So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[DeathPanel.8362]

3 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

You said it yourself: they promised that legendary equipment will always be the pinnacle equipment.

Legendary runes are legendary, that is they promised will always be pinnacle.

Pinnacle for that equipment slot.  ANET never promised it wouldn't create another equipment slot.

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Pinnacle for that equipment slot.  ANET never promised it wouldn't create another equipment slot.

Cant wait for them to come with armor plates and sharpening stones for weapons and armor.

To get armor value and weapon damage numbers back mini expansion 2.

Then polishing and weapon oils to get stats back the expansion after that.

Edit

I guess you will then come with the excuse that well you can still switch skins for free so why are you complaining they never promised they would ever not change them.

And to keep it in  line with earlier ofcourse there will be a new slot for each of these 4 things and the oil/polishing can degrade so you need to reapply it every 30 minutes if they wish.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Linken.6345

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

Cant wait for them to come with armor plates and sharpening stones for weapons and armor.

To get armor value and weapon damage numbers back mini expansion 2.

Then polishing and weapon oils to get stats back the expansion after that.

Effects and stats can get shifted in MMO rebalance patches.  Welcome to every MMO ever made.

[Linken.6345]

4 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Effects and stats can get shifted in MMO rebalance patches.  Welcome to every MMO ever made.

this is kinda diffrent then that tho they are taking a chunk from you  to then have you regain the same chunk in another slot.

They could have taken the new tier 6 rune stat and put it on the relic.

People would still have complained since they are just power creeping for the sake of power creeping then but it would have been less of a backlash.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Linken.6345

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

this is kinda diffrent then that tho they are taking a chunk from you  to then have you regain the same chunk in another slot.

They could have taken the new tier 6 rune stat and put it on the relic.

People would still have complained since they are just power creeping for the sake of power creeping then but it would have been less of a backlash.

No, it's not.  Shifting stats and effects in rebalance patches is a norm in MMOs.

There are always people that complain about every change in MMOs.  That's another norm.

[Wolfyno.2704]

3 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

No, it's not.  Shifting stats and effects in rebalance patches is a norm in MMOs.

There are always people that complain about every change in MMOs.  That's another norm.

And I would argue that they are right to do so. Every player has certain expectations from a game he is investing time, money and energy in. Even more so, since quite many of the changes that happen in the mmo genre turned out to be not so good changes for the player base.

All changes are subject to criticism, but it comes down to few points to sell it and calm the worries of the community, especially one such the rune downgrade system and relic implementation: Is it really needed? why? what are the pros and cons of the change?

My personal opinion: not at all, it brings nothing new to the table. We are actually losing an already acquired and unlocked QoL Just for an "artificial" extension to the grind.

There quite many alternative systems they could have chosen. Closest one, have relic modify the 6th rune effect in a rune set. We use a Scholar rune set  and instead of getting the 5% damage increase as an effect, we may use the Relic to override that effect and instead get the effect  of another rune, if you choose so. THAT would have opened a flexibility door without affecting the rest of us.

And so far, the replies we were provided were devoid of any selling point or any point for that matter, especially to the scale of "damage" it will do to the player base builds.

 

9 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Apparently, my stating that one shouldn't have expectations of something that was never promised to them is now setting a "dangerous precedent".  Now I've heard it all.

I would love to hear your opinion on the matter, after you finish reading the rest of my post.

I stand by my opinion, this is a dangerous precedent in the GW2 patching history. We all agree that mmos are an everchanging environment, full of changes but there are some some core systems in each mmo that are left untouched, or barely modified and only improved, and the legendary-achievement system is such a system. Afaik, only once was modified and that was during the legendary armory implementation. It had its pros and had its cons, for some high end hardcore players, but it still had quite the selling point in QoL department and turned out to be defining point for the GW2 in the whole genre. Which is different this time.

As a finishing note, "this is an mmo, expect and accept any change that happens" "they can do whatever they want, because they can" "you should not have expectations" "they did not promise anything", "the sun god put them in Anet to make choices for us common mortals" these are not constructive argumentative points, if anything, they hurt the discussion, else we wouldn't need forums for feedback to begin with.

I also believe quite many in Anet disagree with the change and need support and proofs to offer management on how bad this change affect the game and search for alternative solutions or implementations.

[Sigmoid.7082]

12 minutes ago, Wolfyno.2704 said:

I also believe quite many in Anet disagree with the change and need support and proofs to offer management on how bad this change affect the game and search for alternative solutions or implementations.

I haven't seen anything that would suggest internally that there are people that think this is a bad idea. Also its likely far too late for "alternative solutions or methods" due to how development and deployment works. With such a large fundamental change and how close the expac is its near certain the work is already completely done and in the release build for the expac and with what we know about their release schedule its not going anywhere.

My personal opinion on the matter is that, by and large, this is an overall good change. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Sigmoid.7082

[DeathPanel.8362]

12 minutes ago, Wolfyno.2704 said:

My personal opinion: not at all, it brings nothing new to the table. We are actually losing an already acquired and unlocked QoL Just for an "artificial" extension to the grind.

The increased flexibility in builds from untying runes from the special effect by shifting them to relics is the new thing to the table.

Edited July 8, 2023 by DeathPanel.8362
better wording

[DeathPanel.8362]

20 minutes ago, Wolfyno.2704 said:

As a finishing note, "this is an mmo, expect and accept any change that happens" "they can do whatever they want, because they can" "you should not have expectations" "they did not promise anything", "the sun god put them in Anet to make choices for us common mortals" these are not constructive argumentative points, if anything, they hurt the discussion, else we wouldn't need forums for feedback to begin with.

The point is it's not reasonable to expect something that wasn't promised and then be disgruntled when that thing that was never promised didn't happen.

[DeathPanel.8362]

19 hours ago, Torvis.1365 said:

I never bought a rune, i bought a package consiting of
- QoL
- RuneStats
- RuneBonus (if 6+)
- LegendaryPromise by Anet

That was the status quo at that time.
Now they redefine what is a rune.

I bought a fully functional car, all fine. Then they remotely deactivate the engine, and they want to sell another one? You can still sit in your car? Really? Absurd! Package is broken.

What is next?

Three accounts here, playing with family. Everything on hold until clarification.

-QOL related to runes.

-No one ever promised rune stats were set in stone.

-No one ever promised Rune Bonus was set in stone.

-Legendary Promise was related to runes, not any other gear slot that they may implement in the future.

The car analogy is wrong.  You didn't purchase anything physical.  You subscribed to an online service. (MMO)  Online services are ongoing and subject to change.  It's literally in the ANET EULA that they reserve the right to make changes as they see fit.  YOU SIGNED IT when you created the account.

[Ashen.2907]

12 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The point is it's not reasonable to expect something that wasn't promised and then be disgruntled when that thing that was never promised didn't happen.

Its not reasonable to take something that one paid for away from them and not expect them to be disgruntled.

[DeathPanel.8362]

52 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Its not reasonable to take something that one paid for away from them and not expect them to be disgruntled.

Your character, runes, and gear, are all part of the online service to which you are a subscriber, and you agreed through the EULA that ANET reserves the right to make changes at will to this service.  The only things you actually paid for are cash shop items and none of those items were taken away from you.  

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

So the runes will gain stats in the 6 rune bonus... cool. Looking forward to the extra stats.

Then I'll have to craft relics for 72 characters... some of them with 8 sets of gear... so I'll need something like 200-300 relics... 

I really hope I'll get more than 1 relic out of the selection box... lol

Joys of gear changes. Just hope I don't need to go back into dungeons for certain relic bonuses that I already spent dungeon currency for. /shrug. Maybe I'll just go without relics for awhile....

[Ashen.2907]

5 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The only things you actually paid for are cash shop items and none of those items were taken away from you.  

Does one pay for access or not? You are contradicting yourself.

If one provides anet payment, and I can assure you that ANet accepts payment, in order to get something...then by definition one has paid for that thing. ANet may, and does, reserve the right to remove that paid for thing at their discretion....but that does not make it inappropriate for a player to be disgruntled if something they paid for is removed from them. obviously we agreed to an EULA (which may or may not be enforceable in some US states) but I (and others) am not speaking of legal action, merely satisfaction with a product and whether or not we are willing to continue spending money on it in the aftermath of a company decision that impacts that satisfaction.

Personally, for the first time since GW1, I am not preordering, not buying the highest end version of an expansion, and may not be spending money with the company going forward. I cannot speak for others, and I know that I am only one player, but thats $10k per year off the table for ANet.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[DeathPanel.8362]

7 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Does one pay for access or not? You are contradicting yourself.

If one provides anet payment, and I can assure you that ANet accepts payment, in order to get something...then by definition one has paid for that thing. ANet may, and does, reserve the right to remove that paid for thing at their discretion....but that does not make it inappropriate for a player to be disgruntled if something they paid for is removed from them. obviously we agreed to an EULA (which may or may not be enforceable in some US states) but I (and others) am not speaking of legal action, merely satisfaction with a product and whether or not we are willing to continue spending money on it in the aftermath of a company decision that impacts that satisfaction.

Personally, for the first time since GW1, I am not preordering, not buying the highest end version of an expansion, and may not be spending money with the company going forward. I cannot speak for others, and I know that I am only one player, but thats $10k per year off the table for ANet.

You didn't pay for access to the base game.  You paid for cash shop items and access to expansion content.  Neither your cash shop items nor your expansion content are getting removed.  How hard is this to understand?

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You didn't pay for access to the base game. 

Weird, my bank account information from back in 2012 says otherwise.  How do you explain my ability to play the base game for years before it went free to play?

[fable spirt.8465]

I remember when they removed, changed a lot of runes and sigils back when they changed magic find. Also, all the runes and sigils they added with every expansion. with the relic system I will be able to fix my runes (yes, I have all legendary runes.) I currently run rune of the thief due to the bonus for team play on my Spellbreaker. With the relic system I can get that bonus and run 6 runes that work better with my power build.

[Ashen.2907]

3 minutes ago, fable spirt.8465 said:

I remember when they removed, changed a lot of runes and sigils back when they changed magic find. Also, all the runes and sigils they added with every expansion. with the relic system I will be able to fix my runes (yes, I have all legendary runes.) I currently run rune of the thief due to the bonus for team play on my Spellbreaker. With the relic system I can get that bonus and run 6 runes that work better with my power build.

Keep in mind that the example they gave shows a nerf for the relic bonus for thief runes. Probably more than made up for by being able to combine with power stats, but the 6th tier bonus will be less than half as effective.

[fable spirt.8465]

3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Keep in mind that the example they gave shows a nerf for the relic bonus for thief runes. Probably more than made up for by being able to combine with power stats, but the 6th tier bonus will be less than half as effective.

I'm ok with that, All I know is there are a lot of runes that do the same thing, and the only difference is that 6th tier bonus. This will reduce the number of useless runes or at least repurpose them and add more build crafting.

[DeathPanel.8362]

17 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Weird, my bank account information from back in 2012 says otherwise.  How do you explain my ability to play the base game for years before it went free to play?

You're nitpicking over trivialities.  The point is it's free to play now.  If anything that supports my point that the online service is subject to change. 

In fact, I'm going to revise my old statements because I realize they haven't gone far enough.  There was never a promise that anything you even paid for in GW2 is guaranteed to remain the same or stay.  One day GW2 will shut down and nothing you paid for will remain.

So when ANET makes modifications or shifts things around it isn't "taking away" anything from you.   You own nothing in GW2. 

[fable spirt.8465]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You're nitpicking over trivialities.  The point is it's free to play now.  If anything that supports my point that the online service is subject to change. 

In fact, I'm going to revise my old statements because I realize they haven't gone far enough.  There was never a promise that anything you even paid for in GW2 is guaranteed to remain the same or stay.  One day GW2 will shut down and nothing you paid for will remain.

So when ANET makes modifications or shifts things around it isn't "taking away" anything from you.   You own nothing in GW2. 

Correct, you are just renting the right to use the property they own. If anything warrior mains should be mad more then any class as they were marketed as a weapons master and now almost all weapons are given to every class, but back to runes and their uses.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

19 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Its not reasonable to take something that one paid for away from them and not expect them to be disgruntled.

They aren’t taking anything away from anyone.

Function of Legendary runes is to select any Superior Rune at anytime without cost of purchasing extractors, new runes, and having access to all future runes.

current Legendary Runes can select any rune

After SotO release Legendary Runes can select any rune 

zero things were taken from people with legendary runes

[Archenblade.3405]

This provides more build flexibility and from my understanding is a change that will be rolled out for everyone. This faffing about not being able to put a golem peak on a different kind of rune because "oh no, I would have to earn a new thing" If you actually play the game, that isn't a big deal. And if I wind up spending 15 gold on a scholar relic that I can now use with my rune of the golemancer? HUGE ferocity. I would think that could be a fun or interesting build.

It is a gift if you can see past your desire not to play.

[Sugar Min.5834]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:12 AM, Buran.3796 said:

   .....

    I'm really surprised of the course this ship is taking...

... straight into the Iceberg just like Titanic . ANet forgot about what happened when they introduced ascended gears or maybe those that remember are no longer with the company or perhaps the new team think it's okay now after all these years. Good luck 🙈

Edited July 11, 2023 by Min Min.9368

[Astralporing.1957]

On 7/8/2023 at 4:38 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Pinnacle for that equipment slot.  ANET never promised it wouldn't create another equipment slot.

When you are reading through a legalese document, you are wise to assume there are loopholes in there, and that the other side may kitten you over if you won't read carefully. There's no place left for trust in this at all. By claiming that we should fully expect Anet to kitten us over due to things they never explicitly promised not to do (but we reasonably assumed they won't, based on spirit of what they said) you say that we should treat them as antagonist and never trust them in the slightest. This is completely fine - apart from the fact that if players will no longer trust developers not to kitten them over the moment they blink, this game is as good as over.