Is it time to give Engi a weapon swap?

[Sirvaleen.1379]

You already have one, it's called Kits. With toolbelt skills replacing the utility slots used by those. But since you can use more than 1 kit most of them have to be kitten, like quite a few toolbelt skills.

TLDR: you can weapon swap, to your only other working weapon aka grenade kit. If it doesn't make you happy, it's probably because you're not using enough kits.

Signed : the laughing guard

[Batalix.2873]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:30 PM, Kiro Kobra.6478 said:

It would make sense to allow weapon swap if no kit utilities are equipped.

I hate the kits, mainly for aesthetic reasons. Especially the bomb kit, when everyone else is doing cool stuff, I'm over here plopping down bomb turds. No thanks.

 

I foresee a lot of issues if weapon swap was allowed across-the-board, but if no kit abilities are equipped, then it should be allowed.

I do agree with this, though.

A lot of older skills look really underwhelming and outdated, and this is extremely evident in the Engi kits. They could really stand to see an aesthetic/mechanical overhaul to make them feel "cooler" to use.

[Kuma.1503]

What we need is an actual update on our kits. 

[Obtena.7952]

14 hours ago, pbalint.1607 said:

Because short bow is a 1 dimensional weapon, with almost no defensive abilities, further pigeonholing any engineer that takes it into doing 1 thing only and poorly...

Hold on ... Engineers need a weapon swap because short bow is this? That doesn't make sense. Short bow skills have nothing to do with the decision to deny engi weapon swap. I mean, your argument is literally Engi has a bad weapon, so it needs a swap. That's nonsense.

Here is a better idea ... just don't use the weapon if it's bad because giving engi swap doesn't fix what is wrong with the weapon anyways. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Jobber.6348]

5 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

What we need is an actual update on our kits. 

Yes, thank you. And while we're at it, Turrets as well. Or just consolidate all Turrets into a Turret kit as an Elite and have Supply Crate be its Toolbelt. 

Kits have been rather clunk for a long time and I honestly like some of the kits better if they were more consistent with an actual weapon set. 

The kits I think need some looking at are Mortar and Grenade. The 1 skill being an area target you gotta spam is honestly some levels of hilariously clunky nonsense in modern GW2. 

People may say Bomb kit as well but I honestly love how you just spam that 1 like you're taking a dump and it explodes after a half second. 

[MaLong.2079]

On 6/28/2023 at 1:28 PM, Bomboed.5697 said:

Title says it all. With all new weapon options being open for core, is there any reason for not giving Engi a proper second weapon?

If there is something Engineers can do, and many already do, is swap swap swap. Swap between kits, weapons or photon forge. Adding another swap doesn't sound attractive to me. And make no mistake, if swap is introduced for Engi, ANET will make sure you HAVE to swap weapons to play the profession effectively no matter the spec. I honestly think it would completely change the feel and play style of the profession.

[Kuma.1503]

On 12/7/2023 at 3:46 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... Engineers need a weapon swap because short bow is this? That doesn't make sense. Short bow skills have nothing to do with the decision to deny engi weapon swap.

Agreed. 

On 12/7/2023 at 3:46 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

 I mean, your argument is literally Engi has a bad weapon, so it needs a swap. That's nonsense.

This is incorrect. The argument is that shortbow is insufficient as a stand-alone weapon. Using it is like playing Longbow ranger without greatsword. The weapon has massive weaknesses that could be compensated for with another weapon. 

Shortbow notably lacks mobility, defense, and struggles to land its damage. Complimenting it with rifle for mobility and DPS or Pistol/mace + shield for condi damage that is easy to land, and some actual defense would allow this weapon to shine in more content. Most notably PvP/WvW. 

I don't agree with this solution persoally. I think making kits more functional would suffice in place of a weapon swap. This would also spare us the inevitable nerfs that would hit once Engi gets weapon swap. 

On 12/7/2023 at 3:46 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Here is a better idea ... just don't use the weapon if it's bad because giving engi swap doesn't fix what is wrong with the weapon anyways. 

This is a non-solution and just shuts down the conversation. 

[Benevolent.4083]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:30 PM, Kiro Kobra.6478 said:

It would make sense to allow weapon swap if no kit utilities are equipped.

I hate the kits, mainly for aesthetic reasons. Especially the bomb kit, when everyone else is doing cool stuff, I'm over here plopping down bomb turds. No thanks.

 

I foresee a lot of issues if weapon swap was allowed across-the-board, but if no kit abilities are equipped, then it should be allowed.

I'd say this is the route to go. Either Kits needs a COMPLETE OVERHAUL or the Engineer should get a Weapon Swap option if no kits are slotted. This seems a fair trade off. Considering that the reason Engineers don't have a weapon swap is BECAUSE of the the Kits being an option, we should have the choice to do one or the other.

I personally don't like the kits. Ten percent of the time I'm not using one. But to not use one, I'm limited as I have no weapon swap, which is a disadvantage compared to other classes.

But the truth is, ANET doesn't care about Engineer. They refuse to give other weapons an overheat feature for Holosmith, no matter how many times we've asked for it. Now they won't even adjust the swords power dmg for when used outside of Holosmith. Yet they'll do EVERYTHING for the Elementalist weapons, Thief dual skills, Berserker rage skills each weapon, Ambush skills for Mirage weapons, Unleash skills for Untamed weapons, etc. (Sorry if I didn't get all the wording right for those).

Now, with this upcoming update with new weapons, they gave us this CRAPPY piece of a Shortbow and will likely not do much to improve it, despite it serving no purpose to Engineers.

I want them at least try to care about Engineer, but I'm not holding my breath.

[draxynnic.3719]

I thought they DID give sword a small boost when used by non-holosmith? Just not enough to realistically compete with hammer or mace...

Thematically, I don't think it's even necessary to have a 'weaponswap if no kits' functionality. The real tradeoff isn't kits specifically, it's that engineer gets more out of its utility slots than other professions. Theoretically, if you're not using any kits, it's because what you ARE using is good enough to offset the lack of a weaponswap. This is why mechanist signets are so much better than signet skills on other professions, for example.

In practice, of course, there are flaws with how this currently works, but I think adding a weaponswap would be a bandaid when they should instead be fixing the utility skills that already exist... and possibly recognising that some ideas might be better implemented as a new kit than as a new weapon (looks pointedly at shortbow).

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Agreed. 

This is incorrect. The argument is that shortbow is insufficient as a stand-alone weapon. Using it is like playing Longbow ranger without greatsword. The weapon has massive weaknesses that could be compensated for with another weapon. 

Shortbow notably lacks mobility, defense, and struggles to land its damage. Complimenting it with rifle for mobility and DPS or Pistol/mace + shield for condi damage that is easy to land, and some actual defense would allow this weapon to shine in more content. Most notably PvP/WvW. 

I don't agree with this solution persoally. I think making kits more functional would suffice in place of a weapon swap. This would also spare us the inevitable nerfs that would hit once Engi gets weapon swap. 

This is a non-solution and just shuts down the conversation. 

Sure, because the conversation where short bow being insufficient and therefore, engi needs a weapon swap SHOULD be shut down. It's a nonsensical justification. If short bow is insufficient, this thread isn't the one to discuss fixing it and in the thread where it would be discussed, the 'solution' would most certainly NOT be giving engi a weapon swap. 

Might as well complain engi should get weapon swap because water is wet or lemons are sour. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Agreed. 

This is incorrect. The argument is that shortbow is insufficient as a stand-alone weapon. Using it is like playing Longbow ranger without greatsword. The weapon has massive weaknesses that could be compensated for with another weapon.

Then use the other weapons. You know.... just like you're doing currently. Bad weapons also exist for other classes, so that means they should have new mechanics slapped on top of their current ones or have a 3rd weapon swap slot or get another mechnic on top of their current ones? 🤦‍♂️ Whether you think new weapon is good or bad still doesn't make it a basis for this request. And that's even without considering that what we saw was a beta test of a weapon, probably none of these weapons are in their final state.

9 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Shortbow notably lacks mobility, defense

How lucky then that you have about 10 other skill slots to fill with whatever you feel needs to be there.

9 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

This is a non-solution and just shuts down the conversation. 

What conversation? "we get one more weapon and I don't like it/think it's bad, so it means the class needs to have a whole new weapon slot now"? That doesn't make sense to the point it basically shuts itself down.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Twilightmage.8309]

Honestly it would be cool if engis got a new kit every so often instead of just a new weapon now that they are adding stuff like that. They do def need some reworking though to make them more modern.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

I think the "no toolbelt" issue is easily fixed if Anet ever makes our mechanic to be a equippable Kit ( like Revs get equippable stances ) as our swap: Just condense some of the utilities into their toolbelt skills or create new ones, and the toolbelt traits could be changed to "on swap" or to something else entirely.

So for instance, our elixir skills could be throwable, having smaller effects on our allies. Things like Rocket, or Napalm could either become new utilities or traits. Rocket Jump could have it's Rocket Kick as a follow-up skill, or a entirely new utility. Etc etc.

Hell, they could even give us the Untamed Hammer treatment and make some of those skills into swappable weapon skills. It would be fun.

[Kuma.1503]

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, because the conversation where short bow being insufficient and therefore, engi needs a weapon swap SHOULD be shut down. It's a nonsensical justification. If short bow is insufficient, this thread isn't the one to discuss fixing it and in the thread where it would be discussed, the 'solution' would most certainly NOT be giving engi a weapon swap. 

Might as well complain engi should get weapon swap because water is wet or lemons are sour. 

Step 1 to fixing a problem is identifying it. 

The problem identified is a valid one. Shortbow has flaws that would be solved with a 2nd weapon set. The solution proposed is one several Engi mains here (myself icluded) don't agree with. But that opens the door to suggest alternate solutions, such as improving engi's kits. The medkit mini-rework was a good start and I'd like to see more of these usability improvements to Engi's other kits. 

There's a time and place where conversations should be shut down, but where valid concerns are raised and imperfect solutions are proposed, the more productive thing to do would be to suggest something better. Don't have a better solution? Then you don't have to join the conversation. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The problem identified is a valid one. Shortbow has flaws that would be solved with a 2nd weapon set.

Sure, Sbow being bad is a valid complaint ... just not in this thread. Engi getting a second weapon swap addresses SBow flaws? No it doesn't, because if the problem is "Sbow = bad", even if you have a second weapon, Sbow is still bad.  A BETTER solution ... just don't equip Sbow. Even if engi got a weapon swap, that STILL wouldn't be a compelling reason for people who think Sbow=bad to equip it., just like having a weapon swap isn't a compelling reason for ANY class that has it to equip a bad weapon. 

Again, having a bad weapon doesn't justify giving Engi weapon swap. The solution to 'bad weapons' is to fix the weapon. Case(s) in point ... any bad weapons engi had in the past hasn't resulted in Anet giving Engi a weapon swap then (and there has been some). It's still not a sensible reason for Anet to give Engi weapon swap now. 

But sure, pretend "Sbow = bad" is AT ALL related to "Engi needs weapon swap". GL with that. 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[lorddarkflare.9186]

Sure we can have weapon swap as long as we all accept the nasty nerfs that would come to all the kits.

I have always felt that Arena-Net should have given the class weapons swap, but with an extremely punishing cooldown based on the number of kits equipped. It would start at 12 for 0 kits, and go up by 8 secs for each kit. I still think that would still work, but the class is over 10 years old right now, and fundamentally changing it would be profoundly unfair. I think maybe hoping for similar functionality if Elite specs ever come back would be a better bet.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

They just need to make shortbow better and more multi functional since that seems like the main issue. Rework kits too (also maybe let us dye them). 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, Sbow being bad is a valid complaint ... just not in this thread. Engi getting a second weapon swap addresses SBow flaws? No it doesn't, because if the problem is "Sbow = bad", even if you have a second weapon, Sbow is still bad.  A BETTER solution ... just don't equip Sbow. Even if engi got a weapon swap, that STILL wouldn't be a compelling reason for people who think Sbow=bad to equip it., just like having a weapon swap isn't a compelling reason for ANY class that has it to equip a bad weapon. 

Again, having a bad weapon doesn't justify giving Engi weapon swap. The solution to 'bad weapons' is to fix the weapon. Case(s) in point ... any bad weapons engi had in the past hasn't resulted in Anet giving Engi a weapon swap then (and there has been some). It's still not a sensible reason for Anet to give Engi weapon swap now. 

But sure, pretend "Sbow = bad" is AT ALL related to "Engi needs weapon swap". GL with that. 

 

I think the logic is that with shortbow only being useful for support while being second-best even at that, it might actually see use if there was a swap so people could bring both?

Not that I agree with that, mind you. By the time all the rebalancing that came after that was over, you'd have to basically rebuild the profession from the ground up just for the sake of making shortbow see play at all. There are better options. Although I am concerned that the option chosen will be 'buff shortbow and/or nerf mace/shield so shortbow is objectively better', papering over the design flaws with bigger numbers.

Edited December 10, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[lorddarkflare.9186]

28 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the logic is that with shortbow only being useful for support while being second-best even at that, it might actually see use if there was a swap so people could bring both?

Not that I agree with that, mind you. By the time all the rebalancing that came after that was over, you'd have to basically rebuild the profession from the ground up just for the sake of making shortbow see play at all. There are better options. Although I am concerned that the option chosen will be 'buff shortbow and/or nerf mace/shield so shortbow is objectively better', papering over the design flaws with bigger numbers.

Bigger numbers go a long way. But yeah, there are fundamental issues no amount of buffs will improve.

Prime among those is how small the effect areas are and how long it takes to actually set the trap. As has been said before, this feels like an excellent rework for the bomb kit made as a weapon instead

[Sobx.1758]

48 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the logic is that with shortbow only being useful for support while being second-best even at that, it might actually see use if there was a swap so people could bring both?

Not that I agree with that, mind you. By the time all the rebalancing that came after that was over, you'd have to basically rebuild the profession from the ground up just for the sake of making shortbow see play at all. There are better options. Although I am concerned that the option chosen will be 'buff shortbow and/or nerf mace/shield so shortbow is objectively better', papering over the design flaws with bigger numbers.

Sure, lets pretend that someone wants weapon swap "because shortbow is bad" and when they'll get that weapon swap they won't just use.... two good weapons 🤦‍♂️

The issue with this argument is that it's not logical at all. It tries using singular -not even yet released- weapon someone deemed as "bad" in order to get a rather substantial -and still undeserved- class buff. So yes, without change that justification makes no sense. It's either not well thought out at all or straight up dishonest -and which one it is, I don't really care because what matters is that in the end it's an awfully irrelevant justification attempt to double dip on existing class mechanics.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sure, lets pretend that someone wants weapon swap "because shortbow is bad" and when they'll get that weapon swap they won't just use.... two good weapons 🤦‍♂️

The issue with this argument is that it's not logical at all. It tries using singular -not even yet released- weapon someone deemed as "bad" in order to get a rather substantial -and still undeserved- class buff. So yes, without change that justification makes no sense. It's either not well thought out at all or straight up dishonest -and which one it is, I don't really care because what matters is that in the end it's an awfully irrelevant justification attempt to double dip on existing class mechanics.

Oh, definitely. It's obvious that the result would be for the overwhelming majority of engineers to start running hammer+rifle for strike damage or pistols+mace for condition damage. You might get the odd support engineer running mace/shield+shortbow, but not enough that justifying the proposal for the sake of shortbow really makes sense. Especially given that the nerfs that would likely be coming to compensate for adding weaponswap would be likely to be painful for anyone who enjoys engineer as it currently plays.

[Kuma.1503]

Bigger numbers is a good solution. We just need to make the radius number bigger. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Doggie.3184]

On 6/28/2023 at 3:15 PM, jason.1083 said:

No Ele shouldn't get a weapon swap, I know it sounds unfair, but Elementalists have access to 4 weapon skill bars with 0 compermises to their utility bar, for each weapon skill bar we give up 1 utility slot, to even out with Ele we need pretty much all our utilities as kits.

So no, Elementalists don't deserve a second weapon set. They have enough skills as it is.

They could always just bring back GW1 Ele where every element could DPS and you choose your favorite to stick with 😛

Air: Focused Strike DPS.

Fire: Hybrid DPS, big AoE hits, longer Cooldowns.

Water: Fast casting AoE Strike DPS, low Cooldowns.

Earth: Condi DPS.

Pretty much how it was structured in GW1. No need for attunement swapping mid battle. (attunement swapping mechanic was actually my first disappointment around GW2 release cuz I liked being full Air Mage or Water Mage 😆)

Edited December 10, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Obtena.7952]

19 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the logic is that with shortbow only being useful for support while being second-best even at that, it might actually see use if there was a swap so people could bring both?

Not that I agree with that, mind you. By the time all the rebalancing that came after that was over, you'd have to basically rebuild the profession from the ground up just for the sake of making shortbow see play at all. There are better options. Although I am concerned that the option chosen will be 'buff shortbow and/or nerf mace/shield so shortbow is objectively better', papering over the design flaws with bigger numbers.

I get the logic of the proponents but it's flawed because the problem of bad weapons and kits isn't solved with being able to weapon swap; if we need proof (because some people are just that level), we have it because we can already swap into bad kits but that doesn't compel Engis to use them.

As already stated elsewhere, this reference to bad weapons/kits is just a ruse to get mechanics that increase Engi capabilities beyond the intended restrictions of the class. Some people think anything is a soapbox to complain about their specific issues. Often, it confuses some actual, legitimate concerns. 

Sbow is bad/redundant with existing supports?  I'm sure there is a thread already in process talking about it (and I'm sure that the person that made initial reference to the Sbow in this thread posted there as well). 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

They could always just bring back GW1 Ele where every element could DPS and you choose your favorite to stick with 😛

Air: Focused Strike DPS.

Fire: Hybrid DPS, big AoE hits, longer Cooldowns.

Water: Fast casting AoE Strike DPS, low Cooldowns.

Earth: Condi DPS.

Pretty much how it was structured in GW1. No need for attunement swapping mid battle. (attunement swapping mechanic was actually my first disappointment around GW2 release cuz I liked being full Air Mage or Water Mage 😆)

I think too much has already been invested in attunement swapping. Two attunement might be possible, which in principle at least would allow for more precisely defined themes, but I worry that would just reinforce already extant behaviour - most builds have two primary attunements and two that they only dip into for utility or to trigger cycle-through-everything effects as it is.

The big problem elementalist has, thematically, is that outside of healing and fresh air builds (and fresh air isn't running too hot nowadays), pretty much everything elementalist feels like you're basically running Fire Plus. Fire is virtually always the best DPS element, whether power or condi, while the second element is typically primarily used because swapping into it just manages to outperform fire camping.

Edited December 11, 2023 by draxynnic.3719