Bladesworn - Shield Master trait

[Dahkeus.8243]

54 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

???

Is this not what you do? ^

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Bladesworn_-_Defense_Bladesworn

“All variants have the ability to take 1v1s and contribute to teamfights, but the default version presented here is designed to be a duelist.”

 

 

[Dahkeus.8243]

25 minutes ago, EphemeralWallaby.7643 said:

The wiki has it flagged as an anomaly in the the section on SM, and honestly I would expect one reflect to expend aegis, as it gets expended off a single successful block.

Thing is, I'm okay with the anomaly... heck, I'll probably be testing it this weekend (thanks OP for bringing it to my attention by posting your concerns in the Warrior forums).  I think there should be hard counters to ranged DPS/burst builds... as I think there should be counters to most builds... and as people have already pointed out, there are plenty of counters to this.

~EpWa

It makes the biggest difference for roaming.  Vallun had a good vid on it’s use there:

https://youtu.be/fTw9IZL5qlg

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This is my sentiment, more or less.

Yeah. I think some people need to take a step back and look where counter play exists and where it doesn't. Don't go calling for nerfs where counter play exists already people... But feel free to focus where counter play doesn't exist. I'll be there with you all pointing it out.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Bladesworn_-_Defense_Bladesworn

“All variants have the ability to take 1v1s and contribute to teamfights, but the default version presented here is designed to be a duelist.”

 

 

Okay. "Duelist" then. I use them interchangeably because what makes an effective bunker can also make an effective duelist, but semantics adjusted. What I mentioned on Page 2 stands, however.

Quote

Duelist is a conquest role. This doesnt make the argument less significant. 

Still have sustain problems to address. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dahkeus.8243]

33 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Okay. "Duelist" then. I use them interchangeably because what makes an effective bunker can also make an effective duelist, but semantics adjusted. What I mentioned on Page 2 stands, however.

Still have sustain problems to address. 

If you’re not able to tell the difference between a duelist and a bunker, you don’t bring much credibility to the table for any sort of argument about things being imbalanced.  I don’t mean to be rude in saying this, but I do aim to be blunt with sincerity.

 

I recommend taking more time to understand the game before leveraging blame at imbalance for your difficulty in competitive modes.

 

https://guildjen.com/what-is-rotation-gw2-pvp/

Edited June 27, 2023 by Dahkeus.8243

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

If you’re not able to tell the difference between a duelist and a bunker, you don’t bring much credibility to the table for any sort of argument about things being imbalanced.  I don’t mean to be rude in saying this, but I do aim to be blunt with sincerity.

 

I recommend taking more time to understand the game before leveraging blame at imbalance for your difficulty in competitive modes.

 

https://guildjen.com/what-is-rotation-gw2-pvp/

 

I love it here. Specificity in calling it a duelist won't justify the sustain issues it has found itself repeating. Or is your solution "Just rotate 2v1 into it" as well, like every other player trying to justify a bunker build has tried to date? 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dahkeus.8243]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

I love it here. Specificity in calling it a duelist won't justify the sustain issues it has found itself repeating. Or is your solution "Just rotate 2v1 into it" as well, like every other player trying to justify a bunker build has tried to date? 

It sounds like your argument is not really against Bladesworn, which is far from the best or event "bunkeriest" build out there.  Your argument is against the design of PvP in it's entirety.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

It sounds like your argument is not really against Bladesworn, which is far from the best or event "bunkeriest" build out there.  Your argument is against the design of PvP in it's entirety.

You're about 20% right. 

I don't have an issue with bladesworn at its core, in the way you'd expect. 

I just don't like builds that are designed to win engagements 1v1 through outhealing/outmitigating incoming damage, and that only have to move when double teamed. 

Sure, there are worse offenders, and I dislike them too.

metas grind to a halt because people repeatedly keep justifying 2v1 as the go to strategy for builds that are designed to force it, when incorporation of those builds have constantly led to the same types of problems.

There's a mountain of examples from the first E-sports tournament Anet hosted onward that shows what happens to the game health when players can set up shop on a node until outnumbered.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[The Game Slayer.7632]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:37 AM, pninak.1069 said:

so the trait is actually of use. expected it to work on blocks only and not aegis, because aegis is based on a boon and not a skill. but if it applies to aegis you still have the same rules for all other aegis. then it is a cry about nothing since you just need to hit with aoe or melee just once and the protection is gone. tbh I find it a nice way to force someone to a samurai showdown. only really lackluster spec against it would be lb ranger and that still has acess to unblockable and barrage.

Same logic can be used for other exploits, such as thieves using sword 2 to exploit themselves into SWT on borderlands.

 

"All you need is a soulbeast or dragonhunter to kill the thief, doesnt seem like a problem"

 

just some bad logic...

[The Game Slayer.7632]

It does very much seem that Aegis reflecting an unlimited amount of projectiles is a complete oversight.

 

Just like when eles could stow lightning dagger auto attack and get 2-3x more damage... I will play the game of guessing how long it will be before it's patched.. Maybe 1 more year from now?

[pninak.1069]

lol you know that these exploits still exist right? you still get more dmg by canceling some autoattacks early. But anet has made no attempt to make them unable to be canceled. and I highly doubt they would invest time in a  class trait that is hardly used. I mean your argument with unlimited projectiles counts pretty much for every other profession's projectile hate.

guardian has wall fo reflection, engi also, mesmer has reflection after dodge(evasive mirror) with hardly an internal cooldown meanwhile core warrior has hardly access to aegis and unlike the other buffs from the other classes it can be countered way easier. ele got magnetic aura and also has multiple points where it can have access to it.

[The Game Slayer.7632]

1 hour ago, pninak.1069 said:

lol you know that these exploits still exist right? you still get more dmg by canceling some autoattacks early. But anet has made no attempt to make them unable to be canceled. and I highly doubt they would invest time in a  class trait that is hardly used. I mean your argument with unlimited projectiles counts pretty much for every other profession's projectile hate.

guardian has wall fo reflection, engi also, mesmer has reflection after dodge(evasive mirror) with hardly an internal cooldown meanwhile core warrior has hardly access to aegis and unlike the other buffs from the other classes it can be countered way easier. ele got magnetic aura and also has multiple points where it can have access to it.

Yea but you gotta admit the point of aegis is to block a single attack, right? Like.. you have to agree on that in principle.. if there was some weird interaction where blind stopped ALL attacks from going through, that would be pretty game breaking. 

[pninak.1069]

think you are exaggerating. other professions also have game breaking stuff and nobody seems to mind.

 

[The Game Slayer.7632]

39 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

think you are exaggerating. other professions also have game breaking stuff and nobody seems to mind.

 

Hardly. Your logic is awful.

[Leo G.4501]

9 hours ago, The Game Slayer.7632 said:

Same logic can be used for other exploits, such as thieves using sword 2 to exploit themselves into SWT on borderlands.

 

"All you need is a soulbeast or dragonhunter to kill the thief, doesnt seem like a problem"

 

just some bad logic...

That's like saying only 2 specs have access to AoE or melee. Get outta here with that mess.

[Leo G.4501]

9 hours ago, The Game Slayer.7632 said:

It does very much seem that Aegis reflecting an unlimited amount of projectiles is a complete oversight.

 

Just like when eles could stow lightning dagger auto attack and get 2-3x more damage... I will play the game of guessing how long it will be before it's patched.. Maybe 1 more year from now?

One could assume that, but it's such a simple interaction. It'd be like giving access to Stability on movement skills. It's not hard to isolate which skills are labeled as movement on Warrior same as which skills grant block or aegis for Warrior.  Unless you can prove it is an oversight by the devs, it's just too simple.  It'd be easier to prove it was not fully balanced around (i.e. the upkeep on block) than it is is to prove it just never crossed the devs minds.

[Leo G.4501]

4 hours ago, The Game Slayer.7632 said:

Yea but you gotta admit the point of aegis is to block a single attack, right? Like.. you have to agree on that in principle.. if there was some weird interaction where blind stopped ALL attacks from going through, that would be pretty game breaking. 

Is there a trait that makes all blind a player cast disrupt the effect completely? If there were, I'd say it'd be game breaking if they had unlimited access to blind.

Also, the blocks on warrior weapons are only meant to block a single attack then retaliate with a counter, but Shield master has given access to unlimited projectile block on said weapon skills since the trait was created BEFORE elite specs were introduced. So no, you're not right...or either we've been wrong for longer than the trait existed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, The Game Slayer.7632 said:

Yea but you gotta admit the point of aegis is to block a single attack, right? Like.. you have to agree on that in principle.. if there was some weird interaction where blind stopped ALL attacks from going through, that would be pretty game breaking. 

This interaction has existed for a long time, but it predates warrior gaining access to Aegis. In this case, use a non-projectile attack and pop the aegis. There are counters to it, use them.

[Leo G.4501]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume the dev's mindset with regards to aegis and this trait:

They knew the limits of aegis (usually only granted by 1 other profession reliably) + the fact it only blocks once. They aren't completely braindead and know how easy it is to lose aegis in PvP/WvW and how useless it can be in PvE. They gave aegis to Bladesworn for this reason, because limiting your offense or support with the defense traitline can directly affect your dps and effectiveness in WvW (and the spec wasn't expected to be a show stopper in PvP with the DT nerfs). If anything, they anticipated the limitations of DT to be too steep in competitive and expected players to use this trait to compensate only to find out it wasn't enough so altered the other sustain the spec had to 'balance' it a bit better (then they took out Daring Dragon lol).

Just saying, I don't think this is the major hill to attack.  

[Aaron.1294]

@Leo G.4501Which is a mistake because it creates toxic class. Simple as that. Aegis is very problematic and should be replaced with diff mitigation boons/evades. I mean triggerguard would be much better if it was reactive evade rather than spammable aegis and it would help DT in being more offensive.

[Leo G.4501]

8 hours ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Leo G.4501Which is a mistake because it creates toxic class. Simple as that. Aegis is very problematic and should be replaced with diff mitigation boons/evades. I mean triggerguard would be much better if it was reactive evade rather than spammable aegis and it would help DT in being more offensive.

Eh, you can't bypass evade with something like unblockable. You're just trading one kind of synergy for a more powerful effect and masking it as less toxic. Pick your poison: projectile hate for a melee class or uninterruptible DT. I'm sure plenty of players would love not to need stability for DT.

[TiedHam.4923]

@Zebulon.1850

At the risk of getting this post more upvotes and attention than it deserves: Are you a GUARDIAN MAIN seriously complaining about how Warrior has like 1 thing on here!? Like with a straight face!?!? Do you have any idea how CRACKED Guardian is rn?? Let alone Willbender and FB????

The people who come to a specific class's sub-forum to complain about how 1 thing their build can't kill (in a time when  everything is nuts OP) baffle me. 

---

At this point that's an accepted "feature" of [Shield Master] at this point. It causes normally terrible skills like the mace block and the off-sword block to reflect projectiles (provided you're not in melee range for the counter attack.) Meanwhile it DOESN'T work with things that SHOULD (mechanically) reflect projectiles like Flaming Flurry, and Electric Fence.

In order for them to nerf [Shield Master] they'd actually have to update or fix the existing Warrior block weapon skills. Which ANet is allergic to doing. Same thing with [Unshakable Mountain]. Warrior has literally 0 Range Pressure. (Rifle sucks, Longbow is considered melee by Cal, and Gunsaber skills are all bugged.) Even the Dragon Triggers either do 0 damage or bug out half the time. [Shield Master] is the one thing keeping this melee class that ANet long forgot in viability, and gives it enough of a window to sometimes get into melee range to actually fight before it gets nuked/imobed/cc'd to death.

The GS 4 has a 20s icd. If your build/class is struggling against it that's on you. Because in order to actually fix* SM and UM ANet would have to actually fix Bladesworn. Which having just having sacrificed it's stunbreak to give it a better PvE rotation, given it GS projectiles' that all go different ranges, do 0 damage, and bug out or miss half the time, taken the one fun' "PvP" trait that some people were actually enjoying (Daring Dragon) away in service of giving it alacrity in PvE instead of putting it literally anywhere else, and giving it an unswappable 2H "weapon kit" that basically band-aids 1/2 of the "All of Warrior Weapon Skill Suck" problem (as well as giving it a 2H melee staff) instead of a 1H mid-range weapon or a 2H mid-range weapon, or literally anything else, they've pretty much admitted they're not going to do.

Your class is getting 2 1H pistols we can combo, routine skill updates (including animations that didn't need to exist on the signet,) and actual development $ behind it. We're getting f*cked again. If you can't find a way to beat 1 build, I'm sorry. Especially something that takes advantage of a "bug" that's been accepted by the Dev's and been in since day 1. Nothing is good against everything.

---

But no, you're right. Nerf Warrior again please. Shield Master should just do literally nothing ANet, along with the other 26 absolutely USELESS traits and weapon skills we have.

[Widebody.5071]

The BS is deep with the warrior detractors, it must be bad to be so helpless to the point where you must make up crap in order to have an advantage.

This is like being on one of those political sites right, with all the moaning and groaning about what others have or are doing.

[Dirame.8521]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:53 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You're about 20% right. 

I don't have an issue with bladesworn at its core, in the way you'd expect. 

I just don't like builds that are designed to win engagements 1v1 through outhealing/outmitigating incoming damage, and that only have to move when double teamed. 

Sure, there are worse offenders, and I dislike them too.

metas grind to a halt because people repeatedly keep justifying 2v1 as the go to strategy for builds that are designed to force it, when incorporation of those builds have constantly led to the same types of problems.

There's a mountain of examples from the first E-sports tournament Anet hosted onward that shows what happens to the game health when players can set up shop on a node until outnumbered.

 

Isn't that the name of the game? Win the 1v1 or stall it? For me, this is a non-issue. 

[Lucentfir.7430]

The easy fix here if aegis reflecting is really that big of an issue, is to re-tooltip and adjust Shield Master to only affect weapon ability blocks, instead of trying to gut the old interaction with offhand sword block and mace block as collateral.