June 27 Balance Follow-Ups

[oCynder.5136]

I see nothing about anything related to quickness application with scrapper. Are you really making this quick scrapper unfun? Playing as DPS Quickscrapper just bad. Why tie quick to combo blast? Every other class can apply the essential boon much faster than a scrapper. If we have to spend 2 skills to blast, what's the point of this? Waste 2 skills to preboon. Waste 2 skills to provide quick when nothing's going on? What's the idea here? Make it a clunky mess?

I looked at the alacrity boon application for Druid. It's a mess. It's clunky. It doesn't feel great. And yet y'all decide to buff the duration of it by a tiny amount? It doesn't feel fluid from watching others play it.

Honestly, y'all should just revert and go back to the drawing board. Share ideas or listen to the community on actual issues rather ignoring it. Playstyle should feel more fluid whether it is boons application, dps, heal, etc. It shouldn't be a HOT mess. It shouldn't break the fluidity of rotations or how the class feels. I'm still disappointed that not much has been done even after the follow-up notes.

[Crosis.7140]

Shade duration? And signet too!

If you afaid of scg can give alac more that 5 target just put alac on  Sand Savant.  (Because you can only put one big shade with 5 target so this should solve your concern.) And revert desert empowerment to original state. Again SHADE DURATION!!

[Zilel.4190]

Please make the scepter and shroud boons from Specter 5 man equally and the same duration for the entire sub if possible. I understand the heals and barrier from scepter and shroud being higher on the allied target and lower on those around the target, this alone retains the identity of hyper focusing 1 individual more than others, but the boons should really be simple and 5 man. Simplicity is best. I've gone more in depth on Heal Specter feedback here.

[RasSativa.5109]

These changes to scourge will have a dps the same or better then previous benchmark. Since the burning and torment has even a higher dmg scaling. The torch cd are lowered without the trait. With current patch dps scourge is around 32 kdps for me

Alac scourge will have higher dps and easier alac uptime. Now i can have full alac uptime with 50% boon duration. Dps on my alac build was around 24 kdps

Alac heal scourge will be even more off a beast. In current patch i tanked Soulles Horrow on alac HsCG and was able to do 5,2k barrier on avg and a healing off 3k (swapped out the vamparic trait for extra healing upon exiting shroud). Now we can even give protection wich will be great. It was the only defensive boon missing.

The build will become overall less spammy and you gonna need 1 shade up for goot dos and can spam 3 shades for bursts.

Scourge will be just fine or better then before. It will play different wich doesn’t mean its bad.

[Acheron.1580]

If the devs have actually read through all of the discussion from the last preview as well as this one then I'm disappointed at how much you can read without actually understanding what people are upset about. I know the argument wasn't necessarily less spamming of skills but less reliance on forced utilities for providing buffs, but I'm amazed at how clunky the classes feel. Druid has trouble keeping up alac, might, and prot, and the new spirits are pretty awful. Nothing was considered for how the changes would impact the class as a whole. And there's even more button spamming and less utility than before.

And then, my favorite joke, is talking about how it's not good that alac willbender depends on targets to provide alac and glossing entirely over:

Alac Chronomancer, Quick Chronomancer, Alac Bladesworn, Quick Berserker, Quick Untamed, Quick Deadeye. You can't even be consistent in the same preview. And honestly, there was feedback in the previous preview that talked specifically about the chronomancer issues directly so you can't even say that you just hadn't considered it, unless of course you didn't actually read it.

[AlchemistRai.7596]

50 minutes ago, BenaSPACE.6028 said:

I feel like most of these changes are good, and even scourge looks like it's gonna be a bit better, but I feel that druid is still in a bad place. It still has the same problem of needing to use its big class feature to keep up alacrity-- One that it shouldn't be using off of cooldown, because it rigidly locks druid into a place it needn't be.

I still standby a fix I posted earlier that made Celestial Avatar work more like how Harbinger offers its quickness-- Just pulsing casually, with a few extra things that up boon time-- While also being able to come in and out of its respective mode shift regardless of the resource it has (and even offering a slight boost to help it do its job as a boon production).

The scourge changes don't address the original problem of revives being scourges only thing they had and the res nerfs being too much. like i understand lowering the res power some but 70% to 20% is buck wild.

oh and them making the traits count as if you have 3 doesn't fix the spam problem that would have not been there if they listened tot he community and just put alac generation on sand savant

[BadLuck.8456]

Thank you for responding and giving us a preview to your thoughts on the future patch. Some really great stuff in there but I want to discuss scourge.

First, the numbers changes seem good. I think I might prefer 2 seconds alac on desert empowerment but I'm willing to give 1.5 a shot. I'm hoping the new changes will also bring up dps scourge damage closer to other meta dps picks. Protection on sandstorm shroud helps heal scourge be more meta. Very cool.

With the changes to scourge's minor traits it seems like the design moving forward is for scourge to have one shade.

You can "burst" out all your shades but it would then take (napkin math) 8s CD x 2 shade charges x .75 for alacrity = 12 seconds. With alac we gain 2 seconds of buffer to recharge assuming we cast a shade every 8 seconds to maintain 1 up at all times (needed for alac). 12s buffer to refill / 2s buffer fill x 8 seconds between buffer fills = 48 seconds in between shade "bursts" if we play perfectly. And why would we ever use this burst? 3 extra base seconds of alac? Or dps alac scourge may need it to keep one shade on the group and put a shade on the boss but hopefully not needed for more than 8-16 seconds. And hopefully the boss or group doesn't need to move. Before, more shades were used to influence more area. A shade could be kept on a distant enemy or ally to offer reduced damage/support. That's pretty much gone with the previous patch except potentially for 8 seconds (6 after shade casts are complete) every 48 seconds.

All this to say, multiple shades seems dead in the water. That's fine if that's the design you want to go with, but then why allow multiple shades at all?

Additionally, 180 area on the shade is pretty small. This used to be because you'd have 3 up at all times to control 540 area. I'm glad the barrier on shade summon is bigger than 180 but the follow up cascade and shroud are not. So we need to keep the group gathered in a 180 area and resummon a shade on every move. Summoning on moves wasn't as big a deal before because you could save up charges because you didn't need to spend them every 8 seconds. Even if you had a bad set of circumstances and needed to use all 3 charges moving, you could recover in 16 seconds if your group could sit on the last shade and you could let all your shade recharge go into refilling that buffer. Now recovery would take 48 seconds assuming you get to use just one shade charge every 8 seconds.

So the above is an attempt to explain mechanically why the duration is such a huge nerf. I know we can't have 10 man alacrity but we also can't have this pseudo one shade design. As others have said, moving alac to a wvw target capped sand savant would work. Making sand savant area baseline would at least help. Also sand savant is a dead trait now. It doesn't provide enough value to be taken, certainly not as a GM trait.

Now to more wishy washy less concrete stuff. QoL on shades now is pretty bad. Summoning shades in the first place always felt like just preparing an area for things you would do later. The impact of pressing that summon button is very low. Now we have to prepare our area over and over again. Barrier on shade summon at least gives the summoning itself some value, but it's mostly for the alacrity provided and maintaining minor trait passives. I feel like we should be minimizing the amount of shade summoning required as much as possible but the last patch did the opposite. Again, I understand why, but as it is shade plays more like a weaker and more annoying version of ventari tablet.

So please consider finding some way to give shades a larger duration. Possibly shade restrictions should only apply while giving alac if 10 man alac is the concern. If not I really think the entire shade interaction for scourge will need major changes if it can't be allowed to operate as it was initially designed.

Thank you for reading.

[missing.2148]

I just wanted to give positive feedback on Elementalist: I absolutely LOVE the changes to Written in Stone to grant an aura!!  This was everything i wanted and combined with offhand dagger enhancments, feels like a blast to play.    

Thanks!!  

 

(just a pure casual player, not going for raids or charts or anything like that.)

Edited June 30, 2023 by missing.2148

[Trigg.9402]

HAHAHAHA, this is the update to the horrid balance patch?? 

@Cal Cohen.2358 "We HeArD yOuR fEeDbAcK..."

NO. YOU. DIDN'T.

If you heard our feedback, your response wouldn't be to just "tweak numbers", do a little reshuffling here and there and call it good.  

It's nice to know that you completely ignored the community's feedback and are making changes how you see fit. What a joke of balance lead and team.

Good luck because you're going to need it when the summer expansion sales plummet and Anet looks for a scapegoat to axe. 

[ericpeggy.8206]

Can you explain why we can have 3 shades but only can maintain 1 shade?

I'm very disappointed because you just do a very little fix and try to understate what you did.

[Bunny.9834]

They heard the feedback. 

They also ignored it. 

 

GG

[Mike.7983]

Def agree with the above 2 comments, this balance patch was a catastrophic fail and it's causing a lot to lose faith in devs now.  Really need an emergency roll back to pre June 27 and look into alternate smaller adjustments.

[inoke.3546]

Anet, have you thought about doing the occasional beta slot for upcoming balance patches to make sure you don't over buff or nerf a class or ability too much? It might let you catch things like the Spellbreaker and Rev bugs with the last patch if you let the community play with it even for a day. You wouldn't even have to include all the changes, just perhaps "Play Alac scourge on this weekend" before bringing on that change into the actual gameplay.

Just a thought.

Edited June 30, 2023 by inoke.3546

[Merloin.4816]

56 minutes ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Alac Chronomancer, Quick Chronomancer, Alac Bladesworn, Quick Berserker, Quick Untamed, Quick Deadeye. You can't even be consistent in the same preview. And honestly, there was feedback in the previous preview that talked specifically about the chronomancer issues directly so you can't even say that you just hadn't considered it, unless of course you didn't actually read it.

There is also qCata who can't give might, fury and other boons without an enemy to hit, let alone quickness. It is a nice topping of the cake baked with "You can't gain energy while you have an active field"

[Baseraver.7241]

Power DPS Berserker for PvE:

Axe/Axe: 38,7k DPS
Axe/Axe + GS: 39,4k DPS

So far

Edited June 30, 2023 by Baseraver.7241

[hash.8462]

Quote

Axes of Symmetry: Also inflicts cripple

Is this a typo and was intended for Imaginary Axes (the axe ambush)?

If so, it really suck 😞 since axe is melee give at least the protection that Mirage Mantle was giving.

[Venomstrike.3704]

9 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Druid 

Druid is in a similar situation to scourge in that we were overly conservative with its alacrity, so it is also getting an increase to its base duration. We’ve also seen feedback regarding druid’s might generation, and we’re bumping up both the stacks and duration on Spirited Arrival to address this.

• Grace of the Land: Increased alacrity duration from 0.75 seconds to 1 second in PvE only. 
• Spirited Arrival: Increased might stacks from 3 to 6 in PvE only. Increased might duration from 9 seconds to 12 seconds in PvE only. 

You literally destroyed our spirits. And increasing the alacrity duration (0.25 seconds lol, oh man that's quite a huge change there for being overly conservative) doesn't quite fix the problem of the range issues it's currently suffering from not keeping the alacrity on the spirits and tethering it to CA. If having to kite, heal and put out alacrity isn't enough mechanics to juggle. Now we have to be in 4 places at one time to make sure the group is getting proper alacrity. The only similar situation you guys put Druid and Scourge in is the dumpster, cause there's far better healing classes out that provide alacrity with much more viability. 

[CodeNameV.9432]

Chronomancer grandmaster traits I think need a look again. Wells again are going to be put on a shelf and forgotten.

Now really only the quickness from  phantasms trait feels good and viable. Was bunker Chrono a bit much ? yes but maybe reducing the alac on each Well instead of removing them all together.

[DarkCobalt.2849]

9 hours ago, The Cashew Cab.8491 said:

You're still keeping the Shade duration at 8 seconds? Are you actually serious right now?

 

Do you have any idea just how BAD Scourge feels to play with this change? It's absolutely miserable. It's gone from being my main to absolute torture to play to the point I can't even bear to touch it anymore.

 

You can't fix the bad play feel of the spec just by bringing the numbers up a bit, the Shade duration is a core facet of the spec and you've completely killed it.

 

The 8 second Shade duration makes Scourge feel WAY too spammy and annoying. Please, I am BEGGING you to consider how these decisions affect the playability of certain specs. Please get someone who ACTUALLY plays Scourge on your balance team.

 

Just. Tie. Alacrity. To Sand Savant. Limit Alacrity pulses to the Shade and the Shade ONLY.

 

Don't tie Alacrity generation to Barrier, just make it to where every pulse of a Shade skill generates Alacrity when traited into Sand Savant. Keep Shade duration at 20 seconds.

 

It is literally that easy. Please.

This feedback has been provided numerous times before patch, and I second it once again. Please for the love of all that is holy, just put the alacrity on Sand Savant and make it only come from shades. And while we're at it, remove it from CA on Druid too and place it elsewhere. PLEASE, STOP COUPLING HEALING FUNCTIONS AND BOON TOGETHER. It has ruined Druid and didn't land with Scourge, I don't know how much more universally-agreed upon feedback we need to keep providing...

[Draeyon.4392]

Druid alacrity isn't great. Lingering Light is overall better for a support build from a WvW perspective.

Like others have stated, change the way alacrity is applied to something Druid is already doing.

E.g. Apply Alacrity around the Druid when you or your pet grant regen or cleanse a condition.

Balance by icd and duration.

[reapex.8546]

9 hours ago, jcluzio.6207 said:

 

The mech should be fun to use, and not a baby you need to keep your eyes at all times.

Best reference example I've seen to current dps mechanist.  

Edited June 30, 2023 by reapex.8546

[Rafocale.5270]

Doesn't even come close to undoing the damage the last patch did. I know you're all busy with your new expac but maybe consider putting more effort into current patches so you don't end up pissing off all your potential customers right before the announcement of your shiny new dlc. At this point you should just undo the last patch entirely almost none of it was well received.

[Mike.7983]

1 minute ago, Rafocale.5270 said:

Doesn't even come close to undoing the damage the last patch did. I know you're all busy with your new expac but maybe consider putting more effort into current patches so you don't end up pissing off all your potential customers right before the announcement of your shiny new dlc. At this point you should just undo the last patch entirely almost none of it was well received.

Yes can keep the fractal content, but all class changes need to be undone.  Really do not want to remove a giant chunk of player base right as your advertising sales for expansion.  Should be the opposite, make people happy and want to spend money.

[connor.2180]

While it's nice to see fast communication with regards to some of the PVE concerns, I'm personally disappointed that the boon application in WvW, which many people raised concerns about (especially nerfs to boon strips as the only counter play) has not been mentioned. Hopefully the balance team can atleast comment on their thought process and vision for WvW because it seems to be becoming somewhat one dimensional by forcing a boonball meta. 

[DarkCobalt.2849]

10 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Phoenix Protocol: this trait now grants alacrity to the willbender when activating Flowing Resolve (5 seconds in PvE, 3 seconds in PvP/WvW), which can be shared to allies with Battle Presence. Reduced the alacrity duration when resolve triggers from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in PvE only.  

So just to dig into these Willbender changes, our request was to be able to provide Alacrity without a target, and these changes practically solve nothing because using the F2 without a target means we don't have it available when we have a target. The Willbender F2 is a 20-second cooldown per charge. If we blow both charges without a target, we'd get a measly 10 seconds of base alacrity and need to wait ~35-40 seconds to recover those two charges. As soon as a target becomes available, what do we do then? This proposed update fundamentally changes nothing, as blowing the charges to provide Alacrity without a target is in direct odds with using the charges to get Flowing Resolve when a target is available, so it's better to instead save Flowing Resolve for when a target is available, which is exactly how the class is currently played. We'd be actively griefing if we decided to use the F2 in this supposedly intended way of providing Alac during downtime..

Edited June 30, 2023 by DarkCobalt.2849