When is necro going to be good?

[Burnfall.9573]

7 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

This thread is a joke right? Necro competing for the class with all time most meta build options across all game modes. 

Is it a joke that Necromancer Profession has the lowest ratings in the meta than the remaining Professions?

Edited June 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Cuks.8241]

3 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Is it a joke that Necromancer Profession has the lowest ratings in the meta than the remaining Professions?

What rating? Which game mode?

[Burnfall.9573]

13 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

What rating? Which game mode?

WvW

[Jedrik.3109]

6 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

This thread is a joke right? Necro competing for the class with all time most meta build options across all game modes. 

Same. I asked earlier in here "when has it not been meta or extremely serviceable?" Answer: confused emoji and bickering that I said it was an attrition class. I just don't understand the premise of this take that necro is bad. What for speed running instance content? ...and even then a full scourge dps comp did a under 2 hour full clear. I just don't...

 

Whatever.  Bring on the confused emotions and more interesting takes...

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Necro is good in competitive... when it has a dedicated support and a team that can counter pressure. 

Necro is good in competitive... when it's not hard countered by ranged bursts or perma cc.

I could go on. When it comes to necro specs Harbinger is the exception. It's really telling how much of an advantage the other professions have when Harbinger is the most self sufficient necro spec after it received one evade skill, some mobility, and good sustain despite losing all of its active defense.

Multiply that by 10, throw in some stability and you get to what other professions are capable of: back to back invuln frames, long range teleports, invisibility. Practically un-killable when piloted by someone with enough skill.

[Tovera.4039]

10 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

WvW

Weren’t you and your guild quitting?  I’ll help you pack if I can have your stuff. 

[The Boz.2038]

11 hours ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

Same. I asked earlier in here "when has it not been meta or extremely serviceable?" Answer: confused emoji and bickering that I said it was an attrition class. I just don't understand the premise of this take that necro is bad. What for speed running instance content? ...and even then a full scourge dps comp did a under 2 hour full clear. I just don't...

 

Whatever.  Bring on the confused emotions and more interesting takes...

Once again, if we're going to pretend people did not say what they clearly said that refutes your points neatly.

PvE: Necro became kinda good when scourge came out. Necro was instakick before reaper, and very unpopular after. And even then, it took two whole years of buffs to make scourge actually good, and then two more years to get reaper to where he is now.

PvP: Necro is meta because of boon corrupts. It excels in no other task.

WvW: Necro was always a solid pick because of boon corrupts, and because spinal can sometimes hit like a truck. Rez-botting is also valued.

Hey, guess what they about to nerf heavily!

[Jedrik.3109]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Once again, if we're going to pretend people did not say what they clearly said that refutes your points neatly.

PvE: Necro became kinda good when scourge came out. Necro was instakick before reaper, and very unpopular after. And even then, it took two whole years of buffs to make scourge actually good, and then two more years to get reaper to where he is now.

PvP: Necro is meta because of boon corrupts. It excels in no other task.

WvW: Necro was always a solid pick because of boon corrupts, and because spinal can sometimes hit like a truck. Rez-botting is also valued.

Hey, guess what they about to nerf heavily!

If this is truly the take of the community then I don't know what I can say. I disagree on every point you have made with the exception of the incoming nerf. But I don't know what I'm talking about obviously. You win I guess? 

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Necro is good in competitive... when it has a dedicated support and a team that can counter pressure. 

Necro is good in competitive... when it's not hard countered by ranged bursts or perma cc.

So, it's good when it's not hard countered and has support and bad when it the opposite. That's pretty typical of anything that is reasonably balanced to begin with so why does this specifically make Necro bad?

You need to recognize that these typical scenarios do not result in a class being bad in competitive play. If anything, if a class can counter these things or doesn't do better when teamed, that's more an indication that class needs a significant nerf. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Zex Anthon.8673]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So, it's good when it's not hard countered and has support and bad when it the opposite. That's pretty typical of anything that is reasonably balanced to begin with so why does this specifically make Necro bad?

You need to recognize that these typical scenarios do not result in a class being bad in competitive play. If anything, if a class can counter these things or doesn't do better when teamed, that's more an indication that class needs a significant nerf. 

Necro is the only class thats entirely reliant on supports for teamfights. There's a reason you focus it down first.

Classes are supposed to have counters. Thats part of good balance. But when a class has so many counters that it cannot go toe to toe with any of the other professions in high level play. That's unbalanced and indicates something needs to change.

If we look at all of the 9 professions, necro is countered by almost all by some form of superior mobility, ranged burst, or cc locking. On paper necro should counter ele and gaurdian as these are boon reliant classes. But in practice, necros boon corruption has been nerfed so hard it cannot keep up with the level of boon spam. And, both of them can utilize their superior active defense and sustain to beat the necro through attrition.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Necro is the only class thats entirely reliant on supports for teamfights. There's a reason you focus it down first.

Classes are supposed to have counters. Thats part of good balance. But when a class has so many counters that it cannot go toe to toe with any of the other professions in high level play. That's unbalanced and indicates something needs to change.

If we look at all of the 9 professions, necro is countered by almost all by some form of superior mobility, ranged burst, or cc locking. On paper necro should counter ele and gaurdian as these are boon reliant classes. But in practice, necros boon corruption has been nerfed so hard it cannot keep up with the level of boon spam. And, both of them can utilize their superior active defense and sustain to beat the necro through attrition.

Hold on. This again ignores the fact that people use Necro successfully for some aspects of competitive play. I mean, you are going to tell me Necro is bad and ALSO tell me people focus necros in teams first. Something about that just doesn't make much sense does it. If necro is so trash ... no good player would focus it at all because having a necro would be of no consequence to a team or its opponents if what you say is true. In otherwords, the general statements about how bad necro is just some sort of confirmation bias, which is easily crushed by actual objective assessments and data about necro usage. Probably exactly the kind of data Anet is using to make the changes we see. 

I'm going to guess that based on some of the nerfs necro have been getting over the last few years on the competitive side, the picture you paint about necro capabilities isn't very accurate. It's simply nonsensical for someone to state that an expected outcome of a standard competitive scenario is proof that any particular class is 'bad'. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Zex Anthon.8673]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on. This again ignores the fact that people use Necro successfully for some aspects of competitive play. I mean, you are going to tell me Necro is bad and ALSO tell me people focus necros in teams first. Something about that just doesn't make much sense does it. If necro is so trash ... no good player would focus it at all because having a necro would be of no consequence to a team or it's opponents if what you say is true. In otherwords, the general statements about how bad necro is just some sort of confirmation bias, which is more easily crushed by actual objective assessments and data about necro usage. Probably exactly the kind of data Anet is using to make the changes we see. 

I'm going to guess that based on some of the nerfs necro have been getting over the last few years on the competitive side, the picture you paint about necro capabilities isn't very accurate. 

You realize a class can still do damage despite not having the tools to keep itself alive. It's almost as if you let a class free cast it can have impact on the teamfight. Wow! What a concept! Now if you try to focus a free-casting ele you're gonna be met with 20s of chained evades, blocks, and invulns. So your options are continue wasting time against the ele, or focus the slowass necro with no stability.

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

You realize a class can still do damage despite not having the tools to keep itself alive. It's almost as if you let a class free cast it can have impact on the teamfight. Wow! What a concept! Now if you try to focus a free-casting ele you're gonna be met with 20s of chained evades, blocks, and invulns. So your options are continue wasting time against the ele, or focus the slowass necro with no stability.

Sure I realize that (which means if a necro can do that effectively, it's not as bad as you want to make it sound). I also see it has nothing to do with the criticism I have with your post. Again, you can't sit there and tell me people are focusing necros in teams first because they are bad in competitive game modes. OBviously their is something about necros that make them a threat to be primary targets, which means they aren't 'bad'. You also can't conclude that necro is bad because of an expected outcome from a standard competitive encounter that would affect other classes in similar ways. That would mean ALL classes affected by these expected outcomes in these standard encounters ... are also 'bad'. 

Those things don't make sense. These statements lack objectivity and are exaggerations.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Zex Anthon.8673]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure I realize that (which means if a necro can do that effectively, it's not as bad as you want to make it sound). I also see it has nothing to do with the criticism I have with your post. Again, you can't sit there and tell me people are focusing necros in teams first because they are bad in competitive game modes. OBviously their is something about necros that make them a threat to be primary targets, which means they aren't 'bad'. You also can't conclude that necro is bad because of an expected outcome from a standard competitive encounter that would affect other classes in similar ways. That would mean ALL classes affected by these expected outcomes in these standard encounters ... are also 'bad'. 

Those things don't make sense. These statements lack objectivity and are exaggerations.

This is such a bizarre take. By your logic a class could have zero defense and would not be considered bad because people would target them first.

[Nimon.7840]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure I realize that (which means if a necro can do that effectively, it's not as bad as you want to make it sound). I also see it has nothing to do with the criticism I have with your post. Again, you can't sit there and tell me people are focusing necros in teams first because they are bad in competitive game modes. OBviously their is something about necros that make them a threat to be primary targets, which means they aren't 'bad'. You also can't conclude that necro is bad because of an expected outcome from a standard competitive encounter that would affect other classes in similar ways. That would mean ALL classes affected by these expected outcomes in these standard encounters ... are also 'bad'. 

Those things don't make sense. These statements lack objectivity and are exaggerations.

I kinda have to butt in here. I didn't follow the whole conversation. 

But:

If Necro would be bad, why would you bother playing it in team comps?

The reason why Necros get focused in team oriented competitive is because

a) they most of the times are one of the biggest threats. Not (always) dmg wise, but you want to remove the ability of the enemy to get rid of your groups boons.

b) Necro in team oriented competitive often doesn't really play any defenses, or can't really afford to run defenses because you want either the dmg or the boon removes. That makes them an easy target.

In wvw: 

How do you kill an enemy group the easiest? a) by killing their stability sources -> the guards.

b) by making their stability/boon sources "waste" their boons

c) by killing their ability to remove your sustain via boons. So they can't kill you anymore

That's why Necro gets focused, not because it's bad.

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

20 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Once again, if we're going to pretend people did not say what they clearly said that refutes your points neatly.

PvE: Necro became kinda good when scourge came out. Necro was instakick before reaper, and very unpopular after. And even then, it took two whole years of buffs to make scourge actually good, and then two more years to get reaper to where he is now.

PvP: Necro is meta because of boon corrupts. It excels in no other task.

WvW: Necro was always a solid pick because of boon corrupts, and because spinal can sometimes hit like a truck. Rez-botting is also valued.

Hey, guess what they about to nerf heavily!

so much truth in this post!

 

in pvp & wvw necro is a staple because of it's aoe booncorrupts (and maybe aoe weakness) combined with solid aoe damage. in about any other aspect than boonhate (survivability, aoe-damage, mobility, ...) there are much better alternarives. NECRO IS SUPBAR TO BAD IN ALL ASPECTS BESIDES IT'S DEBILITATING AOE-PRESSURE. but because supports can cover it's weaknesses necro is viable (and destructive) in teamfights. it has been like this for years. 

but what if you take this debilitating aspect away? ...

 

lets see what the patch does (my opinion)

currently in pvp, necro (procreaper) is barely good enough to hang onto it's "designed" pvp role in teamfight comps. the incoming nerfs to Weakening Shroud, Spiteful Spirit and Dagger 5 all reduce it's boon corruption output. I doubt it will be worth a pick in teamcomps anymore. outside a teamcomp, harbinger is somewhat viable while the other specs are C-tier at best. 

wvw-zerg they said they want to shake up the meta and scourge is clearly the target that's gonna get eliminated. it has been meta for years. the incoming nerfs to it's boon-hate output definitely have the potential to knock it out of there. I don't think that reaper is good enough to be a meta-pick, it will be viable though.

wvw-roaming: like in pvp, harbinger is the only necro spec that can somewhat look after it's own. it works well with celestial so it will still be a solid pick there. 

in pve currently it looks brighter than ever. post patch without scourge but having mutliple viable specs is a something. 

 

fun fact: in the worst case, we are looking at a patch with potentially no necros in teamfights, roaming harbingers as only viably spec in pvp & wvw and necros being a good pick in pve. this is 100% the opposite of what the meta has been for years. just wanted to point that out 🙂

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

16 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

I kinda have to butt in here. I didn't follow the whole conversation. 

But:

If Necro would be bad, why would you bother playing it in team comps?

The reason why Necros get focused in team oriented competitive is because

a) they most of the times are one of the biggest threats. Not (always) dmg wise, but you want to remove the ability of the enemy to get rid of your groups boons.

b) Necro in team oriented competitive often doesn't really play any defenses, or can't really afford to run defenses because you want either the dmg or the boon removes. That makes them an easy target.

In wvw: 

How do you kill an enemy group the easiest? a) by killing their stability sources -> the guards.

b) by making their stability/boon sources "waste" their boons

c) by killing their ability to remove your sustain via boons. So they can't kill you anymore

That's why Necro gets focused, not because it's bad.

necro gets focused in pvp because:

-it's debilitating aoe pressure is impactful

-it CANNOT slot any defenses (doesn't have them) so it's an easy first target

just think about why all necros slot worm&spectral walk while skipping a lot of very powerful utilities. they cannot deal with close range pressure outside of shroud so they need to port out immediatly. worm is the worst teleport in the game btw..

[Axl.8924]

8 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Necro is the only class thats entirely reliant on supports for teamfights. There's a reason you focus it down first.

Classes are supposed to have counters. Thats part of good balance. But when a class has so many counters that it cannot go toe to toe with any of the other professions in high level play. That's unbalanced and indicates something needs to change.

If we look at all of the 9 professions, necro is countered by almost all by some form of superior mobility, ranged burst, or cc locking. On paper necro should counter ele and gaurdian as these are boon reliant classes. But in practice, necros boon corruption has been nerfed so hard it cannot keep up with the level of boon spam. And, both of them can utilize their superior active defense and sustain to beat the necro through attrition.

What about warr? didn't necros used to hard counter warrs with some boons they had?

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

double post

Edited June 22, 2023 by DEATHsCLAW.1978

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

2 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

What about warr? didn't necros used to hard counter warrs with some boons they had?

as far as I know necros counter support specs, especially eles & guards.

as for pvp in 1v1 the last time I remember necro countered a somewhat decent duelist it was a dd-core ele as a core celestrial signet necro. might be wrong though. 

in a 1v1 usually warriors will eat necro alive in pvp

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

What about warr? didn't necros used to hard counter warrs with some boons they had?

Yes. Necro was a hard counter to Warrior.

In Guild Wars 1.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

This is such a bizarre take. By your logic a class could have zero defense and would not be considered bad because people would target them first.

No, that's you're take and your logic. I didn't say ANYTHING about having zero defense. 

The reality is that necro isn't bad because it is a threat to teams, even good ones, a significant one ... and if that's balanced by 'mobility' or 'sustain' deficiencies, that's probably and reasonably intended. The fact is that you are trying to justify removing deficiencies necro has just because you don't like them, not because it makes the class bad. 

But ... if you don't like those deficiencies or can't handle them, well, you have choice. Again, sounds to me like you just make bad choices for yourself. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The reality is that necro isn't bad because it is a threat to teams, even good ones, a significant one ... and if that's balanced by 'mobility' or 'sustain' deficiencies, that's probably and reasonably intended. The fact is that you are trying to justify removing deficiencies necro has just because you don't like them, not because it makes the class bad. 

so if we think your approach trough, significant nerfs to "being a threat to other teams" should be compensated with buffs to mobility or sustain, right? 

a big reason why there is such a uproar in the necro community is not necessarily just because the one thing they can do is getting butchered, it's also because there are no compensation-buffs coming along..

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, DEATHsCLAW.1978 said:

so if we think your approach trough, significant nerfs to "being a threat to other teams" should be compensated with buffs to mobility or sustain, right? 

a big reason why there is such a uproar in the necro community is not necessarily just because the one thing they can do is getting butchered, it's also because there are no compensation-buffs coming along..

No,  that's not my 'approach'. I'm not suggesting Anet treat balancing like a zero-sum game. When something is nerfed, that should not lead someone to conclude the nerf should be compensated with a buff somewhere else. It's clear that when Anet balances things, it's because they don't work the way they want or perform at the level they expect. 

I'm being pretty clear here. Deficiencies are not necessarily problems that need to be addressed and that's reasonable since we know Anet also intends for deficiencies to exist. If people want necro to not be 'bad', then they need to stop ignoring where where necro is good to understand its role in competitive game modes. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mirage.8046]

lol ok if you're expecting any radical change to necromancer as a whole, don't. very rarely will anet rework an entire class's weapon or skills. (how long did it take specter's scepter to spread lesser effects around allies? ranger's sword skills being redesigned throughout the last few years.) 

for pve, reaper and harbinger should be fine. scourge is gonna likely die with the upcoming nerfs to shade durations.
for wvw, necro isn't going anywhere but it will feel weakened with no more boon corruption. I've had a lot of fun and success with harbinger in roaming. it takes care of itself. 

either it's time to stop playing necromancer and try another class, or don't bring it into scenarios where you'll be picked off easily.