[Suggestions] Turn one core trait line to elite trait line and balance from there

[Genesis.5169]

So a bunch of f2p people wanna rain on the people who are productive to anet and pay for the game?Just pay for the game its 20$, if you can't find 20$ you prolly shouldnt be playing video games.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@Genesis.5169 said:So a bunch of f2p people wanna rain on the people who are productive to anet and pay for the game?Just pay for the game its 20$, if you can't find 20$ you prolly shouldnt be playing video games.

Another one missing the point. Slow clap

[TheGrimm.5624]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

Personally I and a number of people that I game with thought that the major fall balance patch that was released brought core specs in line with elites. I think that forcing players into using one of the existing ones as a base to call it an 'elite' would weaken those builds not strengthen them. No I have to disagree I think we are in a good spot right now when considering 'core' vs 'elite'. IMO. And agree core remain the build type with the most flexibility out there.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

Personally I and a number of people that I game with thought that the major fall balance patch that was released brought core specs in line with elites. I think that forcing players into using one of the existing ones as a base to call it an 'elite' would weaken those builds not strengthen them. No I have to disagree I think we are in a good spot right now when considering 'core' vs 'elite'. IMO. And agree core remain the build type with the most flexibility out there.

I see, well its good to know.Off topic do you have a core spec that you use?

[OriOri.8724]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@OriOri.8724 no one said that core spec should be locked behind lvl 71. If they change the system so you unlock the elite trait line at lvl 30 (or sooner) and then the others.@Seera.5916 Yeah some builds will die, new will be made. Isn't the cooldoown already like 2s for swamp?@Aeolus.3615 Yeah pretty much.@Adenin.5973 So only people with expansions should have useful builds for anything that is not open world AA runs?@Illconceived Was Na.9781 So it would be better if the Devs never balance anything and just keep throwing elite specializations at us. And lets face it everything could delay development for future expansions. Elite trait lines are so powerful because only 1 can be used at a time. So every time a core trait line is buffed, it will most likely buff the elite even more.

The problem being that elite lines can only go into the 3rd trait line slot, which isn't unlocked until level 71. That's why it would be locked until at least level 71 under the current game system, due to limitations in where you can equip an elite trait line.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

Personally I and a number of people that I game with thought that the major fall balance patch that was released brought core specs in line with elites. I think that forcing players into using one of the existing ones as a base to call it an 'elite' would weaken those builds not strengthen them. No I have to disagree I think we are in a good spot right now when considering 'core' vs 'elite'. IMO. And agree core remain the build type with the most flexibility out there.

I see, well its good to know.Off topic do you have a core spec that you use?

Have at least 2 toons per class and 3 of most to leave one at each build type, all 80s and all but 1 ascended. PvXer so play a mix of game modes. I do own both expansions as well on my main account but have a second account that I use just as core that has neither expansion. Typically use the second one as just a side pvp account though so no WvW or PvE on that one. I do usually use my base toons as the ones I will experiment with builds on since they require less re-gearing so do unlock the elites in most cases even if not using them, but current setups:

• War: Core/Berserker/SB Preferred: None
• Guard: Core/DH/FB Preferred: None
• Revi: Core/Renegade Preferred: Core
• Engi: Core/HS : Preferred: HS since its still new
• Ranger: Core/Druid/SB/Mix Preferred: None
• Thief: Core/DD/DE Preferred: DD
• Ele: Core/Weaver Preferred: Weaver since its still new
• Mez: Core/Mirage Preferred: Mirage since its still new
• Necro: Core/Reaper/Scourge Preferred: None

Have a few more slots still open that I picked up pre-PoF sales for growth potential, don't have 3 of some since I tried but didn't find builds that I enjoyed the game play on yet to keep but will end up with 3 of each before we get to the next expansion.

[Lonami.2987]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

It's either this, adding a new elite specialization trait line for core, or remaking core professions altogether. Right now, everything is a mess because the foundation isn't working. Professions were never built with elite specializations in mind, and it shows.

It's very sad that core professions haven't been updated since more than 3 years ago. They're still missing 2 healing skills and 1 elite skill each, and many of them could use new weapons as well.

Personally, I'd prefer a full profession redesign, but I'll stick with the new trait line idea for a quick sketch of how it could look like:

• Elementalist:
  Arcanist (5th attunement)
• Mesmer:
  Illusionist (+2 maximum illusions, for a total of 5)
• Necromancer:
  ?
• Engineer:
  ?
• Ranger:
  Beastmaster (two pets out at once)
• Thief:
  Bandit (additional steal skill slots in F2 and F3)
• Guardian:
  Inquisitor (New F4 virtue, Wrath)
• Revenant:
  Ritualist (New core legend, Legendary Headmaster, represented by Togo)
• Warrior:
  Warmaster (New F2 burst skill based on the off-hand weapon)

And anyway, to be fair, I would redesign traits as well, and kill trait lines, replacing them with "choose whatever you want" traits instead.

Yeah full profession redesign would be nice. And this are nice suggestions for trait lines.

I had threads for redesigns in the old forums. Gotta restore them some day, but if you want a quick summary of the final versions:

• Elementalist: Add weapon swap, make all weapon skills have the same mechanic with minor differences on attunement swap (so it's easier to balance and design new ones), remove conjures and make them weapons, keep chains and channels when switching attunements (if you're channeling healing rain and switch to fire, you start channeling fire rain with bonus time).
• Mesmer: Shatters gone, clone skills removed, clones are now 3 permanent allies you can control and position easily from the mechanic bar (they copy all your movements, you can swap places with them, and the enemy can use reveal to tell them apart from the owner), phantasms now do something (attack once, shield you for 5s, etc) and then they disappear.
• Necromancer: Death Shroud gone, replaced by a minion master panel where you control a swarm of different creatures spawned from the mechanic bar. You have different swarms to choose from, like rangers choose their pets. Each elite specialization gets a new swarm option.
• Engineer: Add weapon swap, Tool Belt gone, kits are no longer slot skills, and now you can equip two of them at F1 and F2 (available kits: Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Wrench and Welder, Machine Gun, and Energy Cannon), kits are more powerful now, but use ammo and need reloading, kits can be customized with custom skins, mines and grenades added as new slot skills, kits interact with slot skills of their type. Each elite specialization gets a new exclusive kit option.
• Ranger: Better pet controls, pet number reduced to one per family, the rest of the pets become pet skins you can equip with no changes to skills or stats, support pet options that stay back and don't attack, new weapon skills that perform combos with your pet.
• Thief: Steal gone, replaced by a tool belt of 4 mechanic skills based on a set selected from a list (knifes, smoke bombs, shadowsteps, stealth, etc), these skills aren't very powerful, but they are useful to perform combos and they grant bonus initiative when they hit their targets. Each elite specialization gets a new exclusive tool belt option.
• Guardian: Virtues can now be customized between different skill types (signet, shout, consecration, meditation, and symbols) which you select manually at will. Each elite specialization gets a new exclusive type option.
• Revenant: Legend-locked slot skills gone, now you can customize slot skills as you want like the other professions, energy and upkeep gone, Mallyx replaced by Varesh Ossa, new Flame Legion core legend, Bonfaaz Burntfur, legend swap gone, now you equip legends in F1 and F2, and use those buttons to transform (like Death Shroud, now removed from core necromancer) into an avatar of each legend gaining new weapon and slot skills based on the removed legend-locked slot skills, you can stay transformed as long as you want, each legend includes an ultimate skill (Jade Wind, Awakening, Rite of the Great Dwarf, Nightfall, and Searing) which turns you back into normal if used, Ventari's tablet removed (saved for a future elite specialization where each legend gets a relic with pet-controls), the two legends you've selected talk with you and with each other. Each elite specialization gets a new legend option.
• Warrior: F1 and F2 burst skills for main-hand and off-hand weapons each. The effect of the burst skills is different for each tier, and not just the same skill with different strength.

This redesign would include new weapons for each core profession (ideally, every time a new specialization releases, it would include new stuff for the core profession as well). These new weapons would include new weapon types as well.

It's a pretty quick recap, but you get the basic idea. It changes a lot of the core principles, switches mechanics between professions, and uses new stuff. Have ideas for new elite specializations and redesigned elite specializations as well, using the foundation of these redesigned core professions, but that's for another thread.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@Lonami.2987 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

It's either this, adding a new elite specialization trait line for core, or remaking core professions altogether. Right now, everything is a mess because the foundation isn't working. Professions were never built with elite specializations in mind, and it shows.

It's very sad that core professions haven't been updated since more than 3 years ago. They're still missing 2 healing skills and 1 elite skill each, and many of them could use new weapons as well.

Personally, I'd prefer a full profession redesign, but I'll stick with the new trait line idea for a quick sketch of how it could look like:

• Elementalist:
  Arcanist (5th attunement)
• Mesmer:
  Illusionist (+2 maximum illusions, for a total of 5)
• Necromancer:
  ?
• Engineer:
  ?
• Ranger:
  Beastmaster (two pets out at once)
• Thief:
  Bandit (additional steal skill slots in F2 and F3)
• Guardian:
  Inquisitor (New F4 virtue, Wrath)
• Revenant:
  Ritualist (New core legend, Legendary Headmaster, represented by Togo)
• Warrior:
  Warmaster (New F2 burst skill based on the off-hand weapon)

And anyway, to be fair, I would redesign traits as well, and kill trait lines, replacing them with "choose whatever you want" traits instead.

Yeah full profession redesign would be nice. And this are nice suggestions for trait lines.

I had threads for redesigns in the old forums. Gotta restore them some day, but if you want a quick summary of the final versions:

• Elementalist:
  Add weapon swap, make all weapon skills have the same mechanic with minor differences on attunement swap (so it's easier to balance and design new ones), remove conjures and make them weapons, keep chains and channels when switching attunements (if you're channeling healing rain and switch to fire, you start channeling fire rain with bonus time).
• Mesmer:
  Shatters gone, clone skills removed, clones are now 3 permanent allies you can control and position easily from the mechanic bar (they copy all your movements, you can swap places with them, and the enemy can use reveal to tell them apart from the owner), phantasms now do something (attack once, shield you for 5s, etc) and then they disappear.
• Necromancer:
  Death Shroud gone, replaced by a minion master panel where you control a swarm of different creatures spawned from the mechanic bar. You have different swarms to choose from, like rangers choose their pets. Each elite specialization gets a new swarm option.
• Engineer:
  Add weapon swap, Tool Belt gone, kits are no longer slot skills, and now you can equip two of them at F1 and F2 (available kits: Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Wrench and Welder, Machine Gun, and Energy Cannon), kits are more powerful now, but use ammo and need reloading, kits can be customized with custom skins, mines and grenades added as new slot skills, kits interact with slot skills of their type. Each elite specialization gets a new exclusive kit option.
• Ranger:
  Better pet controls, pet number reduced to one per family, the rest of the pets become pet skins you can equip with no changes to skills or stats, support pet options that stay back and don't attack, new weapon skills that perform combos with your pet.
• Thief:
  Steal gone, replaced by a tool belt of 4 mechanic skills based on a set selected from a list (knifes, smoke bombs, shadowsteps, stealth, etc), these skills aren't very powerful, but they are useful to perform combos and they grant bonus initiative when they hit their targets. Each elite specialization gets a new exclusive tool belt option.
• Guardian:
  Virtues can now be customized between different skill types (signet, shout, consecration, meditation, and symbols) which you select manually at will. Each elite specialization gets a new exclusive type option.
• Revenant:
  Legend-locked slot skills gone, now you can customize slot skills as you want like the other professions, energy and upkeep gone, Mallyx replaced by
  Varesh Ossa
  , new Flame Legion core legend,
  Bonfaaz Burntfur
  , legend swap gone, now you equip legends in F1 and F2, and use those buttons to transform (like Death Shroud, now removed from core necromancer) into an avatar of each legend gaining new weapon and slot skills based on the removed legend-locked slot skills, you can stay transformed as long as you want, each legend includes an ultimate skill (Jade Wind, Awakening, Rite of the Great Dwarf, Nightfall, and Searing) which turns you back into normal if used, Ventari's tablet removed (saved for a future elite specialization where each legend gets a relic with pet-controls), the two legends you've selected talk with you and with each other. Each elite specialization gets a new legend option.
• Warrior:
  F1 and F2 burst skills for main-hand and off-hand weapons each. The effect of the burst skills is different for each tier, and not just the same skill with different strength.

This redesign would include new weapons for each core profession (ideally, every time a new specialization releases, it would include new stuff for the core profession as well). These new weapons would include

new weapon types

as well.

It's a pretty quick recap, but you get the basic idea. It changes a lot of the core principles, switches mechanics between professions, and uses new stuff. Have ideas for new elite specializations and redesigned elite specializations as well, using the foundation of these redesigned core professions, but that's for another thread.

This will require a massive rework, but it might be fun.

[Seera.5916]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@OriOri.8724 no one said that core spec should be locked behind lvl 71. If they change the system so you unlock the elite trait line at lvl 30 (or sooner) and then the others.@Seera.5916 Yeah some builds will die, new will be made. Isn't the cooldoown already like 2s for swamp?@Aeolus.3615 Yeah pretty much.@Adenin.5973 So only people with expansions should have useful builds for anything that is not open world AA runs?@Illconceived Was Na.9781 So it would be better if the Devs never balance anything and just keep throwing elite specializations at us. And lets face it everything could delay development for future expansions. Elite trait lines are so powerful because only 1 can be used at a time. So every time a core trait line is buffed, it will most likely buff the elite even more.

No new builds will be made! You're removing builds only.

Unless they give everyone the exact same skills and traits, they'll never be able to get a perfect balance. And that's if they never add in a new elite spec or base spec. Plus given the average skill level of players isn't known to the devs as they read logs and forums, they have to take educated guesses on whether someone lost to someone else due to a class or skill being OP or UP or the players' skills were that different.

If core players should get an elite, it should be an elite that is added to the game.

Maybe for Elementalists if you take the core ele elite, you get access to weapon swap, but you don't get free choice of all 4 attunements. The first minor trait gives you fire. The first major trait decides which other trait (air, water, or earth) as well as a related other skill. Add some more hero challenges to the core world as well.

[Lonami.2987]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:This will require a massive rework, but it might be fun.

Yes, it would be a lot of work, but it would be better for both the game and the developers in the long term. The goal of those ideas is:

• Modularity for mechanics. Give every profession a clear distinct mechanic. Then every future elite specialization would use one of those 9 mechanics. Makes it easier to design new professions, and requires less work since you already have a strong foundation.
• Normalization of slot and mechanic skills, reducing the number of types and merging some of them (glamour and consecration, etc). Runes and other upgrades can give bonuses to those specific mechanics as well, without their usefulness being relegated to a single build for a single profession.
• Removal of problematic design decisions, specially those who add more work or make balancing harder. For example, elementalist attunements, as they are now, are hell. I main and love elementalist, and there's no point denying it. It's x4 times the work, and it will never be balanced properly. Sometimes more is less, and you need to cut down the options in exchange of making the result better.

The 9 mechanics would be as follows: (Note that I'm assuming elite specialization revamps as well, too long to explain here, but you should get the general idea of the direction of the changes)

• Mode: Permanent variation for weapon skills - Elementalist (Attunements), Deadeye (Kneel), Weaver (Dual Attunement).
• Boost: Temporary replacement of weapon skills - Engineer (Kits), Druid (Avatar), Reaper (Shroud), Holosmith (Forge).
• Phase: Permanent replacement of weapon skills - Revenant (Legends), Firebrand (Tomes), Soulbeast (Shapeshift).
• Pet: Individual companion, with AI autonomy, which can be manually commanded - Ranger (Pet).
• Swarm: Multiple companions, with AI autonomy, which can be manually commanded - Necromancer (Minions), Scrapper (Gyros), Renegade (Warband).
• Puppet: Individual/Multiple companions, with no AI autonomy, which need to be manually commanded - Mesmer (Clones), Chronomancer (Chrono Clones), Scourge (Shades).
• Belt: Set of mechanic skills, determined by a selected option - Thief (Techniques), Daredevil (Advanced Techniques), Spellbreaker (Counters).
• Weapon: Set of mechanic skills, determined by the active weapons - Warrior (Burst), Berserker (Primal Burst), Mirage (Mirror).
• Slot: Set of mechanic skills, determined by other mechanics or manually selected - Guardian (Virtues), Dragonhunter (Advanced Virtues), Herald (Facet), Tempest (Overload).

Each mechanic can then have its own secondary mechanics (like custom dodges, energy bars, stat boosts, etc), the above is just the foundation. I'm still not sure about few of them, like revenant and engineer being boost/phase or phase/boost.

For example, some new elite specialization ideas following the above model:

• Elementalist - Dervish (Boost: Djinn Form - Transform into a djinn of your current attunement, each djinn has a specific role)
• Mesmer - Bladedancer (Mode: Dance - Switch your combat style to dance while you slaughter your enemies)
• Mesmer - Siren (Phase: Musical Instruments - Turn stories into reality through heroic songs)
• Necromancer - Apothecary (Belt: Lab Tools - Various alchemic gizmos)
• Engineer - Golemancer (Phase: Golem Suit - Transform into a golem, which can equip kits on its own unique way)
• Ranger - Beastmaster (Pet: Dual Pet - Two pets at once)
• Ranger - Swampstalker (Swarm - Deadly tiny creatures: Snakes, Pocket Raptors, Scarabs, Pygmy Moas, Piranhas, Birds, etc)
• Thief - Assassin (Phase: Martial Weapons - Equip various specialist weapons: Nunchakus, Claws, etc)
• Thief - Changeling (Boost: Shadow Form - Become a nightmare who can hide inside the shadows and travel between them)
• Guardian - Archon (Boost: Archon Form - Transform into an archangel of sorts)
• Revenant - Ritualist (Puppet: Relic - Legendary artifact from your current legend: Tome of the Rubicon, Ventari's Tablet, the Apocrypha, a Searing Cauldron, etc)
• Revenant - Shaman (Pet: Spirit of the Wild - Summon the spirits of the Wild: Bear, Owl, Raven, Snow Leopard, and Wolf)
• Warrior - Gladiator (Pet: Pit Beast - Large animals from the pits of a coliseum, which can be customized with different upgrades to make them deadlier in battle: Spikes, reinforced claws, etc)

As you see it's easier to build stronger themes following the above model. Get the core right, and then make it unique.

[OriOri.8724]

@Lonami.2987 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:This will require a massive rework, but it might be fun.

Yes, it would be a lot of work, but it would be better for both the game and the developers in the long term. The goal of those ideas is:

• Modularity for mechanics. Give every profession a clear distinct mechanic. Then every future elite specialization would use one of those 9 mechanics. Makes it easier to design new professions, and requires less work since you already have a strong foundation.
• Normalization of slot and mechanic skills, reducing the number of types and merging some of them (glamour and consecration, etc). Runes and other upgrades can give bonuses to those specific mechanics as well, without their usefulness being relegated to a single build for a single profession.
• Removal of problematic design decisions, specially those who add more work or make balancing harder. For example, elementalist attunements, as they are now, are hell. I main and love elementalist, and there's no point denying it. It's x4 times the work, and it will never be balanced properly. Sometimes more is less, and you need to cut down the options in exchange of making the result better.

The 9 mechanics would be as follows: (Note that I'm assuming elite specialization revamps as well, too long to explain here, but you should get the general idea of the direction of the changes)

• Mode:
  Permanent variation for weapon skills - Elementalist (Attunements), Deadeye (Kneel), Weaver (Dual Attunement).
• Boost:
  Temporary replacement of weapon skills - Engineer (Kits), Druid (Avatar), Reaper (Shroud), Holosmith (Forge).
• Phase:
  Permanent replacement of weapon skills - Revenant (Legends), Firebrand (Tomes), Soulbeast (Shapeshift).
• Pet:
  Individual companion, with AI autonomy, which can be manually commanded - Ranger (Pet).
• Swarm:
  Multiple companions, with AI autonomy, which can be manually commanded - Necromancer (Minions), Scrapper (Gyros), Renegade (Warband).
• Puppet:
  Individual/Multiple companions, with no AI autonomy, which need to be manually commanded - Mesmer (Clones), Chronomancer (Chrono Clones), Scourge (Shades).
• Belt:
  Set of mechanic skills, determined by a selected option - Thief (Techniques), Daredevil (Advanced Techniques), Spellbreaker (Counters).
• Weapon:
  Set of mechanic skills, determined by the active weapons - Warrior (Burst), Berserker (Primal Burst), Mirage (Mirror).
• Slot:
  Set of mechanic skills, determined by other mechanics or manually selected - Guardian (Virtues), Dragonhunter (Advanced Virtues), Herald (Facet), Tempest (Overload).

Each mechanic can then have its own secondary mechanics (like custom dodges, energy bars, stat boosts, etc), the above is just the foundation. I'm still not sure about few of them, like revenant and engineer being boost/phase or phase/boost.

For example, some new elite specialization ideas following the above model:

• Elementalist - Dervish (Boost: Djinn Form - Transform into a djinn of your current attunement, each djinn has a specific role)
• Mesmer - Bladedancer (Mode: Dance - Switch your combat style to dance while you slaughter your enemies)
• Mesmer - Siren (Phase: Musical Instruments - Turn stories into reality through heroic songs)
• Necromancer - Apothecary (Belt: Lab Tools - Various alchemic gizmos)
• Engineer - Golemancer (Phase: Golem Suit - Transform into a golem, which can equip kits on its own unique way)
• Ranger - Beastmaster (Pet: Dual Pet - Two pets at once)
• Ranger - Swampstalker (Swarm - Deadly tiny creatures: Snakes, Pocket Raptors, Scarabs, Pygmy Moas, Piranhas, Birds, etc)
• Thief - Assassin (Phase: Martial Weapons - Equip various specialist weapons: Nunchakus, Claws, etc)
• Thief - Changeling (Boost: Shadow Form - Become a nightmare who can hide inside the shadows and travel between them)
• Guardian - Archon (Boost: Archon Form - Transform into an archangel of sorts)
• Revenant - Ritualist (Puppet: Relic - Legendary artifact from your current legend: Tome of the Rubicon, Ventari's Tablet, the Apocrypha, a Searing Cauldron, etc)
• Revenant - Shaman (Pet: Spirit of the Wild - Summon the spirits of the Wild: Bear, Owl, Raven, Snow Leopard, and Wolf)
• Warrior - Gladiator (Pet: Pit Beast - Large animals from the pits of a coliseum, which can be customized with different upgrades to make them deadlier in battle: Spikes, reinforced claws, etc)

As you see it's easier to build stronger themes following the above model. Get the core right, and then make it unique.

I think its quite a stretch to claim outright that your suggestions will definitely be better for the game in the longrun. You're very partial to them since you put a lot of owrk into them, but that also means you might have trouble looking at them subjectively.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Seera.5916 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@OriOri.8724 no one said that core spec should be locked behind lvl 71. If they change the system so you unlock the elite trait line at lvl 30 (or sooner) and then the others.@Seera.5916 Yeah some builds will die, new will be made. Isn't the cooldoown already like 2s for swamp?@Aeolus.3615 Yeah pretty much.@Adenin.5973 So only people with expansions should have useful builds for anything that is not open world AA runs?@Illconceived Was Na.9781 So it would be better if the Devs never balance anything and just keep throwing elite specializations at us. And lets face it everything could delay development for future expansions. Elite trait lines are so powerful because only 1 can be used at a time. So every time a core trait line is buffed, it will most likely buff the elite even more.

No new builds will be made! You're removing builds only.

Unless they give everyone the exact same skills and traits, they'll never be able to get a perfect balance. And that's if they never add in a new elite spec or base spec. Plus given the average skill level of players isn't known to the devs as they read logs and forums, they have to take educated guesses on whether someone lost to someone else due to a class or skill being OP or UP or the players' skills were that different.

If core players should get an elite, it should be an elite that is added to the game.

Maybe for Elementalists if you take the core ele elite, you get access to weapon swap, but you don't get free choice of all 4 attunements. The first minor trait gives you fire. The first major trait decides which other trait (air, water, or earth) as well as a related other skill. Add some more hero challenges to the core world as well.

That is true add something has a Elite to core would be far better than force Virtues (guardian case) has an elite traitline, since some DH and Spambrands use Virtues.The issue with that is that Anet would prefer to add that as a next $$$ must buy kewl kid gimmick,

Just look at firebrand its basicly a 2012 core guardian on steroids.... they prefered to power creep the class itself than actually baalnce and tune core.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

I assume you mean buffing only the profession mechanic trait lines. Buffing any of the other core lines also risks buffing the Elite Spec builds which use two of the five core lines. All that would do is provide more power creep.

Possible Benefits:

1) Players who own only core could see a power increase. This might mean these players could enjoy increased effectiveness in the competitive game modes. In PvE, they do not have access to a lot of the harder PvE content (HoT, raids, PoF), so any power increase would further degrade the base game's ability to offer enjoyment.2) It's possible that new builds would be considered viable. Whether they'd make it all the way to optimal would depend on just what was done. Optimal, of course, means best. My guess is that it is unlikely that ANet is going to devalue the purchase of XPacs and their Spec lines by making core builds best for given roles in various content types.

Possible Negatives:

1) Any existing build which relies on access to the profession mechanic line is out the window. People who like and use those builds would be unhappy.2) Reworking systems takes time and dev resources. ANet has reinvented the trait system multiple times already. They've finally achieved what looks like a stable release cadence, but only after losing way too many players during the content drought post-HoT. It might well be that reinventing traits would delay content releases, if only because it is difficult to balance challenges in content when player capabilities are unknown. I question just how many times the game can bleed players.3) Game balance is already a sore point for a lot of players. There are not enough updates, and not enough done in those updates to satisfy those players. A re-balance of 9 core profession mechanic lines is going to have to involve the balance devs. This could (probably will) impact the regular balance updates.

It seems to me that the potential negatives outweigh the potential positives. My preference at this point is to leave the core traits as is except for balance issues addressed in the regular balance updates. While it's possible that the revisions you want would make traits and builds better, it's also possible that it would not. Even assuming that it would, sometimes the better is the enemy of the good.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@Lonami.2987 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:This will require a massive rework, but it might be fun.

Yes, it would be a lot of work, but it would be better for both the game and the developers in the long term. The goal of those ideas is:

• Modularity for mechanics. Give every profession a clear distinct mechanic. Then every future elite specialization would use one of those 9 mechanics. Makes it easier to design new professions, and requires less work since you already have a strong foundation.
• Normalization of slot and mechanic skills, reducing the number of types and merging some of them (glamour and consecration, etc). Runes and other upgrades can give bonuses to those specific mechanics as well, without their usefulness being relegated to a single build for a single profession.
• Removal of problematic design decisions, specially those who add more work or make balancing harder. For example, elementalist attunements, as they are now, are hell. I main and love elementalist, and there's no point denying it. It's x4 times the work, and it will never be balanced properly. Sometimes more is less, and you need to cut down the options in exchange of making the result better.

The 9 mechanics would be as follows: (Note that I'm assuming elite specialization revamps as well, too long to explain here, but you should get the general idea of the direction of the changes)

• Mode:
  Permanent variation for weapon skills - Elementalist (Attunements), Deadeye (Kneel), Weaver (Dual Attunement).
• Boost:
  Temporary replacement of weapon skills - Engineer (Kits), Druid (Avatar), Reaper (Shroud), Holosmith (Forge).
• Phase:
  Permanent replacement of weapon skills - Revenant (Legends), Firebrand (Tomes), Soulbeast (Shapeshift).
• Pet:
  Individual companion, with AI autonomy, which can be manually commanded - Ranger (Pet).
• Swarm:
  Multiple companions, with AI autonomy, which can be manually commanded - Necromancer (Minions), Scrapper (Gyros), Renegade (Warband).
• Puppet:
  Individual/Multiple companions, with no AI autonomy, which need to be manually commanded - Mesmer (Clones), Chronomancer (Chrono Clones), Scourge (Shades).
• Belt:
  Set of mechanic skills, determined by a selected option - Thief (Techniques), Daredevil (Advanced Techniques), Spellbreaker (Counters).
• Weapon:
  Set of mechanic skills, determined by the active weapons - Warrior (Burst), Berserker (Primal Burst), Mirage (Mirror).
• Slot:
  Set of mechanic skills, determined by other mechanics or manually selected - Guardian (Virtues), Dragonhunter (Advanced Virtues), Herald (Facet), Tempest (Overload).

Each mechanic can then have its own secondary mechanics (like custom dodges, energy bars, stat boosts, etc), the above is just the foundation. I'm still not sure about few of them, like revenant and engineer being boost/phase or phase/boost.

For example, some new elite specialization ideas following the above model:

• Elementalist - Dervish (Boost: Djinn Form - Transform into a djinn of your current attunement, each djinn has a specific role)
• Mesmer - Bladedancer (Mode: Dance - Switch your combat style to dance while you slaughter your enemies)
• Mesmer - Siren (Phase: Musical Instruments - Turn stories into reality through heroic songs)
• Necromancer - Apothecary (Belt: Lab Tools - Various alchemic gizmos)
• Engineer - Golemancer (Phase: Golem Suit - Transform into a golem, which can equip kits on its own unique way)
• Ranger - Beastmaster (Pet: Dual Pet - Two pets at once)
• Ranger - Swampstalker (Swarm - Deadly tiny creatures: Snakes, Pocket Raptors, Scarabs, Pygmy Moas, Piranhas, Birds, etc)
• Thief - Assassin (Phase: Martial Weapons - Equip various specialist weapons: Nunchakus, Claws, etc)
• Thief - Changeling (Boost: Shadow Form - Become a nightmare who can hide inside the shadows and travel between them)
• Guardian - Archon (Boost: Archon Form - Transform into an archangel of sorts)
• Revenant - Ritualist (Puppet: Relic - Legendary artifact from your current legend: Tome of the Rubicon, Ventari's Tablet, the Apocrypha, a Searing Cauldron, etc)
• Revenant - Shaman (Pet: Spirit of the Wild - Summon the spirits of the Wild: Bear, Owl, Raven, Snow Leopard, and Wolf)
• Warrior - Gladiator (Pet: Pit Beast - Large animals from the pits of a coliseum, which can be customized with different upgrades to make them deadlier in battle: Spikes, reinforced claws, etc)

As you see it's easier to build stronger themes following the above model. Get the core right, and then make it unique.

Interesting, I do wonder how is their framework structured.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

I assume you mean buffing

only

the profession mechanic trait lines. Buffing any of the other core lines also risks buffing the Elite Spec builds which use two of the five core lines. All that would do is provide more power creep.

Possible Benefits:

1) Players who own only core could see a power increase. This might mean these players could enjoy increased effectiveness in the competitive game modes. In PvE, they do not have access to a lot of the harder PvE content (HoT, raids, PoF), so any power increase would further degrade the base game's ability to offer enjoyment.2) It's possible that new builds would be considered viable. Whether they'd make it all the way to optimal would depend on just what was done. Optimal, of course, means best. My guess is that it is unlikely that ANet is going to devalue the purchase of XPacs and their Spec lines by making core builds best for given roles in various content types.

Possible Negatives:

1) Any existing build which relies on access to the profession mechanic line is out the window. People who like and use those builds would be unhappy.2) Reworking systems takes time and dev resources. ANet has reinvented the trait system multiple times already. They've finally achieved what looks like a stable release cadence, but only after losing way too many players during the content drought post-HoT. It might well be that reinventing traits would delay content releases, if only because it is difficult to balance challenges in content when player capabilities are unknown. I question just how many times the game can bleed players.3) Game balance is already a sore point for a lot of players. There are not enough updates, and not enough done in those updates to satisfy those players. A re-balance of 9 core profession mechanic lines is going to have to involve the balance devs. This could (probably will) impact the regular balance updates.

It seems to me that the potential negatives outweigh the potential positives. My preference at this point is to leave the core traits as is except for balance issues addressed in the regular balance updates. While it's possible that the revisions you want would make traits and builds better, it's also possible that it would not. Even assuming that it would, sometimes the better is the enemy of the good.

Well you forgot fractals. But I do agree implementing it might take way to much time, and yes the power creep do force people to buy the new expansions.Now about the lost builds and unhappy people well once the new exp hit most current builds would most likely die. Like Holo replacing Scrapper in pretty much every game mode.

[Shirlias.8104]

@Ohoni.6057 said:If the idea is to make a F2P spec that is balanced against the expansion specs. . . that's not the point of a F2P spec.

F2p accounts would be at least able to chose whatever they want into SPvP.I could understand the limits into PvE and WvW, but limiting them in SPvP gives only problems ( though the modality is mostly dead, unbalanced, whatever. Since is the competitive one it should be accessible ).

I would support balance among all accounts regardless the expansions they own, but i am not sure that the TS proposal would be something which helps ( giving everything to everybody should be the first step ).

[Ardid.7203]

Elite Specs SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BETTER in the first place. Making ONE of the core traitlines better don't fix anything, just make mandatory to get that specific traitline, kills diversity for core users and make the rest of the base traitlines even more irrelevant.The only real solution is the complete, logic, natural and originally promised and intended answer: to make every traitline equally valuable, spec or core, both buffing base and nerfing elites. Yes, It can be a hell to balance that, but choosing just one core to concentrate power creep is no better in any way.

What the game needs is not new ways to disguise power creep.The game needs serious balance covering everything, and extra care for the neglected areas.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Lonami.2987 said:It's a pretty quick recap, but you get the basic idea. It changes a lot of the core principles, switches mechanics between professions, and uses new stuff. Have ideas for new elite specializations and redesigned elite specializations as well, using the foundation of these redesigned core professions, but that's for another thread.

In other words you want to kill the game with terrible ideas. Every single one of your ideas is like deleting the current professions and then making new ones.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Shirlias.8104 said:I would support balance among all accounts regardless the expansions they own, but i am not sure that the TS proposal would be something which helps ( giving everything to everybody should be the first step ).

Well in GW1 the sold a pvp package which contained all skills in the game at a reduced price. They could give us the same in GW2 as a way for pvp and wvw players to access all the specs without paying the extra price for the maps and general pve content.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Adenin.5973 said:Core specs are very useful, just not as an elite spec. Elite specs are designed to be useful together with the core specs. So core specs are already useful just not on their own.Exactly. That means that, since each of the elite spec playstyles are different (by design) from the core class ones, the core class playstyles - those that made many people pick that specific class in the first place - are not really an option. It would not be a problem if there was a "core" elite spec that would enhance the core playstyle, but currently it's not the case.Though personally i'd not redesign already existing traitlines. I'd aim at having for each class a set of elite specs that were based around the core playstyles (with no added gimmicks on top).

[Carighan.6758]

I don't see the point.

Not because I think the idea would not have merit in itself. It's certainly interesting, taking the most unique aspect of core classes and turning it into "their" elite aspect.

But it comes with a few problems which I think would need to be resolved first:

• Elite specs are mutually exclusive. No Mirage has Continuum Split, no Chronomancer has Ambush attacks. Which aspect of core mesmers would become unavailable for either of those two? And what would this element be for all the other elite specs. This part, if solved, actually makes me really excited about this because I feel the lack of "give some to get some" is the biggest flaw of virtually all current elite specs.
• The class design has - IMO - way bigger holes to patch. We're talking lack of class identity and lack of perceivable class theme here. Everything is too generic, too spammy, too effect-ladden and doesn't impact the classes' gameplay enough to make them feel unique enough. These issues should be resolved first if it were on me, but they would for most classes comes with a major retooling which might leave most skills intact but under the hood virtually everything would change, including what those skills do.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@Ardid.7203 said:Elite Specs SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BETTER in the first place. Making ONE of the core traitlines better don't fix anything, just make mandatory to get that specific traitline, kills diversity for core users and make the rest of the base traitlines even more irrelevant.The only real solution is the complete, logic, natural and originally promised and intended answer: to make every traitline equally valuable, spec or core, both buffing base and nerfing elites. Yes, It can be a hell to balance that, but choosing just one core to concentrate power creep is no better in any way.

What the game needs is not new ways to disguise power creep.The game needs serious balance covering everything, and extra care for the neglected areas.

Nerfing the elites so they only provide different mechanic but not the current power is another interesting idea.

@Carighan.6758 said:I don't see the point.

Not because I think the idea would not have merit in itself. It's certainly interesting, taking the most unique aspect of core classes and turning it into "their" elite aspect.

But it comes with a few problems which I think would need to be resolved first:

• Elite specs are mutually exclusive. No Mirage has Continuum Split, no Chronomancer has Ambush attacks. Which aspect of core mesmers would become unavailable for either of those two? And what would this element be for all the other elite specs. This part, if solved, actually makes me really excited about this because I feel the lack of "give some to get some" is the biggest flaw of virtually all current elite specs.
• The class design has - IMO - way bigger holes to patch. We're talking lack of class identity and lack of perceivable class theme here. Everything is too generic, too spammy, too effect-ladden and doesn't impact the classes' gameplay enough to make them feel unique enough. These issues should be resolved first if it were on me, but they would for most classes comes with a major retooling which might leave most skills intact but under the hood virtually everything would change, including what those skills do.

Yeah I do agree with this points. Especially the lack of "give some to get some".