Lets Talk about Supports

[Downstate.4697]

Almost every profession has either mechanics, weapons, traits, or skills that promote support playstyles, but there has only consistently been 2 professions with support builds. I wanted to discuss why that is, and what is missing for each profession that would make support a viable choice. This is just my thoughts and is more to invite discussion on the topic than to tell people how it is.

 

First, what makes a good support? To me, a good support needs to do multiple things. First, it needs to be able to provide some type of healing/barrier. Second, its mechanics and/or weapon should have inherent ways to support allies. Guardian and tempest are good examples because virtues and overloads inherently support your team and their weapons also provide some sort of defensive capability either through healing, cc, or reflect. Third, having the ability to respond to changing situations on the fly through skill expression. One of the reasons druid isn't a great support is most of its ability to heal is locked into celestial form. The last reason is that guardian and ele have access to a reliable res utility (I don't want to get into that specifically since I don't think they should be viable choices in pvp).

 

Druid

1. Healing/Barrier

Druid might have the highest healing potential out of any support. They also have an absolute busted elite glyph, but that's about all it has going for it in this department

2. Mechanics/Weapons

Staff is a good weapon for supporting. The other option would probably be some form of sword/warhorn. They also have celestial form which offers great healing capability and condi cleanse for allies.

3. Skill Expression

This is the big issue for druid. The bulk of its support ability is in celestial form and yet its on a 15s cooldown. Blindside explains it better in his video.

 

Warrior

1. Healing/Barrier

It provides decent healing with shouts and barrier through warhorn/banner, but nothing special. I think it could be even better with some trait adjustments that ill explain under mechanics.

2. Mechanics/Weapons

This is how I envision a warrior support build would go. With a  bit different flavor depending on the grandmaster you take in tactics.

• I would swap marching orders and soldiers comfort so soldiers comfort isn't completing with roaring reveille.
• I would have mending might also heal allies.
• I would remove the extra healing power on vigorous shouts, swap it with shrug it off, and slightly increase healing from shrug it off.
• Cleansing ire would cleanse conditions on allies in a radius around you. 

3. Skill Expression

Mostly fine, more interaction between burst skills and support traits would be nice.

 

Scrapper

Not sure what to think about it. On  paper, the wvw build should translate well into pvp. Its unique because it provides superspeed so could fit into certain comps. The only thing I could see is maybe the healing is too inconsistent/low, it doesn't fair well in a power meta, its overshadowed by supports with an instant res utility.

 

Chronomancer

Another potential support option that offers alacrity to the team.

1. Healing/Barrier

it can provide decent healing. Problem is mechanics and skill expression.

2. Mechanics/Weapons

• Restorative Illusions should heal allies around you as well.
• Healing prism should increase outgoing healing instead

3. Skill Expression

The wells need to heal on first pulse.  

 

Scourge

I don't know enough about it. Seem to have issues with mobility and staying alive/supporting fast moving allies.

 

Spectre

This is how I imagine a support spectre would look. It is unique in that it offers stealth to your team with decent revive mechanics.

1. Healing/Barrier

It can provide great healing and barrier output

2. Mechanics/Weapons

Shadow shroud may be a bit low.

3. Skill expression

Locking you out of utilities during the shroud limits interactions between combo fields and blast finishers. Wells feel bad to use as a support option if the effect pulses (and happens at end) due to allies trying to run from the damage. Long cooldowns on deception skills make it hard to support longer fights.

 

Vindicator

1. Healing/Barrier

It offers respectable healing/barrier. 

2. Mechanics/Weapons

Its  weapons outside of staff aren't good for support. Almost wish shield was available for vindi.

3. Skill Expression

• Micro-managing ventari tablet is a big no. Needs a rework.
• Energy management can make it hard to have what you need when you need it.

 

Firebrand

An honorable mention since ANET wants this to be the support for guardian. Biggest issue I see is with skill expression. Managing pages and mantras isnt worth it. It needs a better mantra heal and it kind of sits there and soaks damage, but with a terrible heal. Core is better simply because virtues are straight-forward.

 

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Nah

[jdawgie.1835]

Guardian and Ele can rez downed allies. Its really that simple. No amount of healing or anything else makes up for that. Any support must have the ability to rez if a different support can rez otherwise choosing the proff with out rez is the weaker choice. Whenever I see a support tempest and their not running rez signet it tells me that they dont plan on keeping their eyes out for downed allies to turn the tides in clutch group fights. That rez is literally a game changer and can turn an entire match around. If they say something to the effect of  "i dont need it" then they are communicating they lack fundamental concepts of snowballing, momentum on the map, and key plays in matches. More often than not and especially at high play matches are won or lost by just 1-3 engagements. 

 

TLDR: Support with out rez is pointless. Add that to other classes you want to be viable for support or its pointless. 

[ccccc.4963]

Male norn supp guard afk home, "fight on points!"

[Downstate.4697]

3 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Guardian and Ele can rez downed allies. Its really that simple. No amount of healing or anything else makes up for that. Any support must have the ability to rez if a different support can rez otherwise choosing the proff with out rez is the weaker choice. Whenever I see a support tempest and their not running rez signet it tells me that they dont plan on keeping their eyes out for downed allies to turn the tides in clutch group fights. That rez is literally a game changer and can turn an entire match around. If they say something to the effect of  "i dont need it" then they are communicating they lack fundamental concepts of snowballing, momentum on the map, and key plays in matches. More often than not and especially at high play matches are won or lost by just 1-3 engagements. 

 

TLDR: Support with out rez is pointless. Add that to other classes you want to be viable for support or its pointless. 

Yeah I get it, however, if those utilities are gate keeping other builds from seeing play it should be removed. 

[jdawgie.1835]

2 hours ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Yeah I get it, however, if those utilities are gate keeping other builds from seeing play it should be removed. 

Rez is one of the only real reasons to run support instead of damage. You have to plan to play around the rez. So im all for other supports being viable. Just give them 1 rez and make the cool downs for rez on all professions universal. 

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

8 hours ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Scrapper

Not sure what to think about it. On  paper, the wvw build should translate well into pvp. Its unique because it provides superspeed so could fit into certain comps. The only thing I could see is maybe the healing is too inconsistent/low, it doesn't fair well in a power meta, its overshadowed by supports with an instant res utility.

Support scrapper is actually much better than many might think and has a few things going for it. Obviously it is underpowered, but it really just needs a few tweaks to some mechanics to make it much stronger. And contrary to your statement, it's better vs power, not condis. This is mostly due to its weakness to necro and condi bombs. You don't have any instant mass clease, unless you take Elixer C, which is hard to fit in when Elixer Gun and Elixer B are pretty much mandatory IMO. Also, giving allies superspeed is trash now IMO. Go the barrier traits + rapid regen. Kinetic Accelerators is dog tier now.

 

Some changes to make Support Scrapper more viable(not saying this is all it needs  and these changes are for ranked. I give 0 fks about its mAT viability)

Med Kit

   med blaster - reduce cast to 1s

   Bandage blast - make this skill easier to hit. This has got to be the most annoying ability in the game

Toss Elixer B - make this give stability and resolution 100% of the time with the other 3 boons being random. If either this or Elixer B also got resistance, that would be sick too.

Defense Field - reduce CD

Elixer R - Make this remove all movement imparing conditions or make it stunbreak.

 

   

  

Edited May 19, 2023 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[Downstate.4697]

4 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Rez is one of the only real reasons to run support instead of damage. You have to plan to play around the rez. So im all for other supports being viable. Just give them 1 rez and make the cool downs for rez on all professions universal. 

Illusion of life

signet of undeath

Battle standard

Shallow grave

glyph of the stars (not a instant rez but pretty reliable)

 

The only 2 professions that don’t have anything is engi and rev, so I don’t think slapping a rez utility on them will make them good.

 

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

You're mostly right on the Tactics changes. Soldier's Comfort needs to not have a CD and have tiered effects with heavy emphasis on scaling rather than base healing.

Warrior also, really needs a MH support weapon to pair with warhorn.

Spellbreaker's traits and utilities could be tweaked into becoming decent boon support. Guard Counter and Revenge Counter grant their boons in an AoE around the SpB. Guard Counter now also has Resolution on it. The meditations that give boons could also be changes to grant said boon around the SpB.

[Dr Meta.3158]

24 minutes ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Illusion of life

signet of undeath

Battle standard

Shallow grave

glyph of the stars (not a instant rez but pretty reliable)

 

The only 2 professions that don’t have anything is engi and rev, so I don’t think slapping a rez utility on them will make them good.

 

 

 

Elixir R and function gyro.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[Downstate.4697]

5 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Rez is one of the only real reasons to run support instead of damage. You have to plan to play around the rez. So im all for other supports being viable. Just give them 1 rez and make the cool downs for rez on all professions universal. 

I also would like to argue that if that’s the case, why aren’t non supports running a res utility?

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You're mostly right on the Tactics changes. Soldier's Comfort needs to not have a CD and have tiered effects with heavy emphasis on scaling rather than base healing.

Warrior also, really needs a MH support weapon to pair with warhorn.

Spellbreaker's traits and utilities could be tweaked into becoming decent boon support. Guard Counter and Revenge Counter grant their boons in an AoE around the SpB. Guard Counter now also has Resolution on it. The meditations that give boons could also be changes to grant said boon around the SpB.

Now, that elite specializations are off the time for the time being, Arenanet should give core Warrior access to Sceptre and let it have supportive abilities.

Bonus points if we get to throw it like a Javelin, the animations for that already are in the game. This would fill a bit of the wish for Paragon flavour in the game, who basically were ranged support Warriors (and no, Guardian doesn't even remotely touch that Paragon flavour).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

16 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Now, that elite specializations are off the time for the time being, Arenanet should give core Warrior access to Sceptre and let it have supportive abilities.

Bonus points if we get to throw it like a Javelin, the animations for that already are in the game. This would fill a bit of the wish for Paragon flavour in the game, who basically were ranged support Warriors (and no, Guardian doesn't even remotely touch that Paragon flavour).

Personal preference: MH Pistol. However, if we get throwing spears, I'd rather them bring the actual spear weapons onto land as a MH weapon rather than shoehorn scepter into the role.

[wasss.1208]

17 hours ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Scrapper

Not sure what to think about it. On  paper, the wvw build should translate well into pvp. Its unique because it provides superspeed so could fit into certain comps. The only thing I could see is maybe the healing is too inconsistent/low, it doesn't fair well in a power meta, its overshadowed by supports with an instant res utility.

Scrapper/Engineer doesn't have a pvp support build, because their skills are unreliable to hit, and their traits has low range. In WvW it doesn't matter, because when 30-50 people are running around, you'll hit 5 people, no matter what. In PvE, it doesn't matter, because you are stacking all the time. In PvP, you won't see any professions played as a support, which doesn't have 600 range, on demand support skills, like Shouts on Warrior, Guardian, and Tempest.

[Ragnar.4257]

Something nobody's really talked about is the important difference between PRE-damage mitigation and POST-damage recovery.

The reason something like Druid sucks is because while it has amazing post-damage recovery, it offers very little pre-damage mitigation.

When players die in PvP, it's not typically due to attrition. It's more usually to a sudden spike. In PvP, >>if<< players are getting hit, they die VERY fast. It's no good being able to provide 10k healing over the next 5 seconds, you need to be able to provide relief to your team-mate NOW, not in 5 seconds, NOW. And to be able to provide relief instantly, you really want it to be instant-cast and AoE. If you have to spend time targetting an ability, one which might miss, then it just makes it harder to reliably provide instant relief.

It is also vastly better to prevent damage before it happens, than to take the hits and try and recover it. Even if you can recover it, if your team-mate gets put down to 1k HP, they're going to start poppinig their own defensivev CD's and start running/kiting, killing your momentum. Whereas if they never drop below 50% HP in the first place, then they won't burn CD's and will keep pumping damage.

This is why Tempest with auras/protection and Guard with aegis/stability are always the strongest performing supports. Druid can out-heal them both, but it can't do the pre-damage mitigation. Same with Scrapper, and various others. Druid also can't reliably do its stuff NOW, it is often locked out.

The other major way to prevent damage before it happens is with CC-spam, and this is what can allow Spellbreaker to also have a place.

[Downstate.4697]

5 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Something nobody's really talked about is the important difference between PRE-damage mitigation and POST-damage recovery.

The reason something like Druid sucks is because while it has amazing post-damage recovery, it offers very little pre-damage mitigation.

When players die in PvP, it's not typically due to attrition. It's more usually to a sudden spike. In PvP, >>if<< players are getting hit, they die VERY fast. It's no good being able to provide 10k healing over the next 5 seconds, you need to be able to provide relief to your team-mate NOW, not in 5 seconds, NOW. And to be able to provide relief instantly, you really want it to be instant-cast and AoE. If you have to spend time targetting an ability, one which might miss, then it just makes it harder to reliably provide instant relief.

It is also vastly better to prevent damage before it happens, than to take the hits and try and recover it. Even if you can recover it, if your team-mate gets put down to 1k HP, they're going to start poppinig their own defensivev CD's and start running/kiting, killing your momentum. Whereas if they never drop below 50% HP in the first place, then they won't burn CD's and will keep pumping damage.

This is why Tempest with auras/protection and Guard with aegis/stability are always the strongest performing supports. Druid can out-heal them both, but it can't do the pre-damage mitigation. Same with Scrapper, and various others. Druid also can't reliably do its stuff NOW, it is often locked out.

The other major way to prevent damage before it happens is with CC-spam, and this is what can allow Spellbreaker to also have a place.

This is a pretty good point that I didn’t appropriately communicate or address in my post. Their mechanics are inherently defensive.  

Druid has some cc and decent access to weakness, however, they aren’t great at mitigating damage to the team outside of cleanses and weakness application and a daze hear and there.

Scrapper has superspeed to help with peeling, but unreliable healing to make use of it.

chrono has decent cc but no reliable healing

a lot of supports are closer to viability than we might think 

[shion.2084]

5 hours ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Illusion of life

signet of undeath

Battle standard

Shallow grave

glyph of the stars (not a instant rez but pretty reliable)

 

The only 2 professions that don’t have anything is engi and rev, so I don’t think slapping a rez utility on them will make them good.

 

 

 

Engi have an elixir Rez if I recall

[Myror.7521]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 @Downstate.4697as it stands now No CD on Soldier's Comfort would be absolute broken in Comb with Berserkers Axe burst. I would just reduce the cooldown to 5 seconds this would let it be in Balance even while using no cd Decapitate but still would be good enough in Terms of burst healing (while use that heal on hit Thing in Comb with shout heal) this Comb alone would be an Instant 5k heal burst so Not too Bad at all. Tho mending might healing allies would be also somewhat decent (especialy with Banner of Defence. It could let it doing Like 2k heal per Second or Something Like that..... maybe would end up been too good but you could still Balance it out simply by numbers nerfs)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 @Downstate.4697as it stands now No CD on Soldier's Comfort would be absolute broken in Comb with Berserkers Axe burst. I would just reduce the cooldown to 5 seconds this would let it be in Balance even while using no cd Decapitate but still would be good enough in Terms of burst healing (while use that heal on hit Thing in Comb with shout heal) this Comb alone would be an Instant 5k heal burst so Not too Bad at all. Tho mending might healing allies would be also somewhat decent (especialy with Banner of Defence. It could let it doing Like 2k heal per Second or Something Like that..... maybe would end up been too good but you could still Balance it out simply by numbers nerfs)

Which is why you tier it off of adrenaline spent and give that T1 version low base and low scaling, but T3 a medium base but very high scaling.

[Swagg.9236]

The best support in the game is core healing engie because not only does it not necessarily have a whole bunch of instant, on-demand "get out of jail free" cards, but its healing is both restrained by very tight timing and positioning.  It actually takes half of a brain to heal more than one or two people at once, and often only works with decent communication.  Considering that it also lacks any passive damage negation, countering bursts is also very dependent on good reads and timing.  Most importantly, it generally doesn't retaliate very well, so it really is relegated to a support role instead of just getting free, extra capabilities on top of damage output.

Need to stop comparing raw number and mechanic outputs within the context of fixed or consistent encounters, and instead look for something that actually leverages a powerful gimmick in a fair manner.

[Downstate.4697]

14 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Need to stop comparing raw number and mechanic outputs within the context of fixed or consistent encounters, and instead look for something that actually leverages a powerful gimmick in a fair manner.

Can you help me understand where I compared raw numbers and mechanic outputs in fixed encounters and where I didn’t talk about how certain supports could leverage a unique support option in a fair way?

They way you worded this entire thing makes it sound like support in general is just a gimmick and not fair.

[Swagg.9236]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:23 AM, Downstate.4697 said:

Can you help me understand where I compared raw numbers and mechanic outputs in fixed encounters and where I didn’t talk about how certain supports could leverage a unique support option in a fair way?

They way you worded this entire thing makes it sound like support in general is just a gimmick and not fair.

GW2 support often isn't that fair.  It is either excessively easy to pilot by means of instant/passive effect and damage negation, or it can simultaneously threaten attackers because the "support" aspect of a class ended up getting haphazardly slapped onto a core that already utilizes a series of no-brainer offensive staples.

It's important to note that GW2 was designed in a way that core, 2012-launch Elementalist camping in water attunement was supposed to be the premier support healer option.  The whole game was basically designed around just throwing damage numbers at targets (however unequally based on which class you choose); there wasn't ever really a support niche.  When anet finally, arbitrarily added what players now generally call "support builds," they weren't necessarily "builds" but more like extra health boosters baked into core classes which, by 2015, had all, in some way, received a series of damage and coodown buffs in an attempt to (unsuccessfully) shuffle the PvP deck and also add some extra numbers to classes trying to solo Lupicus which were not Warrior, Guardian, or Elementalist.

To sum it up, healers need to heal teammates.  They shouldn't be excessively healing themselves along with the teammates; they shouldn't be partially invincible on semi-regular, on-demand intervals; they shouldn't deal consistent, threatening damage to any given target that approaches them while healing; they need to be somewhat vulnerable to balance the fact that they, by virtue of their mechanics, REVERSE the effort of every other player on the field.  GW2 generally breaks every rule for healer design.  The only healer in this game that I've played so far which felt fun and fair has been a jank, core engie healer build (which I randomly made) and which I don't generally take into ranked because healers (like most other things in this game) generally create very unfair and binary interactions.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

I suppose I have a much more deeper/fundamental view. 
 

a lot of playing a healer in this game…there’s just not “enough” there to even have a build really. Many weapons don’t even have attacks that can heal people and are just primarily made of 3 utilities that you have to use rather carefully…and the rest is some other crap that you had to bring along because you had no choices.

in other games healers have the tools needed to heal people…you got your auto attack thing that you use all the time, the self heal and the team heal, you got your big bursts, buffs, debuffs…these are all tools that every healer should have but it is hardly ever like this on most of the offmeta healing builds. 
 

Can think about it like this…Druid staff 1 (solar beam)- is not an ally target skill, it’s a enemy target skill. A simple trait change that alter the skill from enemy to ally and a bit of buffing to the numbers and it would making healing on Druid not an excercise in “doing damage for 50 seconds to gain astral force in order to use my healing build for 10 seconds”

Druid 1 is just an obvious example of the design flaws in the game (anets idea of creating unique style of gameplay falling flat on its face)…but it’s all over the place and practically every build suffers from issues like this and in general support is not even worth playing. In Spvp the only support ur doing is being a glorified tank staying alive long enough to use a rez skill…because the numbers for healing are much too low to make any real difference. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Stalima.5490]

It depends on your definition of support really, after all, barrier/regen/protection mechanist is absurdly strong but people don't actually know what it is let alone that it is actually supporting the team.