So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You are sent one free selectable relic box at release so just choose that and problem solved.

What about the other 2 builds on that guardian or the 3-8 builds on their other up to 73 characters?

[DeathPanel.8362]

49 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

What about the other 2 builds on that guardian or the 3-8 builds on their other up to 73 characters?

How much of the player base has 73 characters and multiple builds for each of them?  That's a ridiculous hypothetical.  Such a fringe case isn't relevant when it comes to making general balancing decisions.  

[Graymatter.4723]

3 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

They absolutely removed and changed stats on runes in the past.  They're simply providing a way to offset that in a different gear slot whereas they didn't in the past.  You're literally better off.

A point of clarification, the game isn't yours.  It's ANET's.  Your analogy is totally incorrect. 

It's like an amusement park.  Nothing in it belongs to you.  You merely paid the ticket for admission.  The owners get to modify, close down, or restrict how people take the rides in this amusement park at their discretion.  They aren't taking anything away from you.  You never had it to begin with.  Your only choice is to pay for the ticket to enter to play or not.

You are still completely missing the point. Up till now, my legendary armor, runes, sigils, and weapons gave me the ability to create any build in the game without going and buying/farming/crafting anything else. I put a lot of time, effort, gold, and money into making it like that. Right now I can do that on any new characters I create and for any new equipment templates and build templates that I buy. That will no longer be the case. This isn't like a nerf. It's a change that removes something that I worked for.

As I have said before. Unlike some of the people, I have no issue going off and creating a legendary relic. Doing collections, etc., and crafting one. But that option should be available at launch. Otherwise I am in a worse position than I was before the expansion. I buy all expansions at release and just bought the ultimate version of the latest one. I do the same thing for my kids. I believe in strongly supporting A/Net, but that is a two way street. I won't be happy if there isn't an option for a legendary relic. I don't care if they give me 1 relic box or 100 of them because of my legendary runes. That's missing the point. I created all of my legendary stuff because of the QoL benefits of it. I have argued strongly for open world legendary armor for exactly that reason. The benefits of legendary stuff should be available to everyone. I don't want to be forced to run 10 fractals, 3 strikes, and spend an hour in WvW to get a relic so I can test out a build from SC or HardStuck. I don't want to fill up half my bank with relics so I can test various options. And, I certainly don't want to get into a bidding match with Trading Post whales for relics.

[Ashen.2907]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:14 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

How much of the player base has 73 characters and multiple builds for each of them?  That's a ridiculous hypothetical.  Such a fringe case isn't relevant when it comes to making general balancing decisions.  

The case is relevant because ANet sold the player those character slots and equipment templates. 

This isnt a general balancing decision. Its a monetization decision. ANet had the option to implement this without adversely impacting existing set ups....and chose not to.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

How much of the player base has 73 characters and multiple builds for each of them?  That's a ridiculous hypothetical.  Such a fringe case isn't relevant when it comes to making general balancing decisions.  

I have 50 characters. Maybe not 73, but it is my main motivation for filling out the legendary armory. Now, not all of them are maxed but I easily have 40+ builds that will need completing again after the change. Even without considering legendary runes and relics (which currently solves all equipping alts problems), it sounds like I'm going to have to go back and redo so many hours of work because of this change. I don't mind putting in the time or effort. I will resent having to put it in again just to get back to where I am now. 

And that's aside from any time actually put into exploring and enjoying the new content.

Edited July 1, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[luigiormario.7305]

8 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Source?

Legendary runes were supposed to be a one off.

My point was moreso that balance changes and other updates affect things far more regularly, not trying to say literally that absolutely nothing will change with relics or runes ever again. Until they're actually implemented on release everything remains speculation. 

[Ashen.2907]

7 minutes ago, luigiormario.7305 said:

My point was moreso that balance changes and other updates affect things far more regularly, not trying to say literally that absolutely nothing will change with relics or runes ever again. Until they're actually implemented on release everything remains speculation. 

I suppose my point is that once ANet backtracks on what legendary tier was always pitched to represent for a type of gear we can no longer assume that they won't do the same again. Your integrity can not be taken away from you, but you can give it up (you in the general sense, not you personally). Once you do so anything you say from then on is suspect.

[luigiormario.7305]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I suppose my point is that once ANet backtracks on what legendary tier was always pitched to represent for a type of gear we can no longer assume that they won't do the same again. Your integrity can not be taken away from you, but you can give it up (you in the general sense, not you personally). Once you do so anything you say from then on is suspect.

As someone with 7 legendary runes the fact they had to come out and say they are looking at 'compensation' for legendary holders made it sound as though it hadn't been fully thought out I have to say. I am withholding personal judgement until they announce what those plans are. The feedback is important so hopefully Anet will compensate accordingly so most of these complaints are resolved. 

But to me calling this vertical progression and pay to win is just plain wrong - you only have to look at any other aspect of the game that changes and incurs some form of investment from the player as a result. Keeping in mind that the majority of players are not full legendary too. 

[Ashen.2907]

10 minutes ago, luigiormario.7305 said:

As someone with 7 legendary runes the fact they had to come out and say they are looking at 'compensation' for legendary holders made it sound as though it hadn't been fully thought out I have to say. I am withholding personal judgement until they announce what those plans are. The feedback is important so hopefully Anet will compensate accordingly so most of these complaints are resolved. 

But to me calling this vertical progression and pay to win is just plain wrong - you only have to look at any other aspect of the game that changes and incurs some form of investment from the player as a result. Keeping in mind that the majority of players are not full legendary too. 

I do not think this is pay to win.

It introduces a new type of gear that grants increased power over your character's state prior to earning it. That is, by definition, vertical progression.

Personally I suspect that they did think the system through prior to the announcement. They just misjudged the possibility of backlash. 

[luigiormario.7305]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I do not think this is pay to win.

It introduces a new type of gear that grants increased power over your character's state prior to earning it. That is, by definition, vertical progression.

Personally I suspect that they did think the system through prior to the announcement. They just misjudged the possibility of backlash. 

By definition perhaps, but so were jade bot cores. Very little content in the game requires you to have a perfect build to clear, and even then if you know your class/rotation it's non issue. Infusions are another example of vertical progression- something that most can't afford but gives increased power. Unless relics will actually be progression-blocking which I am inclined to doubt. 

For me I just see it as a nice to have, opens up more build options etc. As opposed to oh no I need one to clear content. 

And yes, Anet to seem to misjudge backlash fairly frequently XD

[Ashen.2907]

18 minutes ago, luigiormario.7305 said:

By definition perhaps, but so were jade bot cores. Very little content in the game requires you to have a perfect build to clear, and even then if you know your class/rotation it's non issue. Infusions are another example of vertical progression- something that most can't afford but gives increased power. Unless relics will actually be progression-blocking which I am inclined to doubt. 

For me I just see it as a nice to have, opens up more build options etc. As opposed to oh no I need one to clear content. 

And yes, Anet to seem to misjudge backlash fairly frequently XD

Yes, as you describe, there has been vertical progression in the past. I doubt that any content will be gated behimd the new higher character output numbers, but that doesn't make this system not vertical progression. Personally I find the power creep of the system, in a game where power creep is already rampant, to be more of a concern than the vertical progression aspect. In a game where the performamce gap between high end players/builds and average or casual builds is already massive, adding a system that has the potential to widen it even further is another concern (to me at least).

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 hours ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

You are still completely missing the point. Up till now, my legendary armor, runes, sigils, and weapons gave me the ability to create any build in the game without going and buying/farming/crafting anything else. I put a lot of time, effort, gold, and money into making it like that. Right now I can do that on any new characters I create and for any new equipment templates and build templates that I buy. That will no longer be the case. This isn't like a nerf. It's a change that removes something that I worked for.

No, you are still completely missing the point. 

*No promises were made to you by ANET that you won't spend currency ever again on ANYTHING, just nothing more on runes which still holds true. 

*No promises were made to you by ANET that they won't ever modify runes or remove effects from them.

*No promises were made to you by ANET that they won't ever create a new equipment slot that just so happens to have the effects removed from said runes.

You have expectations of things that were never promised.  How hard is this to understand?

 

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I have 50 characters. Maybe not 73, but it is my main motivation for filling out the legendary armory. Now, not all of them are maxed but I easily have 40+ builds that will need completing again after the change. Even without considering legendary runes and relics (which currently solves all equipping alts problems), it sounds like I'm going to have to go back and redo so many hours of work because of this change. I don't mind putting in the time or effort. I will resent having to put it in again just to get back to where I am now. 

And that's aside from any time actually put into exploring and enjoying the new content.

Again, you don't remotely represent the vast majority of the player base.  Making design and balance decisions that effects everyone around fringe cases like yours is not reasonable.  You'll just have to make adjustments.  I have 32 characters.  I'm perfectly fine making the adjustments necessary.  I'll only be annoyed if it turns out that relics are prohibitively expensive but it's not a deal breaker.

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Again, you don't remotely represent the vast majority of the player base.  Making design and balance decisions that effects everyone around fringe cases like yours is not reasonable. 

It is perfectly reasonable because ANet created that supposed fringe. They decided that x number of character slots and/or build tabs were appropriate.

[Graymatter.4723]

17 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

No, you are still completely missing the point. 

*No promises were made to you by ANET that you won't spend currency ever again on ANYTHING, just nothing more on runes which still holds true. 

*No promises were made to you by ANET that they won't ever modify runes or remove effects from them.

*No promises were made to you by ANET that they won't ever create a new equipment slot that just so happens to have the effects removed from said runes.

You have expectations of things that were never promised.  How hard is this to understand?

That's an asinine argument. No promises were made by A/Net to you that Guardians wouldn't be deleted from the game. Would that be acceptable? No promises were made by A.Net that they wouldn't delete skins from players after they have paid for them. Would that be acceptable? Maybe it would be ok for you if they started deleting characters that haven't been played in a week. I am pretty sure that they didn't promise that either.

Of course A/Net didn't make any promises but there is a lot of other things that they never promised either. Removing stuff is never acceptable.

[Dante.1508]

20 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

This is just nonsense 

I disagree.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Dante.1508

[suialthor.7164]

4 hours ago, luigiormario.7305 said:

the fact they had to come out and say they are looking at 'compensation' for legendary holders made it sound as though it hadn't been fully thought out 

That or they knew what to expect and hoped everyone would exhaust themselves arguing over the long weekend.  

[Archguardian.9278]

I don't believe this will be pay to win any more than the game "already is."

Overall I really like the introduction of the relic.  It allows for much more customization, allowing players to play and have the types of builds they want.  I use a few runes specifically for the 6th bonus, though the other stats don't really mean much to me.  With this I can have meaningful stats and my niche bonus.  Very much hoping for legendary relics on release. Thanks Anet for letting people play the way they want to play. 🙂

[Gibson.4036]

At a hypothetical “trivial” cost of 10g/relic, that’s 120g + freebie box for the 13 builds I have across my characters.

120g may be a trivial amount for some of you to get back what you already had. It’s a pretty hefty tax for me.

 

[Gibson.4036]

All the talk of “promises” and “own” vs theme park admission is fine if you’re talking legally.

But if you’re talking the confidence that keeps people playing, that’s all irrelevant. Make people feel like they’re rolling Sysiphus’ rock and it will impact the game. MMOs live on disguising the treadmill, which is why “balance updates” that make us rework gear are not received as poorly as “you had this benefit yesterday, but not you need a new item to get it back.”

[DeathPanel.8362]

21 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It is perfectly reasonable because ANet created that supposed fringe. They decided that x number of character slots and/or build tabs were appropriate.

Wrong.  They gave you 5 character slots by default in a paid account.  You have the option to get up to 69 character slots which are behind a paywall.  It wouldn't be behind a paywall if ANET actually expected you to go up to 69 characters.

 
YOU are the one that made yourself the fringe case.  Blaming ANET for that is asinine. 

[Buran.3796]

7 hours ago, Archguardian.9278 said:

I don't believe this will be pay to win any more than the game "already is."

Overall I really like the introduction of the relic.  It allows for much more customization, allowing players to play and have the types of builds they want.  I use a few runes specifically for the 6th bonus, though the other stats don't really mean much to me.  With this I can have meaningful stats and my niche bonus.  Very much hoping for legendary relics on release. Thanks Anet for letting people play the way they want to play. 🙂

   That's bs.

   Before EoD Masteries were shared across all characters, once unlocked every alt instantly gained access to those abilities. Then in EoD Anet locked the bot, squif and fishing masteries to the personal story, so if you complete EoD with a character, only that one gains access to the skills. The afternath? I finished the story with my main, and none of my 17 alts, and none of them can use the unlocked EoD masteries (and they won't, due I won't repeat the story mode).

   This is similar: a relevant number of my alts already upgraded from Traveler runes to Fireworks, since the final effects are nicer, and playing without the extra mobility stinks...   After the inclusion of the Relics I'll just stop playing alts without +25% movement, due I don't want to play snails, and I won't pay again for a qol which already bought.

   As Teapot said more than once "a game as a service tries to not give you much qol so they can sell you the convenience", and that works until the obstacles remove the fun and you no longer want to play the game. Relics are a step in that direction. Good luck with that.

[DeathPanel.8362]

7 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

All the talk of “promises” and “own” vs theme park admission is fine if you’re talking legally.

He was the one that made the legal comparison to theft to being with.  I merely followed his logic to its conclusion.

 

21 hours ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

That's an asinine argument. No promises were made by A/Net to you that Guardians wouldn't be deleted from the game. Would that be acceptable?

Yes, it would be.  ANET can stop the game tomorrow and the game would be over.  It's an MMO.  No promises were made to you that nothing would change or that everything will stick around forever.  Every single balance patch takes away things and adds things to other places.  This is literally how all MMOs work.  Your argument is ridiculous.

[Ashen.2907]

2 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Wrong.  They gave you 5 character slots by default in a paid account.  You have the option to get up to 69 character slots which are behind a paywall.  It wouldn't be behind a paywall if ANET actually expected you to go up to 69 characters.

 
YOU are the one that made yourself the fringe case.  Blaming ANET for that is asinine. 

Claiming that I blamed ANet for this asinine. There is no blame to be had in them selling a product to someone who wishes to buy it. That said, you are 100% correct that ANet sold additional character slots, wanted people to buy them, wouldn't have put the effort into making them purchasable if they didnt expect anyone to buy them, and so should take those people into consideration when implementing changes that interact with something they sold.

Again, there may be blame for some things going on, but selling a product to willing customers is not one of them.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

Claiming that I blamed ANet for this asinine.

You literally blamed ANET for creating that fringe that you belong to.  

21 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It is perfectly reasonable because ANet created that supposed fringe.