Boonball meta is bad

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Is zerging in general even an accepted gameplay here? Reading this forum sometimes makes me think there’s only roamers here.

Yes it is. Yes there are a lot of roamers and havocs here. There are a lot of issues here. Some of them come down to counters. Some come down to should it be the most effective way. Another issue is options in counter play versus blob tactics. And the list goes on.

[CafPow.1542]

28 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Yes it is. Yes there are a lot of roamers and havocs here. There are a lot of issues here. Some of them come down to counters. Some come down to should it be the most effective way. Another issue is options in counter play versus blob tactics. And the list goes on.

The thing is, i don’t have a lot of experience in wvw but zerging as a „big blob“ kinda automatically implies (in my opinion) that there will be a lot of boons.

it seems like complaining that water is wet you know.

[XenesisII.1540]

There is nothing wrong with how a player wants to play, whether it's solo, roaming, small group, zerg, blob, gvg.

The issue is counter play, pvp is about healthy counter play.

 

Just now, CafPow.1542 said:

The thing is, i don’t have a lot of experience in wvw but zerging as a „big blob“ kinda automatically implies (in my opinion) that there will be a lot of boons.

it seems like complaining that water is wet you know.

Well then you weren't here before the boon ball became the one and only way to play a zerg, it wasn't always like that, it's gotten way worse in the past 3-5 years.

[CafPow.1542]

1 minute ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Well then you weren't here before the boon ball became the one and only way to play a zerg, it wasn't always like that, it's gotten way worse in the past 3-5 years.

That’s true i wasn’t there but realistically… more player spill out more boons isn’t that true?

why were boons not as big as an issue back then? It’s hard to imagine a blob of 40 people without some boons…

generally I’d say „more people have more boons“ was always true in all the game time? What changed so hard?

[XenesisII.1540]

11 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

That’s true i wasn’t there but realistically… more player spill out more boons isn’t that true?

why were boons not as big as an issue back then? It’s hard to imagine a blob of 40 people without some boons…

generally I’d say „more people have more boons“ was always true in all the game time? What changed so hard?

Elite specs, firebrand in particular, overhauls to scrapper like purity of purpose, making those two the strongest support together for 3-4 years.

Moving away from field blasting to more passive support spam.

Adding more support specs.

Adding more boon types.

Adding more boon spam.

Adding more defenses like barrier.

Nerfing boon strips and corruption.

Nerfing target caps.

Nerfing aoe damage.

Nerfing cc damage.

Nerfing siege damage.

🤷‍♂️

Edited January 7 by XenesisII.1540

[CafPow.1542]

Hmm. Cause Firebrand and scrapper are longer in the game than 3-5 years afaik. That’s why i was not sure but all the thing cumulated create another picture.

i have to say that i lately like clouding more and trying to „pick out people“ from zergs and slowly bleeding them out is funnier than just boonballing but that’s just me. I’m sure the meta shifts again, the question is when.

[XenesisII.1540]

2 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Hmm. Cause Firebrand and scrapper are longer in the game than 3-5 years afaik. That’s why i was not sure but all the thing cumulated create another picture.

i have to say that i lately like clouding more and trying to „pick out people“ from zergs and slowly bleeding them out is funnier than just boonballing but that’s just me. I’m sure the meta shifts again, the question is when.

Dunno might be more funnier to see my team mates get mindlessly farmed 10 to 1 to boon balls, but that's just me.

Meta isn't going to shift until CMC is relieved of his position, which isn't a guarantee of anything, considering the person he replaced had a hardon for firebrands, and he has a hardon for elementalist, biased balancing, I fully expect the next person wouldn't rock the boat either. 🤷‍♂️🍦

[CafPow.1542]

I don’t know either, was just asking myself why this is such a thing. But thanks for clarifying. 

[Bunbury.8472]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

The thing is, i don’t have a lot of experience in wvw but zerging as a „big blob“ kinda automatically implies (in my opinion) that there will be a lot of boons.

it seems like complaining that water is wet you know.

it's a reaction to the last few patches nerfing all the main BOONRIP builds to the ground. u used to have significantly more counters to a booned up group, now you don't.

that's the issue basically.

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

The thing is, i don’t have a lot of experience in wvw but zerging as a „big blob“ kinda automatically implies (in my opinion) that there will be a lot of boons.

This varies server by server and group by group. A cloud server might be running boons to aid themselves and if it helps others all the better. A zerg busting group might be trying to run tight and contain their boon share to make sure its applied to their players so that they can use less to do more. A havoc or roamer might be running boon share to help their group or themselves and others around them.

This all sounds good on paper but it leads to who can stack more closer, and with more share has more impact. It removes efficiency from the game play. Do more with less is also an idea. But currently more boons means more advantage which is the issue.

[CafPow.1542]

28 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

But currently more boons means more advantage which is the issue.

I agree generally but on the other hand, boons are capped. You can’t have more than 25 might. So if 2 zergs full of boons get to each other, then it’s not about the boons who wins or is it?

not saying this is a good design. Maybe boons are to strong or there are some boons who are to much like aegis spamming or whatnot.

[latlat.4516]

22 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Even in its prime 3 with siege could not hold 50 at bay.

yeah, and the game is better like that.

22 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

even before the boon age you could stand in do by simply using PVT

the time people used PVT gear was before the siege rework, when a single siege weapon could go far over 100k damage (maybe the AC could only go up to 72k over all its pulses), and even then with the knowledge of the game we have now I'm not sure we would have used PVT gear at all anyway.

Furtermore, and if memory serves well, there was at most 1 year between the siege rework and the introduction of minstrel gear, which rendered completly pointless the use of statistics like PVT. Your "before the age of boon" at most refers to this time frame, and it's a time when having boons or not was the difference between  random pick ups and organized guild raids. 

 

23 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Course in those days players were asking that PVT gear be removed since they couldn't be one shot like Zerk on Zerk could be. 

Or maybe, just maybe, players finally understood that spezializing offers better results than every one being tanky.

 

But it has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is "is boonball the worst meta yet ?", the anwser being clearly "no, even if it has not enough counters in the current balance".

[RisingDawn.5796]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:49 AM, Jski.6180 said:

Its boon ball or pirate ship that is where the game move to for its meta. At least the melee version makes ppl fight and not always run away (or waiting for one side to attk) with the ranged version.

I'm not sure this 'turtle' meta with chrono stacking is that much better, even is there's more melee engages, with holos and berserkers as damage dealers, anything else that deals decent damage as optional. some fights last longer than they should, especially with heal scourges, although their heals got nerfed, you got Transfusion, which can also get you wiped though.

I can't  imagine gvg being fun atm either. I still think, pre-hot and pre-stab nerf was great, because it was easier to balance core classes.

It seems to even make the servers overload too, per map.

Edited January 9 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, latlat.4516 said:

yeah, and the game is better like that.

Better like that? So if 3 could never hold 50 why did you say 3 could hold 50 when they couldn't? How many were you seeing that were holding 50?

13 hours ago, latlat.4516 said:

the time people used PVT gear was before the siege rework, when a single siege weapon could go far over 100k damage

Mind sharing where these number came from? Played in PVT then and now and it was easy then and now even easier. Glass had the issues which is where nerfs came in. We should not  balance glass on glass.

13 hours ago, latlat.4516 said:

I'm not sure we would have used PVT gear at all anyway.

So you asked for nerfs since you you weren't meant to stand in AC fire and just aided zerg play?

13 hours ago, latlat.4516 said:

Furtermore, and if memory serves well, there was at most 1 year between the siege rework and the introduction of minstrel gear, which rendered completly pointless the use of statistics like PVT.

So this is a matter of Paper Rock Scissors. Glass, Medium, Tank. PVT is Medium, Zerk is Glass, Minstrel is tank in the example you provided. 

13 hours ago, latlat.4516 said:

But it has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is "is boonball the worst meta yet ?",

Boonball impacts gameplay on various levels and lack of counters is the issue. Zerk/Med/Tank are impacted by all this the same.

13 hours ago, latlat.4516 said:

the anwser being clearly "no, even if it has not enough counters in the current balance".

No the answer here is with enough boons all can be Tanks and Zerks at the same time, and as you add more the more this has a chance to be. Does that make more sense?

[Jski.6180]

12 hours ago, CrimsonOneThree.5682 said:

I'm not sure this 'turtle' meta with chrono stacking is that much better, even is there's more melee engages, with holos and berserkers as damage dealers, anything else that deals decent damage as optional.

I can't  imagine gvg being fun atm either, I still think, pre-hot was great, because it was easier to balance core classes.

It seems to even make the servers overload too.

At least you use more classes that way as you can get more support out of the melee ball and still be viable as an ranged dps where in the ranged boon ball you effectively cut all melee from the game (as well as pure pirate ship meta.)

Its melee boon ball, ranged boon ball or pirate ship that about all the meta we have and melee boon ball is the best of the 3.

 

[Solomon Darkfury.3729]

If you wanna kill boon ball the solution is simple, nerf Inspiration Chrono's Chaos Aura... boom done...

[Solomon Darkfury.3729]

10 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Better like that? So if 3 could never hold 50 why did you say 3 could hold 50 when they couldn't? How many were you seeing that were holding 50?

Mind sharing where these number came from? Played in PVT then and now and it was easy then and now even easier. Glass had the issues which is where nerfs came in. We should not  balance glass on glass.

So you asked for nerfs since you you weren't meant to stand in AC fire and just aided zerg play?

So this is a matter of Paper Rock Scissors. Glass, Medium, Tank. PVT is Medium, Zerk is Glass, Minstrel is tank in the example you provided. 

Boonball impacts gameplay on various levels and lack of counters is the issue. Zerk/Med/Tank are impacted by all this the same.

No the answer here is with enough boons all can be Tanks and Zerks at the same time, and as you add more the more this has a chance to be. Does that make more sense?

Lol no one uses PVT... balanced builds are all either Cele or Marauder...

[Jackthetripper.9035]

Fix it

[Aeolus.3615]

17 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

At least you use more classes that way as you can get more support out of the melee ball and still be viable as an ranged dps where in the ranged boon ball you effectively cut all melee from the game (as well as pure pirate ship meta.)

Its melee boon ball, ranged boon ball or pirate ship that about all the meta we have and melee boon ball is the best of the 3.

 

Now only if Anet  removed minstrell from game...  :) that would be a great balance patch.

Edited January 10 by Aeolus.3615

[CafPow.1542]

27 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Now only if Anet  removed minstrell from game...  🙂 that would be a great balance patch.

Maybe but to be fair: if minstrel would be removed (or nerfed) another statcombo would take place by default and because bad ppl still fail to react to it, they would call for nerfs again.  There will always be something to complain about.

maybe you’re right. But the floods of salt will never stop.

i get deletet regularly by many professions on many stat combos. If i wanted to create a nerf-thread every time i would have 10 times the amount of posts lol. But in my case i realize, that failing to win a 1v1 against a zerker-soulbeast mostly i ls a me-issue. I’d just be happy if more ppl would realize that.

 

the difficulty is, to separate between genuine critique and a pure salt post.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Maybe but to be fair: if minstrel would be removed (or nerfed) another statcombo would take place by default and because bad ppl still fail to react to it, they would call for nerfs again.  There will always be something to complain about.

maybe you’re right. But the floods of salt will never stop.

i get deletet regularly by many professions on many stat combos. If i wanted to create a nerf-thread every time i would have 10 times the amount of posts lol. But in my case i realize, that failing to win a 1v1 against a zerker-soulbeast mostly i ls a me-issue. I’d just be happy if more ppl would realize that.

 

the difficulty is, to separate between genuine critique and a pure salt post.

 

No other stat combo is that 100% perfect for defense+boon spam+heals, all other stats have more space for that group to create an error while with perma alacrity + quickness+ perma stability, if u have more numbers its a 100% win guarantee even if the big zerg does only mistakes lol... 

The stats are way to perfect to mass stacking and fail way less, and Anet will kept nerfing classes while the issue is the 100% defensive and support stats themselves + the perma all boons.

Imo the reason for touch minstrels and only that stat is that the change or removal of the stats will make a huge dent on getting gameplay more balance towards player skill rather than make players stack lots of classes on minstrells, without it players would actually have to play better as a group rather than mass boon spam and win over groups with less boons wich is just what happens the group with more  spam wins.

I dont mind the boon ball IF theres sacfrifices for perma boons, but haveing perfect defensive stats and boonball is not balance  it is just stupidity to carry certain players.

 

Edited January 10 by Aeolus.3615

[CafPow.1542]

Hmm. Maybe. I don’t know, maybe your analysis is better than mine, i can’t say. I wouldn’t say that having a certain stat does lower or increase a players skilllebel that drastically. Especially when i read that some ppl have the idea that it’s enough to press an imaginary „i win button“ that gets automatically enabled wearing cele stats if you know what i mean.

but maybe you’re right 🙂

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Now only if Anet  removed minstrell from game...  🙂 that would be a great balance patch.

Then every one would just use cele it would not change much.

Or worst every one would swap over to nomads.

Edited January 10 by Jski.6180

[Aeolus.3615]

8 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Then every one would just use cele it would not change much.

Or worst every one would swap over to nomads.

Nomads has no boon duration i am ok with that, the effort of permanent boons would be drastically reduced and strips would make more effect, perma alacrity builds would have to search for long boon duration stats if wanted to min max boon duration.

With celestial every one would do more damage against each other and kinda heals less despise boons would have long duration on the stack, i am ok with that, would be probably still better than what we have now.

Edited January 11 by Aeolus.3615

[Jski.6180]

16 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Nomads has no boon duration i am ok with that, the effort of permanent boons would be drastically reduced and strips would make more effect, perma alacrity builds would have to search for long boon duration stats if wanted to min max boon duration.

With celestial every one would do more damage against each other and kinda heals less despise boons would have long duration on the stack, i am ok with that, would be probably still better than what we have now.

You just need the boon for the fight and not outside of the fight an perma boon though 1 skill in no way make the boon ball work its about stacking more then one cast of the boon that makes it powerful. If it was just boon duration then any type of boon strip would be an hard counter to the current melee boon meta.

I think you maybe over thinking what armor can do over sustain.

Melee boon balls are better then ranged boon balls and pirate ship/clouding as you can give more classes viable for use in wvw. And the truth is as long as we don't have well define "this is where i am casting my boons and support" during combat the player casting the support is always going to be an better tell for ppl to get the support. That alone is going to keep the boonball meta going.