Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[Geralt.7519]

9 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

It could be that relics do not work like runes. If they're freely swappable account-wide unlocks, there would be no need for a legendary relic.

Possible but I truly hope not, because if that's the case, it means the gear grind will never end, with new relics introduced in new content/xpacs, reason why we have legendaries.

[JeffJeth.9518]

16 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hello everyone, we have been following this conversation and continuing to read your feedback since my last post, and I'm here to give you another quick update. Like other major elements of the expansion, we’re planning on providing more information on relics before launch. For relics specifically, we’re working to get that blog ready for publish on July 18—and because I know you’re wondering, that timeline is so we can write it, review it for accuracy, edit it, and translate it into all supported languages.

We know that the legendary rune compensation is of great interest to you, and we'll be sharing more of our plans about that in the blog post. While that's still coming, I want to clarify a bit about my note on compensation. This will not be an unrelated item; it’s going to be part of the relics system. We’ll have more details in that upcoming blog post.

Finally, I want to thank you all for continuing to have this conversation and share your feedback with us. It’s been helpful and we all appreciate it.

I'm wondering what you expected when you decided to move the goal posts. Giving us something new is fine; taking away something we worked for is entirely not. This change essentially lowers the quality of life for people who went to the trouble of getting a full set of legendary runes. We'll go from being able to change our build with a few clicks to having to carry around extra relics just in case. How is that different from carrying around extra sets of runes? Giving us a relic or two to "compensate" is no compensation at all if it does not in fact return us to the former functionality.

Bad move, Anet. Bad move.

[Mike.7983]

2 hours ago, Anri.6734 said:

Like many others here have said, I primarily crafted the full set of legendary runes because of the 6th effect. If there's any loss of functionality, I'm out. 

Won't quit over this, but will def be angry and less likely to spend gems on this game if we get the screw over.  Having full runes do not expect to have to fork out more gold for something already finished.

[Giovanni.7051]

I'm sure there's no easy answer to this one, but if whatever we get is diminished if you compensate with some clovers and gifts of x; I'd be fine more or less.

[Brandash.4956]

The new Runes + Relics are a way better system then the old Runes. Out of the 99 existing Runes, ~69 have a unique stat distribution when you simply ignore the 6th bonus, still more then enough options to warrant a Legendary, with much more flexibility and potential for unused Runes to shine because previously their set bonus wasn't as powerful as the meta alternative. Now you can for example keep your Scholar-Buff but switch to Runes of the Pack and trade a bit Ferocity for 15% Boon Duration on a Boon Support Build. Also on most Runes that are meta today, the set bonus is just not that impressive. Runes of the Krait or Firebrand for example, you just lose one condi trigger on Elite Skill usage with a high Cooldown. Runes of Balthazar is +10% Health, nice but nobody took it for that effect. Runes of Tormenting, gain Regeneration after inflicting Torment, big whoop. So switching to this new system will not invalidate Legendary Runes but might even make more Runes usable than before and therefore increase the value of them. Simply demanding Anet to hand out a Legendary Relic is not "restoring functionality" as we gain something different and imho much better than before. I also have Legendary Runes and I have no problem with it, in contrary I am quite excited for what that means for build crafting.
And I get it, for some of you it is just about the principle, you will lose something that you had previously (however small it may be and disregarding how the new stuff might be way better) and thats where the compansation comes in, have fun with that. Also lets suppose Anet would not change Runes as they are but just introduce Relics, you would have to craft one for each of your builds anyways. Again, demanding a free Legendary Relic is just way over the top and dying on this hill or "threatening" to never buy gems or the expansions ever again is ridicolous.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Brandash.4956

[Geralt.7519]

48 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

Won't quit over this, but will def be angry and less likely to spend gems on this game if we get the screw over.  Having full runes do not expect to have to fork out more gold for something already finished.

For me the problem is not the gold, I mean, how many rune sets can you buy with 2300 gold, a hell lot.

It's the freedom to change stats/set bonus/whatever any time anywhere, not having to clutter inventory with lots of different upgrades, not having to worry EVER AGAIN about grinding upgrades, that's what made me do legendary runes AND sigils.

If that is going away, there's no point in making legendaries anymore.

[Geralt.7519]

19 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

might even make more Runes usable than before and therefore increase the value of them

There are 3 different runes that have exactly the same stats as Scholar (in other cases there are even 4 or 5 with the same stats), why Scholar is so valuable while the other 2 are not? Because of the 6th slot.

Take the 6th slot away and you'll end up with Scholar not being so valuable anymore because now it's just stats and you have 3 times more runes with same stats overflooding the market, that makes runes less valuable, not more.

Same with all the rest of the runes, you won't use "more runes", you'll just have more runes that are exactly the same, dumping their value because they're not unique anymore.

That's not to say the new relic system is a bad system, but saying it doesn't devalue runes - especially legendaries - is wrong.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Geralt.7519
typo

[Ezelbys.8719]

If the relic system is account wide, and unlock based, I've got no problem with the changes, but i already believe the new stats at each release shouldn't be given immediately to legendary items, which seems to be unpopular around here.

However, if the relic system is like the jade bot system, you are 100% shooting yourself in the foot, and i implore you to reconsider.

[Brandash.4956]

23 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Take the 6th slot away and you'll end up with Scholar not being so valuable anymore because now it's just stats and you have 3 times more runes with same stats overflooding the market, that makes runes less valuable, not more.

Scholar is expensive because it is best in slot for many builds. Take the set bonus away and you will still have one Rune that is best in slot and therefore will be sought after the most. Reminds me of that time when SnowCrows listed Sigils of Centaur Slaying as one of many options to get the +3% Strike Damage, they increases to 1g+ on the TP while all the other Slaying Sigils stayed as low as always lol. Also why would Anet make the new 6. bonus the same on all the similar Runes, that makes no sense and is a bad faith argument.
But it is besides the point. I haven't talked about the monetary value, there is no point in this because the cost of full Legendary Runes is far greater than the combined cost of all the Runes you would ever need. I talked about the value of the ability to swap to any Rune, while now you are using like at most 10 different Runes in your builds, this may change in the future and therefore make this ability a creater value of Legendary Runes

Edited July 8, 2023 by Brandash.4956

[Geralt.7519]

17 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

why would Anet make the new 6. bonus the same on all the similar Runes, that makes no sense and is a bad faith argument.

You're not getting it, there won't be a new 6th bonus, there won't be ANY set bonus at all on runes, that's what relics are for.

 

17 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

while now you are using like at most 10 different Runes in your builds, this may change in the future and therefore make this ability a creater value of Legendary Runes

If now I need to use 10 different runes, after the change I will only need 1-2 at most, making legendaries useless, because carrying 2 runes in my bags is nowhere near as annoying as having to carry 10.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Geralt.7519

[Linken.6345]

23 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

Scholar is expensive because it is best in slot for many builds. Take the set bonus away and you will still have one Rune that is best in slot and therefore will be sought after the most. Reminds me of that time when SnowCrows listed Sigils of Centaur Slaying as one of many options to get the +3% Strike Damage, they increases to 1g+ on the TP while all the other Slaying Sigils stayed as low as always lol. Also why would Anet make the new 6. bonus the same on all the similar Runes, that makes no sense and is a bad faith argument.
But it is besides the point. I haven't talked about the monetary value, there is no point in this because the cost of full Legendary Runes is far greater than the combined cost of all the Runes you would ever need. I talked about the value of the ability to swap to any Rune, while now you are using like at most 10 different Runes in your builds, this may change in the future and therefore make this ability a creater value of Legendary Runes

You do know that these both have the exact same stat if you take away the 6th bonus effect and stat that the relic system will do they cost 1/3 to 1/4th as much

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Deadeye

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Ogre

Edit

I mean they might just make all the rune with same stat the same one to reduce the rune combinations then just keep the bonus effect as a relic.

Why should we have 3 different power ferocity runes and all thats diffrent is 125 power 6th slot, 125 ferocity 6th slot and third one 65 power, 60 ferocity.

Since there would be less to balance that way.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Brandash.4956]

4 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

You're not getting it, there won't be a new 6th bonus, there won't be ANY set bonus at all on runes, that's what relics are for.

If now I need to use 10 different runes, after the change I will only need 1, 2 at most, making legendaries useless, because carrying 2 runes in my bags will be nowhere near as annoying as having to carry 10.

Correct there won't be a set bonuses, but the 6. Rune will still obviously provide something. Runes of the Scholar currently gives you Ferocity on the 6. slot, so I guess this will stay the same. The similar Runes can then provide Power, Precision or something else on the 6. slot.
Read what I wrote please or I won't engage with your comments anymore. There are many builds currently in use where the set bonus of the Runes is negligible, so you will still use those after the update. Also not all Power builds used Scholar and now you have the potential to use other Runes better suitable to your build, while keeping the Scholar Buff through Relics. The same is true with Heal builds. "1, 2 at most" is just so far from the truth, it is not even hyperbolic anymore, just simply misunderstanding the current and future system.

[SmokingLord.6108]

I never thought I would use the Ignore functionality until this thread lol bless

[Geralt.7519]

2 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

Correct there won't be a set bonuses, but the 6. Rune will still obviously provide something. Runes of the Scholar currently gives you Ferocity on the 6. slot, so I guess this will stay the same. The similar Runes can then provide Power, Precision or something else on the 6. slot.

That's correct, the 6 slot will provide something, tho it's highly likely that stats will be rebalanced across all runes to avoid power creep, effectively leveraging them to avoid the same situation we have now.

They also said they're changing the effects on relics, that is, relics won't be a carbon-copy of the effects runes have now, they will be something different, they made an example with thief.

We need to see them before we can judge, but still, legendaries ARE devaluated by this, because the reason to make legendary runes is the ability to change set bonus on the fly, that is going away, unless they make a legendary relic.

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Brandash.4956 said:

The new Runes + Relics are a way better system then the old Runes. Out of the 99 existing Runes, ~69 have a unique stat distribution when you simply ignore the 6th bonus, still more then enough options to warrant a Legendary, with much more flexibility and potential for unused Runes to shine because previously their set bonus wasn't as powerful as the meta alternative. Now you can for example keep your Scholar-Buff but switch to Runes of the Pack and trade a bit Ferocity for 15% Boon Duration on a Boon Support Build. Also on most Runes that are meta today, the set bonus is just not that impressive. Runes of the Krait or Firebrand for example, you just lose one condi trigger on Elite Skill usage with a high Cooldown. Runes of Balthazar is +10% Health, nice but nobody took it for that effect. Runes of Tormenting, gain Regeneration after inflicting Torment, big whoop. So switching to this new system will not invalidate Legendary Runes but might even make more Runes usable than before and therefore increase the value of them. Simply demanding Anet to hand out a Legendary Relic is not "restoring functionality" as we gain something different and imho much better than before. I also have Legendary Runes and I have no problem with it, in contrary I am quite excited for what that means for build crafting.
And I get it, for some of you it is just about the principle, you will lose something that you had previously (however small it may be and disregarding how the new stuff might be way better) and thats where the compansation comes in, have fun with that. Also lets suppose Anet would not change Runes as they are but just introduce Relics, you would have to craft one for each of your builds anyways. Again, demanding a free Legendary Relic is just way over the top and dying on this hill or "threatening" to never buy gems or the expansions ever again is ridicolous.

1) I currently have a sixth tier bonus. Removing that bonus means that asking for it back is in fact, by the very definition of the term, asking for functionality to be restored.

2) There is nothing ridiculous in a consumer choosing to not spend money on a product that they do not wish to buy.

3) What is ridiculous is changing the meaning of words and phrases in our common language in order to support one's position. Also insisting that one who does not choose to give a corporation their money is grounds for ridicule.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Ashantara.8731]

On 7/6/2023 at 2:33 AM, notebene.3190 said:

Shouldn't every character just be given the 'relic' that they currently have, and then use the new system to craft 'different' relics, should they choose to do so?

That would actually make the most sense for exotic runes. 👍

Still doesn't solve the issue with legendaries that people are concerned about.
 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Brandash.4956]

22 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

the reason to make legendary runes is the ability to change set bonus on the fly

Just because it is different does not mean it is inherently worse. You didn't use Legendary Runes because you wanted to swap from Runes of the Scholar to Deadeye, so the quote is simply not true. On the vast majority of Runes, the set bonus is not worth talking about. It also doesn't really matter what they do with the duplicates, if they add more stat variety or merge them to one, we will still have 69-99 different Runes after the update, if this is all they are doing to them. The only usecase of Legendary Runes is the QoL of not having to have multiple sets of Runes stored somewhere and as the number of useful Runes might increase as I pointed out, this might make Legendary Runes better than they currently are.

Lets imagine Anet added a new Condition Damage Rune in EoD that is slightly superior to Krait, Nightmare etc and now all Condi DPS builds on SnowCrows use this Rune. I doubt there would have been even a fraction of this shitstorm even though that would have actually devalued Legendary Runes tremendously.

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

Lets imagine Anet added a new Condition Damage Rune in EoD that is slightly superior to Krait, Nightmare etc and now all Condi DPS builds on SnowCrows use this Rune. I doubt there would have been even a fraction of this shitstorm even though that would have actually devalued Legendary Runes tremendously.

How would it have devalued legendary runes if having them meant being able to instantly adopt the new superior option because legendaries included all new options? If anything it would demonstrate the immense value of legendary runes.

[Linken.6345]

14 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

How would it have devalued legendary runes if having them meant being able to instantly adopt the new superior option because legendaries included all new options? If anything it would demonstrate the immense value of legendary runes.

I would like to know this too cant  understand @Brandash.4956 reasoning here at all.

[Brandash.4956]

26 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

How would it have devalued legendary runes if having them meant being able to instantly adopt the new superior option because legendaries included all new options? If anything it would demonstrate the immense value of legendary runes.

Legendary Runes are only devalued if the number of useful/used Runes are reduced and I am not the only one to have recogniced this, for example a few posts above:

1 hour ago, Geralt.7519 said:

If now I need to use 10 different runes, after the change I will only need 1-2 at most, making legendaries useless, because carrying 2 runes in my bags is nowhere near as annoying as having to carry 10.

Which is exactly the situation in my supposition but as outlined earlier not the case in this new Runes + Relic system.

[Ashen.2907]

2 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

Legendary Runes are only devalued if the number of useful/used Runes are reduced and I am not the only one to have recogniced this, for example a few posts above:

Which is exactly the situation in my supposition but as outlined earlier not the case in this new Runes + Relic system.

I disagree with the premise that the ability to freely adopt new runes devalues legendaries, but at least I understand where you are coming from. 

[Geralt.7519]

44 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

Lets imagine Anet added a new Condition Damage Rune in EoD that is slightly superior to Krait, Nightmare etc and now all Condi DPS builds on SnowCrows use this Rune. I doubt there would have been even a fraction of this shitstorm even though that would have actually devalued Legendary Runes tremendously.

Every time they add new stat combos to the game, legendaries get them immediately, so in your example, if they added EoD superior condi damage, runes would get it immediately, you don't even need to buy EoD for that to happen, that's the purpose of legendaries, why do you say they're devalued by this? I don't understand.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Geralt.7519

[Winters.8756]

21 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hello everyone, we have been following this conversation and continuing to read your feedback since my last post, and I'm here to give you another quick update. Like other major elements of the expansion, we’re planning on providing more information on relics before launch. For relics specifically, we’re working to get that blog ready for publish on July 18—and because I know you’re wondering, that timeline is so we can write it, review it for accuracy, edit it, and translate it into all supported languages.

We know that the legendary rune compensation is of great interest to you, and we'll be sharing more of our plans about that in the blog post. While that's still coming, I want to clarify a bit about my note on compensation. This will not be an unrelated item; it’s going to be part of the relics system. We’ll have more details in that upcoming blog post.

Finally, I want to thank you all for continuing to have this conversation and share your feedback with us. It’s been helpful and we all appreciate it.

I appreciate that this is being thought about and addressed. I am however wondering if while the devs are looking at legendary armory compensations are they going to rectify how not everyone was compensated for duplicate legendary armors sets for when the legendary armory was first released? I have talked to support multiple times about this and to this day I still have two sets of legendary armor for each piece that I don't need, they actually are a hindrance and at the least my life would be easier if they're removed, they provide no use whatsoever. 

Also, if whatever the compensation is doesn't go through properly for everyone will it be revisited this time or like last time for those that don't properly get whatever the compensation is will they be SoL like last time at legendary armory release?

[Pifil.5193]

6 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

It could be that relics do not work like runes. If they're freely swappable account-wide unlocks, there would be no need for a legendary relic.

Unlikely, but possible.

That would be almost OK then, then the compensation could be them unlocking the Relic for every Rune set that Legendary Runes currently have. You're still losing the future proofing of Legendary Runes.

But yeah, I think it's unlikely that it's an account wide unlock as they talk about them being crafted in the blog... mind you Legendary Runes are also an account wide unlock. 🤷‍♂️

Edited July 8, 2023 by Pifil.5193

[WithoutAssumption.7936]

4 hours ago, Mike.7983 said:

Won't quit over this, but will def be angry and less likely to spend gems on this game if we get the screw over.  Having full runes do not expect to have to fork out more gold for something already finished.

I wouldn't say I'm going to quit because of this one specific change, especially since I prefer Relics mechanically to the old system, but I was already on the fence about this expansion and seeing something I spent a lot of my limited resources on being made measurably worse is definitely pushing me further towards sitting it out.

30 minutes ago, Brandash.4956 said:

Legendary Runes are only devalued if the number of useful/used Runes are reduced

That may be your opinion.  In my opinion Legendary Runes are devalued if they no longer fulfill the purpose I created them for.  They will not fulfill that purpose in SotO, so the expansion will devalue them.