Staff needs more support in its kit.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Am i the only one here noticing how the role of dedicated support weapon for necro remains unstaffed?
Come new xpac we'll see support scourges running around with pistol/torch combos..so exactly the same as condi ones.

Meanwhile staff, that's supposed to be the supportive one is butting heads with axe over the role of ranged power burst weapon.
Swap to it, pop the skills and escape into shroud before it'd dysmal autos destroy your day..

Let's make staff great ag....or rather finally.
Real boons. Real cc. Maybe some barrier or healing for allies.

Right now whatever staff has, other necro weapons have it beat. Except axe maybe...






 

[Dadnir.5038]

Come on, Warhorn exist... As for staff it's now closer to a hybrid dps weapon than an utility weapon.

Edit: Also, staff is great based on what you want to do with it. It is a very useful tool for casual PvE farming and when you fight a thief that abuse stealth in competitive modes.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[GetFoxxed.9478]

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Come on, Warhorn exist... As for staff it's now closer to a hybrid dps weapon than an utility weapon.

Edit: Also, staff is great based on what you want to do with it. It is a very useful tool for casual PvE farming and when you fight a thief that abuse stealth in competitive modes.

The same warhorn who's trait got nerfed in last patch lmao

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

3 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Come on, Warhorn exist... As for staff it's now closer to a hybrid dps weapon than an utility weapon.

Edit: Also, staff is great based on what you want to do with it. It is a very useful tool for casual PvE farming and when you fight a thief that abuse stealth in competitive modes.

Sure, but here's the deal, raw truth,
I want to make legendary staff and hold it close and dear to my necro as I heal ppl on my scourge.
I don't want them giving me the stares asking "why the hell you run staff"?

Boon hate? None.
CC? Pistol + wh or torch has more.
Boons? Regeneration...1 stack.
Healing? Look above..

Even as a hybrid damage weapon it fails - GS on condi reaper is a real hybrid weapon doing real damage.
Revs, Guardians, Druids - these guys get to enjoy real staves that actually do stuff.

Rev staff for example is both a competent power weapon as well as a great healer weapon with massive utility no matter your stats.
Blocking, digusting breakbar damage, aoe heals -  this is how staff should look like.

Ours refuses to do even it's basic necro things - like corrupting/ripping boons. On a two handed necro weapon..
 

[Obtena.7952]

You notice that there isn't a dedicated support weapon for Necro. Great, because it doesn't need it. The support is already baked into the specs. I don't see a problem with that. I DO see a problem with one of the FEW weapon choices we have being converted into a support weapon JUST to satisfy some stigma about needing a dedicated support weapon for a specific role-based build. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Stand The Wall.6987]

staff is definitely the worst necro weapon

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You notice that there isn't a dedicated support weapon for Necro. Great, because it doesn't need it. The support is already baked into the specs. I don't see a problem with that. I DO see a problem with one of the FEW weapon choices we have being converted into a support weapon JUST to satisfy some stigma about needing a dedicated support weapon for a specific role-based build. 

Oh yes the support baked into the spec - true to staff's own if you catch my drift.
Last time I checked scourge wasn't outpacing anyone when it comes to supporting, at least not post July 27th patch.

And somehow other professions that are better at it and don't sport warrior sized arsenal of weapons still have one or even two supportive picks.
Like staff and warhorn for rangers, staff and shield for revenants, staff and shield for guardians, mace for engies, scepter for thieves.

Meanwhile necro staff is allowed to exist in it's pitiful state for two reasons only - one is need for aoe to catch ppl/tag mobs, and other is shroud that can save a horrible weapon such as this by replacing the weapon slots with shroud skills until you can swap back to a real weapon...
 

Edited July 9, 2023 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

4 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Boon hate? None.

he doesn't know...

[Dadnir.5038]

5 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Ours refuses to do even it's basic necro things - like corrupting/ripping boons. On a two handed necro weapon..

Our staff put aoe everywhere.

That's it's most basic job.

No other weapon in the game do that as well as ours.

No other weapon in game allow someone to spot a thief in sneaking on him like our staff marks.

You can spend your time looking at what the staff don't have all you want or you could accept the staff's design strengths and exploit them. It's up to you to be either a whiner or a winner.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Oh yes the support baked into the spec - true to staff's own if you catch my drift.
Last time I checked scourge wasn't outpacing anyone when it comes to supporting, at least not post July 27th patch.

And somehow other professions that are better at it and don't sport warrior sized arsenal of weapons still have one or even two supportive picks.
Like staff and warhorn for rangers, staff and shield for revenants, staff and shield for guardians, mace for engies, scepter for thieves.

Meanwhile necro staff is allowed to exist in it's pitiful state for two reasons only - one is need for aoe to catch ppl/tag mobs, and other is shroud that can save a horrible weapon such as this by replacing the weapon slots with shroud skills until you can swap back to a real weapon...
 

Scourge doesn't outpace anyone? That's OK ... it doesn't make sense to think it should or that this is even a good reason to rework staff in the first place.

Again, being a dedicated support weapon is probably the WORST thing that could  happen to ANY weapon in the small pool of available weapons for this class. Maybe staff is pitiful, maybe that's just a matter of your opinion. Either way, still not reasons to rework it as a support weapon. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

50 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Scourge doesn't outpace anyone? That's OK ... it doesn't make sense to think it should or that this is even a good reason to rework staff in the first place.

Again, being a dedicated support weapon is probably the WORST thing that could  happen to ANY weapon in the small pool of available weapons for this class. Maybe staff is pitiful, maybe that's just a matter of your opinion. Either way, still not reasons to rework it as a support weapon. 

Guess I didn't express myself clearly enough here, mixing some sarcasm into serious statements.
When I said scourge doesn't outpace anyone as support I meant it's practically dead last.

And beggars can't be choosers. If all the supports outpace you by a country mile, then you're in no position to scoff at having a supportive weapon. They have theirs and it works.
Also a supportive weapon does not mean instant death to it's dps. Revenant staff is quite supportive, yet if put on a power build it does respectable damage next to it's utility.
And let me make myself crystal clear here - the staff in no way, shape or form can stand next to reaper's greatsword and call itself a proper 2h necromancer weapon.

The power budget for a necro 2h is way bigger than what staff received. Which means it could get new funcionality without tossing it's damage output out the window.




 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Guess I didn't express myself clearly enough here, mixing some sarcasm into serious statements.
When I said scourge doesn't outpace anyone as support I meant it's practically dead last.

And beggars can't be choosers. If all the supports outpace you by a country mile, then you're in no position to scoff at having a supportive weapon. They have theirs and it works.
Also a supportive weapon does not mean instant death to it's dps. Revenant staff is quite supportive, yet if put on a power build it does respectable damage next to it's utility.
And let me make myself crystal clear here - the staff in no way, shape or form can stand next to reaper's greatsword and call itself a proper 2h necromancer weapon.

The power budget for a necro 2h is way bigger than what staff received. Which means it could get new funcionality without tossing it's damage output out the window.

OK it's dead last then ... doesn't change what I said. That's not a reason to rework staff into a dedicated support weapon because it doesn't necessarily mean Scourge won't be dead last if they did rework it as a dedicated support weapon.  

Let me be more clear here. I understand you. I just don't agree. Time for you to understand me. Staff doesn't stand next to GS? That's OK ... that doesn't mean it needs to be reworked as a dedicated support weapon. The power budget for 2H is bigger than staff received? OK, that doesn't mean it needs to be reworked as a dedicated support weapon. Other classes have support weapons that work for them? OK, that doesn't mean staff needs to be reworked as a dedicated support weapon. 

Frankly, it's unlikely that staff changes will fix anything wrong with Scourge in its support role ... so the whole premise that staff be reworked as a support weapon for that role is nonsensical. 

Here is the thing ... the theme of the weapon is obvious and intended. I have no doubt that if Anet makes a dedicated support weapon, it's not by trashing an established older one and reworking it. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Our staff put aoe everywhere.

That's it's most basic job.

No other weapon in the game do that as well as ours.

No other weapon in game allow someone to spot a thief in sneaking on him like our staff marks.

You can spend your time looking at what the staff don't have all you want or you could accept the staff's design strengths and exploit them. It's up to you to be either a whiner or a winner.

I read this to the tune of Gaston Singing

[RainWater.4762]

I love the Staff on my Necro, saved me more kills than the Greatsword because of those map Jumpers, thiefes and 1500 Range guys etc on wvw.
But jeah, 2 could give More healing, 3 and 5 could last longer. and the Auto attacke should be faster.

[Asum.4960]

I don't think it needs to be a dedicated support weapon. 

You mentioned Guardian Staff as one of the examples - but lets look at it's Axe.

With just two skills, you got great Condi DPS, good Power DPS, a reliable AoE ad Pull/CC, AoE perma Fury share, Condi Cleanse enabling Combo Field, traited AoE healing, traited extra CC - that's just 2 skills with more Utility and use cases than most of all full Necromancer Weapon kits combined.

Necro just needs some decently designed skills - right now most of them don't do anything besides damage and the odd boon removal here and there (and half of them don't even do that one thing right). Nothing can be adapted depending on what you spec and gear into.

I think Soul Marks could be baseline, and then add a Trait in it's place (or to Blood) which actually transforms Staff, similarly to what something like Writ of Persistence does to all Guardian Weapons. 

An idea could be that with the Trait, Marks now don't need a target/trigger anymore, and additionally Heal in their effect Area (low base, high healing power scaling) - allowing Staff to be used as ranged support weapon. Mark of Blood probably could have had Protection as well - so they don't have to dump everything into Scourge, once again bloating Necro Elite specs disproportionally as band-aid for a horribly lacklustre and bland core kit. 

It's AA just needs an overhaul so players don't feel compelled to Alt+F4 if they somehow find themselves stuck on Staff with both Shroud and Weapon Swap on CD. 

And for what it's worth, Dagger 2 should have had at least 50% of it's healing in an AoE around the Necromancer since a decade ago.

Shroud just isn't an excuse for terrible weapon skills anymore, not since Celestial Avatar, Tomes, Photon Forge, Gunsaber, Shadow Shroud, etc., and frankly not before those either. 

 

But ofc as with the recent Scourge changes as a whole, I have zero faith that Anet can create compelling new design/gameplay, and even less so without destroying what was fun and worked before - rather than using the design space they have (through Traits, gearing/scaling, etc.) to enable multiple mutually exclusive playstyles and roles, using the same base tools in different, engaging, fun and effective ways.

[Pooh.6897]

IMO if necro were to receive a ‘dedicated support weapon’ it’d have to be MH dagger, not staff. Dagger/warhorn has always been tied to blood magic. It’d make much more sense to pick those weapons for a support-playstyle, not staff. Personally I really like staff, especially since the buffs with the launch of EoD. Could it use a retweaking concerning conditions? Probably yes. But I’d say staff is in a pretty good spot right now.

also please for the love of all that’s holy, steer away from the ‘it’s good for farming’ argument. Farming in Open World is not a thing you design a weapon around. 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

11 minutes ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

IMO if necro were to receive a ‘dedicated support weapon’ it’d have to be MH dagger, not staff. Dagger/warhorn has always been tied to blood magic. It’d make much more sense to pick those weapons for a support-playstyle, not staff. Personally I really like staff, especially since the buffs with the launch of EoD. Could it use a retweaking concerning conditions? Probably yes. But I’d say staff is in a pretty good spot right now.

also please for the love of all that’s holy, steer away from the ‘it’s good for farming’ argument. Farming in Open World is not a thing you design a weapon around. 

I proposed this in a way via making Blood Bank ally shared (at expense of not getting barriers from outside heals).
But nobody bothered to comment...

You can see the whole idea here:

 

[KrHome.1920]

Staff got some close to overpowered damage multipliers recently in PvE. ANet won't give it more support on top.

In the near future this weapon won't be touched again by ANet. They don't have the ressources for that amount quality assurance.

Edited July 10, 2023 by KrHome.1920

[sdaugherty.1984]

11 hours ago, RainWater.4762 said:

I love the Staff on my Necro, saved me more kills than the Greatsword because of those map Jumpers, thiefes and 1500 Range guys etc on wvw.
But jeah, 2 could give More healing, 3 and 5 could last longer. and the Auto attacke should be faster.

As a fellow Necro WvW player I also love the staff. The quintessential necro weapon with the awesome scythe graphic. I run it more than I should. Why? Great question, it actually hits like a wet noodle. 1200 range is great but it just tickles enemy players and causes them to focus you. We all know what happens to a WvW necro when they are targeted/focused = dead in 3sec. Marks are like a trap and have to be triggered. It would be nice if they had more bite, or at least a few strips...

[The Boz.2038]

On 7/9/2023 at 4:41 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Come on, Warhorn exist...

Warhorn and?
What support do you got that pairs with warhorn? 
Please don't say "scepter boon rip".

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

22 hours ago, sdaugherty.1984 said:

As a fellow Necro WvW player I also love the staff. The quintessential necro weapon with the awesome scythe graphic. I run it more than I should. Why? Great question, it actually hits like a wet noodle. 1200 range is great but it just tickles enemy players and causes them to focus you. We all know what happens to a WvW necro when they are targeted/focused = dead in 3sec. Marks are like a trap and have to be triggered. It would be nice if they had more bite, or at least a few strips...

Agreed with that. Awesome animation on a tag/loot stick and little else.

Not only does it suck as a weapon kit-wise but also as weapon in terms of necro fantasy.
Staff on a necro is supposed to be balls to the wall magic weapon.

It's supposed to be potent and introduce most terrifying and unhinged uses of necromancy!
Summoning minions. Cruel curses that enemies fear. Bolstering allies with dark magic!

...meanwhile back in gw2. A set of 4 green mines that are visible from space and countered by a dodge roll..

 

[Pooh.6897]

To truly understand staff, you need to understand where it came from and where it is now. Originally, staff was tied to death magic. There was a trait in the old death magic traitline that would enhance your staff quite a bit. When one says ‘death magic’, one says minions. Which is also why there (still) is a regen on #2. The ‘fantasy’ of staff has always been controlling enemies with soft cc from long range while supporting your army of minions with regen uptime.

 Fast forward to today. Old trait-system doesnt exist anymore and staff now has a dedicated trait in soul reaping for some reason. They’re trying bandaid fixes but are too afraid to properly rework it into a new idea, mostly because it’ll very likely upset necro in PvP-gamemodes. Staff still somewhat works for the original idea although it’s used in completely different ways.

If they were to change staff in any way, I’d just like to see a mark of madness being added somewhere. For those that don’t know, I believe Lich Form used to have a mark of madness that would spawn minions. I’d love it if staff could get that. That way they could recycle the old idea while still keeping it relevant to use with death magic. Also a nice damage boost from the small minion army. For those that mainly play WvW: don’t be scared, this is why we have the competitive split in balancing.

[The Boz.2038]

18 hours ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

To truly understand staff, you need to understand where it came from and where it is now. Originally, staff was tied to death magic. There was a trait in the old death magic traitline that would enhance your staff quite a bit. When one says ‘death magic’, one says minions. Which is also why there (still) is a regen on #2. The ‘fantasy’ of staff has always been controlling enemies with soft cc from long range while supporting your army of minions with regen uptime.

How open would people be to a Guardian-symbols style treatment of the marks? 
Staff loses all but one mark, and the marks get tossed about the various two- and off-hand weapons of the necromancer (so each weapon set combination has exactly one mark on slot 4 or 5). And then staff gets to do something else.

I'm kinda liking it. A lot of me liking it is caused by "well, they killed the profession already, can't get any worse than that, really", but... think it could be easily doable.

[captrowdy.9561]

Staff is great. Gotta use it for pvp/wvw. I wish the healing and condi cleanse was easier to trigger 

[eutha six.5647]

Staff has lots of useful aoes- I do wish the cleanse was on a shorter timer like skill 1 is-otherwise it works when you get kicked from shroud and need to dps before getting back into shroud- also works really well for tagging--more of a condi/hybrid tool