A problem with everyone having skyscales

[enigmatic.3576]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:18 AM, Sindust.7059 said:

I have all mounts hotkeyed too, I know how it works. But getting stuck in combat happens often enough that I just don't risk it any more unless I can be sure that I won't get hit.

Also I'm not exactly arguing in OP's favor. I personally don't care if everyone gets the skyscale. In fact I think it's a good thing. But you can't deny that it reduces the utility of all mounts that don't give you extreme speed boosts (i.e. beetle and griffon). The barrel roll replaces the raptor jump. The altitude you can gain with the skyscale is much more than what you can gain with the springer. On short trips over water the skimmer is irrelevant, because if you can already fly over it, why change mounts at all. And the jackal is irrelevant because it's basically a slower version of the raptor, so it's only useful for the sand portals which don't exist outside of PoF, LWS4 zones and W6. And even the high speed mounts are only preferable in very specific circumstances. The beetle is only good if you are in a zone that is flat and has no or only easily avoidable obstacles. And griffon is only helpful if you find yourself close to one of the highest points in a zone and have to go all the way across it, because if you only have to go a short distance you'd be better off doing a few barrel rolls with the skyscale, since they require less time to set up than a proper boost dive with the griffon.

What you're neglecting is that not all mounts are the same speed and springer is faster and climbing a wall that has ledges to jump to.  I also disagree with your "barrel rolls replaces raptor jump" statement as they are not equal other other than both being movement skills that sends you forward.  Distance covered and evasion frames are different.

[enigmatic.3576]

3 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

This just tells me that you don't know how to use the Raptor properly, because there is no terrain where Jackal beats the Raptor, especially when verticality is involved or precision is required. But that's irrelevant, because whichever one you pick, its use case is covered by the Skyscale.

So if we raced up a large slope, you'd beat me on raptor?

[Sindust.7059]

  

1 hour ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

What you're neglecting is that not all mounts are the same speed and springer is faster and climbing a wall that has ledges to jump to.  I also disagree with your "barrel rolls replaces raptor jump" statement as they are not equal other other than both being movement skills that sends you forward.  Distance covered and evasion frames are different.

1 hour ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

So if we raced up a large slope, you'd beat me on raptor?

VS.

8 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

some of these mounts are not as niche as you think

You guys have to make up your mind about what you're actually arguing about and consider the context of the statements you're replying to. Because what you describe is extremely niche, and only barely any better than Skyscale, for which you don't have to dismount to change how you move.

Also mounts are about moving from A to B. So if 3 skills move you forward, and can be used in the same circumstances, evasion frames are quite frankly the most pathetic justification so far. It's a hell of a niche thing to worry about when talking about mounts.

[enigmatic.3576]

23 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

  

VS.

You guys have to make up your mind about what you're actually arguing about and consider the context of the statements you're replying to. Because what you describe is extremely niche, and only barely any better than Skyscale, for which you don't have to dismount to change how you move.

Also mounts are about moving from A to B. So if 3 skills move you forward, and can be used in the same circumstances, evasion frames are quite frankly the most pathetic justification so far. It's a hell of a niche thing to worry about when talking about mounts.

Raptor and jackal are significantly faster than skyscale over land.  When you race against either of those over land, you're going to lose.  When you race against skimmer over water, skyscale will lose every time.  When you race against a springer up a wall with ledges, the springer will beat the skyscale.  What you seem to continuously ignore is the speed of the other mounts. 

Yes, skyscale is the jack of all trades so-to-speak but that doesn't make it the best mount.  ALL of the mounts have their niches and swapping between them is signficantly better than just sitting on skyscale the entire time.  Heck, swapping between all of the mounts while including skyscale in the mix, is signficantly better than sitting on skyscale the entire time as well.

I brought up evasion frames because quite often you're running through enemies who have melee and ranged attacks.  Being able to avoid these is fairly important.  The dash on skyscale is very short so chances are you'll probably not have enough time to evade many of those attacks compared to the other mounts such as raptor and jackal.  Being able to avoid damage on a mount is important as they do not have infinite health.

As for you putting quotes of my posts against someone elses and act as if we're contradicting each other, we're not.  The issue is that you treating the niches that each of the mounts provide as very extremely small.  It feels as if you've never bothered to swap between mounts at all and just rely on exaggerations to back up your position. 

This wouldn't be the first time that you relied on an over exaggeration when it came to mounts:

On 1/6/2023 at 10:12 AM, Sindust.7059 said:

I think we're playing different games. In WoW you can fly across the entire continent uninhibited. In GW2 you have to take specific routes within a zone to avoid the invisible walls.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/126114-i-want-to-discuss-flying-mounts-griffonskyscale-and-their-inability-to-stay-high-in-the-air-while-going-forward/page/2/#comment-1830912

You can disagree and say that the skyscale is the best mount all that you want.  The fact still remains that their speeds have been tested which is important when it comes to moving from point A to B.  You did say that this was all that the mounts are about after all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research

[Sindust.7059]

22 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

Raptor and jackal are significantly faster than skyscale over land.  When you race against either of those over land, you're going to lose.  When you race against skimmer over water, skyscale will lose every time.  When you race against a springer up a wall with ledges, the springer will beat the skyscale.  What you seem to continuously ignore is the speed of the other mounts. 

Yes, skyscale is the jack of all trades so-to-speak but that doesn't make it the best mount.  ALL of the mounts have their niches and swapping between them is signficantly better than just sitting on skyscale the entire time.  Heck, swapping between all of the mounts while including skyscale in the mix, is signficantly better than sitting on skyscale the entire time as well.

I brought up evasion frames because quite often you're running through enemies who have melee and ranged attacks.  Being able to avoid these is fairly important.  The dash on skyscale is very short so chances are you'll probably not have enough time to evade many of those attacks compared to the other mounts such as raptor and jackal.  Being able to avoid damage on a mount is important as they do not have infinite health.

As for you putting quotes of my posts against someone elses and act as if we're contradicting each other, we're not.  The issue is that you treating the niches that each of the mounts provide as very extremely small.  It feels as if you've never bothered to swap between mounts at all and just rely on exaggerations to back up your position. 

This wouldn't be the first time that you relied on an over exaggeration when it came to mounts:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/126114-i-want-to-discuss-flying-mounts-griffonskyscale-and-their-inability-to-stay-high-in-the-air-while-going-forward/page/2/#comment-1830912

You can disagree and say that the skyscale is the best mount all that you want.  The fact still remains that their speeds have been tested which is important when it comes to moving from point A to B.  You did say that this was all that the mounts are about after all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mount/Mount_speed_research

Lol. If you believe that GW2 isn't an invisible wall hell compared to WOW (which is what was discussed in that thread as far as I remember, because somebody very delusional claimed that WOW has more invisible walls than GW2). In WOW you can fly over an entire continent without hitting an invisible wall even once. In GW2 if you try to cross a single zone, like for example Desolation, from south to north through the middle, you'll hit a wall that goes about 70% across the center of the zone. Just had to deal with it today as I was doing HPs on one of my chars, resulting in a detour through the west, where there is no invisible wall. Also have you tried flying over Dragonfall? Absolute invisible wall hell. Then as I was trying to climb a rock in Domain of Vabbi in the middle of the zone, I couldn't fly away from it, because there was an invisible wall around it, so I had to go back down to come out of this invisible wall trap. Back when I was playing WOW I never had to take such things into account when navigating, because in WOW the textures are almost always identical with the collision boxes, and there are no invisible walls around every zone.

And in the same way it's not an exaggeration what I say about the other mounts now. Yes, there are some niche cases where other mounts are better, but you're clearly reaching to find those special cases.

And to get from A to B you need not just speed, but the ability to navigate obstacles, and Skyscale is the undisputed champion of navigating around obstacles.

[enigmatic.3576]

1 hour ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Lol. If you believe that GW2 isn't an invisible wall hell compared to WOW (which is what was discussed in that thread as far as I remember, because somebody very delusional claimed that WOW has more invisible walls than GW2). In WOW you can fly over an entire continent without hitting an invisible wall even once. In GW2 if you try to cross a single zone, like for example Desolation, from south to north through the middle, you'll hit a wall that goes about 70% across the center of the zone. Just had to deal with it today as I was doing HPs on one of my chars, resulting in a detour through the west, where there is no invisible wall. Also have you tried flying over Dragonfall? Absolute invisible wall hell. Then as I was trying to climb a rock in Domain of Vabbi in the middle of the zone, I couldn't fly away from it, because there was an invisible wall around it, so I had to go back down to come out of this invisible wall trap. Back when I was playing WOW I never had to take such things into account when navigating, because in WOW the textures are almost always identical with the collision boxes, and there are no invisible walls around every zone.

And in the same way it's not an exaggeration what I say about the other mounts now. Yes, there are some niche cases where other mounts are better, but you're clearly reaching to find those special cases.

And to get from A to B you need not just speed, but the ability to navigate obstacles, and Skyscale is the undisputed champion of navigating around obstacles.

So you found edge cases and made it out as if you had to find specific routes to use the griffon/skyscale when speaking about using them in the game.  That's an example of exaggeration.  You takes some small thing and then blow it up way more than it really is.  This was why I brought this up as you were doing it again here. 

If you think that skyscale is better than the other mounts then surely you'll be able to beat them in all races.  Doubtful as you're exaggerating how niche they are.  Also skyscale sure works well with navigating around obstacles without latching onto things.  Surely that's not a common complaint with the mount. /s

[Sindust.7059]

7 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

So you found edge cases

The lack of self-awareness is staggering. I think I'm done here.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 7/5/2023 at 10:52 AM, enigmatic.3576 said:

It's not.  The "best mount" is actually using a combination of the mounts based on the situation and their strengths.

Truth.  But I think a lot of players in this game don't keybind their mounts, so swapping frequently on the fly is cumbersome for them.  To these players, I could see the skyscale being the best mount because it can go almost anywhere any combination of the other mounts can go without having to swap.

[enigmatic.3576]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Truth.  But I think a lot of players in this game don't keybind their mounts, so swapping frequently on the fly is cumbersome for them.  To these players, I could see the skyscale being the best mount because it can go almost anywhere any combination of the other mounts can go without having to swap.

With that caveat, yeah It would probably be the best mount for them.

[HonesltlyX.7164]

The way I see it. Most long time players already have the Skyscale. Giving it to newer players wouldn't make a huge impact imo.

[vandrefalk.6823]

Quote

A problem with everyone having skyscales

None.

I use all my mounts, I even used jackal and warclaw in open world for fun.. jackal especially when you have portals to zip across larger areas, but also for evade and that brief barrier it provides allies. And mostly because I like my jackal skins the most.

[Logos.5603]

We need greater cooldowns for mounts, or for them to function like ammo skills (with some mounts costing more than others). Maybe even give some brutal anti-air abilities to some bosses. Back to travelling on foot folks because right now only peasants travel on foot.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

I use all my mounts, I even used jackal and warclaw in open world for fun.. jackal especially when you have portals to zip across larger areas, but also for evade and that brief barrier it provides allies. And mostly because I like my jackal skins the most.

I use my jackal and raptor for a lot of basic travel on alts. Really just depends on which skin fits that character best from the 2. I wish warclaws were sped up to be comparable in PVE. Then I'd use a bunch of those skins as well.

On topic, I don't care if more players get the skyscale. It isn't a prestige mount or anything (or hasn't been for several years). So many people have them already.
 

[Veka.8710]

I mean the Springer has it's uses, it's sure as hell more easier to climb VB with the Springer then it is with the Skyscale, and I have the crytal champion mastery maxed out a long with the super boost updraft from the Jade bot. Springer is also great for you to switch to your Grif.

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 7/5/2023 at 3:08 AM, Witch Engine.2305 said:

A problem that I see with this is that it makes other mounts almost obsolete, very specifically the bunny. The bunny still has advantages but it's slowly being outclassed by the skyscale, a mount that can move in all six degrees while scaling, will be able to shoot fire balls in multiple ways, and then on top of all that we will be able to mount in combat.

I don't think the solution is to somehow try to buff the bunny in a way that it outclasses the skyscale I think a better solution is to have the bunny mount synergize between the two. Perhaps create a mastery that allows it to initiate a more poweful version of it's attack if dropped from a certain height from skyscale or griffon, or some kind of ability that will launch the player into flight at a pretty respectable height, something far more useful than Bond of Faith.

Clearly this is not a priority issue, but its something I think is worth considering down the line. All the other mounts are great and still usesful, I still use the bunny for it's attack but really that's all I use it for. I think the bunny mount could be more interesting that's all, and having cross mount abilities might be cool while keeping older mounts relevant in ever changing content.

I want my free Turtle abilities and a free skin like the skyscale!! 

[Gibson.4036]

On 7/10/2023 at 2:31 PM, Sindust.7059 said:

This just tells me that you don't know how to use the Raptor properly, because there is no terrain where Jackal beats the Raptor, especially when verticality is involved or precision is required. But that's irrelevant, because whichever one you pick, its use case is covered by the Skyscale.

A road with a tight turn does not count as an obstacle to me. But a branch or rock on the floor that completely stops your beetle does, and drifting would not save you there, because if you know the branch is coming, you're better off not drifting at all, and just turning. And if you do not know that it is coming, at that speed, once you see it, it will be too late to set up a drift in such a way that you wouldn't lose all your speed anyway.

It is very rare that between where I am and my destination there are no bstacles that are higher than the place where I start minus boost dive altitude loss, and the destination itself is so much lower than where I start that Griffon could even be used without combining it with the Skyscale in the first place. I often fly up with the Skyscale, use Bond of Vigor to fly up some more, then do 2 barrel rolls to get a bit more altitude, then dismount, use glide booster, and then mount on the Griffon. And all those tricks are just about enough to make up for the altitude loss of boost dive, meaning I still have to be higher than my destination to reach it with the Griffon, and must not have unavoidable obstacles in my way either.

Also all you wrote just shows us that I was right with my statement:

Because 2 of your objections were in regard to these 2 specific mounts that I said the skyscale doesn't sufficiently replace, and the 3rd objection isn't even about a comparison with the Skyscale, it's a comparison of Raptor vs. Jackal, which is not the topic here.

All right, it's clear we're not going to see eye to eye.

My experience, however, is that I'm constantly zooming past skyscales by using other mounts. I still use it, but players who only use it are handicapping themselves.

I also pull ahead of Raptors on some terrain using Jackal, but the only time I've had trouble keeping up with Raptors on Jackal is when there are jumps that take two Jackal teleports to cross.

In my experience, Skycale replaces Springer, unless you want the break bar damage at fight start. Jackal is just slightly superior to Raptor for general use, though they each have an edge over the other in niche situations.

On the whole, ArenaNet has done a brilliant job of designing the mounts to not make any other mount obsolete, and players are far better off hotkey switching according to their current movement needs.

[Redfeather.6401]

I got an idea for a new Springer skill to keep it relevant.

The springer can break certain floors! Then you can have secrets under the ground in areas. That would be really neat! 😲

[Nilsibus.8132]

On 7/5/2023 at 12:33 AM, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

I know from memory about 7 Beetle Guilds
I know from memory at least 12 Griffon Guild.

I'm curious, could you elaborate on those guilds? To my knowledge there aren't that many mount guilds for beetle and griffon - but I'm interested which other ones you know 😄 

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:18 AM, pocky.7468 said:

There's just something "end of the line" feeling with all this. They can't even release a new mount for this so called "expansion" and instead are just giving away the supposed legendary one almost as a bribe. Not only does it undermine the core ideas of this game's progression but it also looks extremely desperate.

(Black Desert is doing the exact same thing rn BTW and are literally giving away dream horses, something that used to take tons of effort and time, and luck of course cuz its BDO. You can't tell me this doesn't look desperate, because it is, and so is what Anet is doing)

The desperation you speak of seems much more to apply to GW2 than to BDO. BDO's most recent "expansion" is similar to what they've always been able to put out, and you're still completely missing out on the other two dream horses even if they give you one of them for free.

GW2 on the other hand, once it gives you a skyscale, it's yours. There's really no other acquisitive hook left, no "two more skyscales to farm." And while BDO is just doing what it's always done (overpriced shop, baiting weebs, lame but consistent content), GW2 very much gives the impression of shrinking in ambition.

Which is a complete shame. In my opinion, as a consumer experience, GW2 not only utterly destroys BDO, but most other competitors in the genre. It pains me to see games more willing to nickel-and-dime players enjoy more stability.

Edited July 19, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[Gibson.4036]

On 7/6/2023 at 8:18 AM, pocky.7468 said:

There's just something "end of the line" feeling with all this. They can't even release a new mount for this so called "expansion" and instead are just giving away the supposed legendary one almost as a bribe. Not only does it undermine the core ideas of this game's progression but it also looks extremely desperate.

There's other signs that I'd say support a dwindling of the game and cheap attempt to milk it, but I don't think the SotO skyscale path is one of them.

I've argued against an easier path. I got mine before the Return achievements and accompanied a friend on the whole journey again after the Return achievements. For a luxury mount, the aqusition path was fine, and I enjoyed most of it.

But, that's the issue. It was fine as long as it was a luxury mount. That meant ANet couldn't design content around it. It makes sense for ArenaNet to develop content specifically around their most visible mount. In order to do that, they can't tell new adopters of SotO, "Sorry, get LW4 and run through it first".

It's the natural path of MMOs that things get easier to acquire over time. Endgame gear (exotic and ascended) is so much easier to acquire now than it was at the beginning. It doesn't require a "going out of business sale" state for that to happen.

[kharmin.7683]

Maybe ANet shouldn't have conceived of an expansion that would require mounted flight?  Or, maybe this was their way to justify giving out the skyscale to all players (who purchase the expansion) and hoping for the least amount of complaints?  I'm guessing it's the latter being used as incentive to purchase the expansion.  As in pretty much all things, when you want to discover the reason, follow the money.

[Manpag.6421]

I’m a game with a lot of buttons to press, most people are always going to gravitate towards one or two mounts that they have on easier keybinds, and it’s true that skyscale is easy and versatile. I don’t think that necessarily makes it the “best” mount, but I do think a large number of players consider it to be, based on what they use mounts for.

At the end of the day, the best mount is the one you enjoy most (appearance/movement) and gets you from A to B. My favourite PoF mount was the skimmer, even though griffon was technically more versatile and it was certifiably the slowest mount. Now we have siege turtles, they’ve become my favourite. A lot of players really hate how they handle, but to me that is a fun and versatile, but technical mount. On the flip side, I was extremely underwhelmed getting skyscale after using griffon forever by how clunky it felt, and I find the turtle’s bulk and handling far less irritating than my skyscale wall-latching onto everything.

 It’s okay for some mounts to be more popular or approachable than others, but I do wish the dialogue to newer players would change from “Get X mount, it’s the best” to “Try out these mounts and see which you prefer”.

 

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:51 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

Maybe ANet shouldn't have conceived of an expansion that would require mounted flight?  Or, maybe this was their way to justify giving out the skyscale to all players (who purchase the expansion) and hoping for the least amount of complaints?  I'm guessing it's the latter being used as incentive to purchase the expansion.  As in pretty much all things, when you want to discover the reason, follow the money.

So true, some management guru is telling the Devs what to do because his/her TQM chart says xyz.  And he's never played the game.