boon to enable different styles of play--including sustain variants, such as Fencer's Defense and Furious Resolve.  The result is something that provides a great deal more versatility and customizability than the current version.

4 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

For example, something like:

1. Weapon Versatility - Using a Burst skill applies an additional effect to allies when wielding an off-handed weapon.
   Warhorn: [Regeneration]
   Sword: [Superspeed]
   Mace: [Stability] etc etc
2. Heavy Arms - Using a Burst skill inflicts [Slow] on foes.
3. Draw Arms - Gain [Quickness] and [Swiftness] on weapon swap. Gain [Superspeed] instead when swapping to a ranged weapon. 

Definitely some neat ideas here.  I could easily see your Weapon Versatility as a replacement for the current Dual Wield trait.  Heavy Arms is remarkably similar to what @Lan Deathrider.5910 suggested in one of his posts, and certainly could be a compelling option.  I do worry that it would probably be too similar to Slow Counter, though; I imagine that the devs might not want to double up on that design space.  Quickness on swap is also a great idea, but probably fits better in Discipline (Make Fast Hands baseline and put quickness on weapon swap in its place?!? A guy can dream, right?).

 

4 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

The Adept traits are unbelievably boring. I would scrap all these and just lower the ICD on [Furious Burst] to ~3s to do what these traits are trying to do.

If by "boring," you mean "the customizable foundation of the entire traitline which provides a means of perma Fury uptime and significant stat bonuses for your preferred style of play," then sure.  I can deal with boring.

Although I think it's worth pointing out that "boring" is an inherently subjective descriptor that bears no relevance on how well a thing will or won't work in the game.  You could argue that Great Fortitude, being a straight stat conversion, is the most boring a trait could possibly be.  Until you see the big fat numbers on your critical hits, anyway.  Then it becomes a lot less "boring."   The role of the traits is to facilitate gameplay, not be "entertaining" in themselves.  The "fun" should come from the gameplay the traits enable.

4 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

[Poisoned Blades] - I know this is likely purely for PVP but Poison is very out of theme for Warrior, and the vertical scaling of it makes it look like a condi trait to PVE players, competing directly with [Blademaster]. I would put a defensive/utility trait in this slot.

That's fair.  I do think condi warrior needs diversity in condi application to keep up with other, better condi specs, and that's what I was going for here.  However, you're right that having it in direct competition with Blademaster isn't ideal design.  A defensive/utility trait would be better for promoting alternative playstyles at any rate.  I agree with you.

4 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

[Blademaster] - 2 stacks of Torment at a 50% rate is probably totally busted for PVE. I would just replace this with the effects of the current [Bloodlust] which has the +33% Bleed duration (extremely important) and add 1 stack of Torment at 50% chance when wielding a Sword.

Clarification: the proposed effect is "50% chance of inflicting torment (1 stack for 3s) on crit; 100% chance on crit (still only 1  stack for 3s)  if wielding a sword."  This could still be extremely powerful; if it proved to be OP, you could simply adjust the rate: e.g., 33/66% chance on crit.

I'm not sure I agree that the +33% bleed duration is that important, as it only affects one condition; the hope should be (IMO) to improve the variety of conditions that Warrior can apply.  Condition duration is still very important, of course, and several posters have suggested that some of the condi dmg buffs in the OP be replaced/augmented with expertise buffs instead, which I think is reasonable.  That way, Arms could provide ways to inflict a variety of conditions while increasing the duration of all of them.  I think that is better design.

 

5 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

[Burst Precision] - I agree that this trait needs more but the Resistance Tie-In is extremely weak flavour.

Burst Precision is primarily a trait for competitive modes, anyway, since most power-oriented PvE builds are designed to be crit-capped.  And in competitive modes, having resistance on burst use--effectively making your burst skills immune to blind and weakness, in addition to a guaranteed crit--is far from weak.  In fact, it is literally anti-weak.  

 

Quote

I would just make this the "Power DPS trait" of the Grandmaster Tier, scrapping [Furious Strength] which is really boring.

Again with that word...
Anyway, the idea is to promote a hybrid playstyle (since might benefits both power and condi, of course) and providing potential synergies with other traitlines.  Lan's suggestion to change the dmg mod to +10% critical dmg when you have might is a great idea.  

I do think this could be a good slot for your proposed Weapon Versatility trait, though.  That's a really neat mechanic and one that could definitely find a home in the traitline.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

An alternative trait idea to replace Poisoned Blades on the Master Tier:

Furious Recovery:
Cleanse one condition and gain Resolution (3s) when you gain Fury (5s CD).

More cleansing is never a bad thing, and the Resolution generation synergizes with Hardened Armor in Defense.  Combined with Fencer's Defense, these traits provide defensive options vs both power and condi dmg.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

44 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

An alternative trait idea to replace Poisoned Blades on the Master Tier:

Furious Recovery:
Cleanse one condition and gain Resolution (3s) when you gain Fury (5s CD).

More cleansing is never a bad thing, and the Resolution generation synergizes with Hardened Armor in Defense.  Combined with Fencer's Defense, these traits provide defensive options vs both power and condi dmg.

I'd say that there is enough cleansing in our repertoire at this point. We may be better off letting Arms be a fully glass cannon line at this point and leave the sustain to the sustain lines. For that to work though Fast Hands needs to be baselined and the CDR from Versatile Power baked into our Bursts. Fast Hands could then be quickness (2s) on swap and Versatile Power could be changed to grant boons on burst based one the equipped weapons i.e. AoE Fury for GS, AoE Barrier for Mace, AoE Protection from Shield, AoE Resistance from Warhorn, etc with the caveat that there is no extra benefit from wielding two of the same weapon.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'd say that there is enough cleansing in our repertoire at this point. We may be better off letting Arms be a fully glass cannon line at this point and leave the sustain to the sustain lines. For that to work though Fast Hands needs to be baselined and the CDR from Versatile Power baked into our Bursts. Fast Hands could then be quickness (2s) on swap and Versatile Power could be changed to grant boons on burst based one the equipped weapons i.e. AoE Fury for GS, AoE Barrier for Mace, AoE Protection from Shield, AoE Resistance from Warhorn, etc with the caveat that there is no extra benefit from wielding two of the same weapon.

I agree with you that we do have lots of cleansing options (although I think Warrior heavily needs cleansing in PvP/WvW, and this helps make things like cleansing ire/mending/shake it off/etc be so mandatory).  Having one more could be over the top, I suppose, but my hope is that it would give enough redundancy so that you could reasonably consider giving up, say, cleansing ire in favor of last stand, or taking Stomp instead of shake it off, etc.

However, if the cleansing was felt to be too much, just let it provide resolution, preferably with a "Resolution reduces condi dmg by 40%" rider.  This would still allow the trait to provide a useful boon that synergizes with Hardened armor without overloading on cleansing.

Alternatively, you could make it a "gain barrier when you gain Fury" mechanic.  Although we already have a number of traits that give barrier on various procs, so this would be pretty redundant.

I disagree with the idea that Arms should be all dmg-oriented.  I think that, realistically, Warrior trait lines need some sustain mechanic in order to be viable, at least in competitive modes.  See: MMR, AH, Vigorous Shouts/MM, etc.  I think it's absolutely fine and desirable for Arms to have excellent dmg-oriented traits and to really facilitate a glass-cannon playstyle, whether that be power or condi.  But it needs to be flexible if it's going to succeed as a viable line in all game modes.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I think the barrier and resolution need to be kept to Defense and Tactics. If Arms had more than just glorified stat buffs it would be useful. It needs to provide more fury, effects on crit, extra damage conditions, and extra non-damaging conditions.

Right now its:

Statbuff, statbuff, weak sauce | statbuff, redundant sauce, statbuff | statbuff, statbuff, weak sauce

And I take that personally.

[Jzaku.9765]

5 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Jzaku.9765 thanks for the reply and the feedback.  A few thoughts:

It's interesting that you cite MMR as a reference, because many of my suggestions were modeled off it.  In fact, my vision of Arms is of a traitline centered on the Fury boon and using that boon to enable different styles of play--including sustain variants, such as Fencer's Defense and Furious Resolve.  The result is something that provides a great deal more versatility and customizability than the current version.

Definitely some neat ideas here.  I could easily see your Weapon Versatility as a replacement for the current Dual Wield trait.  Heavy Arms is remarkably similar to what @Lan Deathrider.5910 suggested in one of his posts, and certainly could be a compelling option.  I do worry that it would probably be too similar to Slow Counter, though; I imagine that the devs might not want to double up on that design space.  Quickness on swap is also a great idea, but probably fits better in Discipline (Make Fast Hands baseline and put quickness on weapon swap in its place?!? A guy can dream, right?).

 

If by "boring," you mean "the customizable foundation of the entire traitline which provides a means of perma Fury uptime and significant stat bonuses for your preferred style of play," then sure.  I can deal with boring.

Although I think it's worth pointing out that "boring" is an inherently subjective descriptor that bears no relevance on how well a thing will or won't work in the game.  You could argue that Great Fortitude, being a straight stat conversion, is the most boring a trait could possibly be.  Until you see the big fat numbers on your critical hits, anyway.  Then it becomes a lot less "boring."   The role of the traits is to facilitate gameplay, not be "entertaining" in themselves.  The "fun" should come from the gameplay the traits enable.

That's fair.  I do think condi warrior needs diversity in condi application to keep up with other, better condi specs, and that's what I was going for here.  However, you're right that having it in direct competition with Blademaster isn't ideal design.  A defensive/utility trait would be better for promoting alternative playstyles at any rate.  I agree with you.

Clarification: the proposed effect is "50% chance of inflicting torment (1 stack for 3s) on crit; 100% chance on crit (still only 1  stack for 3s)  if wielding a sword."  This could still be extremely powerful; if it proved to be OP, you could simply adjust the rate: e.g., 33/66% chance on crit.

I'm not sure I agree that the +33% bleed duration is that important, as it only affects one condition; the hope should be (IMO) to improve the variety of conditions that Warrior can apply.  Condition duration is still very important, of course, and several posters have suggested that some of the condi dmg buffs in the OP be replaced/augmented with expertise buffs instead, which I think is reasonable.  That way, Arms could provide ways to inflict a variety of conditions while increasing the duration of all of them.  I think that is better design.

 

Burst Precision is primarily a trait for competitive modes, anyway, since most power-oriented PvE builds are designed to be crit-capped.  And in competitive modes, having resistance on burst use--effectively making your burst skills immune to blind and weakness, in addition to a guaranteed crit--is far from weak.  In fact, it is literally anti-weak.  

 

Again with that word...
Anyway, the idea is to promote a hybrid playstyle (since might benefits both power and condi, of course) and providing potential synergies with other traitlines.  Lan's suggestion to change the dmg mod to +10% critical dmg when you have might is a great idea.  

I do think this could be a good slot for your proposed Weapon Versatility trait, though.  That's a really neat mechanic and one that could definitely find a home in the traitline.

Your very first minor trait already says "gain Fury when you do X." immediately following that with no choice but to pick "gain Fury when you do A/B/C." is redundant and feels bad. It's also not specified in any of the other supporting Fury traits that this Fury must be sourced from the Warrior so what if you don't actually need Fury? Just having a Herald in your party is not only perma-Fury but it's pulsing every 3 seconds.

Fwiw I feel the same way about Bladesworn's adept tier - "these traits didn't need to exist if you didn't make Flow so hard to get." It's a nothingburger slot because you essentially get the same effect no matter what you choose. You just pick the one that your build naturally does and never think about it again. What am I going to do, not cc in pvp when I pick Unsuspecting Foe? Not auto attack with sword in pve when I pick opportunist?

This is what I mean by "boring trait", something you pick and never think about again. MMR is a good trait design because it turns some effects into a spike heal affecting the buildcraft step, you're constantly thinking about good cleave opportunities while you have it affecting the gameplay step, and you're rewarded vertically with how well you use it.

A trait that says "+180 condi damage" or even "+15% damage" might be good but is something you never think about again. I'd rather all my trait slots be engaging traits like MMR.

Also, just some food for thought - imagine you had a class that for whatever design goal had absolutely 0 traits that said "do x % more damage" and instead had strong utility traits in every slot. In modern gw2 anet isn't going to let this class have 0 viable dps builds so the class has busted damage coeffs to make at least one build do the standard benchmark dps of ~40k, so you have a class that has busted utility while outputting about the same as another class that had to fill every slot with "do more dps". This is obviously a massive exaggeration but it's a very real effect - the less "do more dps" things you have the better off your class actually is.

On a related note, you also need to look at your trait line holistically to avoid the illusion of choice. If I were a pve condi dps build, there's 9 traits but I really have no choice but to pick 1-3-2 on your list. Same with power dps. I know the Berserker line is like this but I'm saying I don't think it's good design either.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

On 5/24/2023 at 8:56 PM, Jzaku.9765 said:

Your very first minor trait already says "gain Fury when you do X." immediately following that with no choice but to pick "gain Fury when you do A/B/C." is redundant and feels bad. It's also not specified in any of the other supporting Fury traits that this Fury must be sourced from the Warrior so what if you don't actually need Fury? Just having a Herald in your party is not only perma-Fury but it's pulsing every 3 seconds.

Fwiw I feel the same way about Bladesworn's adept tier - "these traits didn't need to exist if you didn't make Flow so hard to get." It's a nothingburger slot because you essentially get the same effect no matter what you choose. You just pick the one that your build naturally does and never think about it again. What am I going to do, not cc in pvp when I pick Unsuspecting Foe? Not auto attack with sword in pve when I pick opportunist?

This is what I mean by "boring trait", something you pick and never think about again. MMR is a good trait design because it turns some effects into a spike heal affecting the buildcraft step, you're constantly thinking about good cleave opportunities while you have it affecting the gameplay step, and you're rewarded vertically with how well you use it.

A trait that says "+180 condi damage" or even "+15% damage" might be good but is something you never think about again. I'd rather all my trait slots be engaging traits like MMR.

Also, just some food for thought - imagine you had a class that for whatever design goal had absolutely 0 traits that said "do x % more damage" and instead had strong utility traits in every slot. In modern gw2 anet isn't going to let this class have 0 viable dps builds so the class has busted damage coeffs to make at least one build do the standard benchmark dps of ~40k, so you have a class that has busted utility while outputting about the same as another class that had to fill every slot with "do more dps". This is obviously a massive exaggeration but it's a very real effect - the less "do more dps" things you have the better off your class actually is.

 

I think we have some fundamentally different ideas of what constitutes good balance and design philosophy.  *Shrugs*  Agree to disagree.

Quote

On a related note, you also need to look at your trait line holistically to avoid the illusion of choice. If I were a pve condi dps build, there's 9 traits but I really have no choice but to pick 1-3-2 on your list. Same with power dps. I know the Berserker line is like this but I'm saying I don't think it's good design either.

That's going to happen regardless.  If you're aiming to be "Max DPS," you're going to pick the best-in-slot trait options for that role.  And, it's worth noting, you wouldn't take any of the traits you suggested for the Arms line, either.  

That's more of a symptom of end game PvE, though, rather than a balance or design issue.  Build diversity is mostly a luxury of competitive modes and Open World PvE where you aren't being counted on to fulfill a very specific role for your team like you are in instanced content.

And while there is certainly a case to be made for certain traits that provide group benefits, Warrior already has niches for that in other trait lines (such as Martial Cadence in Tactics) where they are more thematically appropriate.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

If bloodlust stays as the minor gm, make it a guaranteed bleed per crit and add the life leech we discussed on bleed application, rename to bloodthirst. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Actually to for Arms I'd want to see this:

Minor Adept: Fury stays a +30% crit chance modifier 

Minor Master: Fury grants increased outgoing damage and condi damage for 7% each

Minor GM: apply bleed when you crit. Applying bleeding steals health from an enemy (50 health gained, 50 dmg inflicted)

And at least 1 major for strike damage

Adept: Signet Mastery but signers maintain passives and ferocity signet refreshes with applications and is not removed when mounted.

Master: Vulnerability on burst, vulnerability has 33% greater duration and deals more damage (0,5% per stack additional), total of 12.5% dmg increase at max stacks.

GM: increased critical hit chance against vulnerable foes (5%). Burst skills have a 100% crit chance.