Elite Spec's

[Thornwolf.9721]

So as a long time player, on and off of guild wars 2 I have to say Im a little disappointed that we wont be getting new Specs. I know that they are still giving us new weapons to play with; But as a rev player getting a new legend was a huge thing. Or seeing how the classes would change and what new methods of play would become available was a cool and looked forward too feature, this being abandoned means some of the things I'd of liked to see... will never happen. (Where is my norn legend for rev? I've only been waiting since the class came out.)

I hope they will maybe do them every other, or every two expansions? Abandoning it completely seems... well... not that good in terms of feeling. Or maybe this can pave the way for new classes with different themes? If thats the trade-off eventually then I'd be fine, but new weapons by themselves do not sell expansions.. while I LOVE what they are doing right now? What will be the hook going forward, because eventually we will run out of weapons. ( Some classes like warrior, will get there sooner rather then later.)

[Shuzuru.3651]

Well, I don't think new legends are out of the question, they did mentions that rather than elite spec, they'll focus on general addition.

So that could mean new weapon but also new utilities (maybe even new traitline but i think it's unlikely), we probably won't get any new class mechanics, thought.

The difference is that it won't get the full package everytime (weapon + utilities + trait + class mechanics at the same time) 

[voltaicbore.8012]

12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Abandoning it completely seems... well... not that good in terms of feeling.

I used to think this as well, during the IBS era. I was one of the many people complaining that IBS could never truly be "expansion like" content without elite specs.

However, EoD changed my mind about that. I remain fairly unimpressed with every single EoD elite. The builds that excel feel quite boring and uninspired to me, and the rest are just... even more boring. I don't think I'll miss elite specs, if EoD is any indication of how they'd be moving forward.

[Erich.1783]

While I enjoy new elite specs, it seems GW2 is at the point that it is becoming too difficult to maintain balance and individuality.  While each profession has, and hopefully will maintain, a unique feel, it is possible that there might be some concern about future elite specs maintaining a unique feel within the feel of the main profession and/or that elite specs from different professions will become to similar.  As to balance the more traits and skills you add to a game the more difficult it becomes to maintain balance, particularly in competitive game modes, for an extreme example of skill overload see GW1.  I am fully aware that GW1 had other issues exacerbating the  skill overload (multi-class most specifically), I am just using it as an example of the issues that can come from continually adding to a game in this way.

[Thornwolf.9721]

I just dont feel weapons by themselves are... an equivalent exchange. 

[HonesltlyX.7164]

I feel like having more elite specs that do the same thing existing ones do won't really feel that great. For example, I main Warrior. Warrior has only one elite spec that can go condi. Across all 3 specs its power dps or power support. Having yet another elite spec that does power dps would be disappointing. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 7/16/2023 at 10:24 AM, Erich.1783 said:

While I enjoy new elite specs, it seems GW2 is at the point that it is becoming too difficult to maintain balance and individuality.  While each profession has, and hopefully will maintain, a unique feel, it is possible that there might be some concern about future elite specs maintaining a unique feel within the feel of the main profession and/or that elite specs from different professions will become to similar.  As to balance the more traits and skills you add to a game the more difficult it becomes to maintain balance, particularly in competitive game modes, for an extreme example of skill overload see GW1.  I am fully aware that GW1 had other issues exacerbating the  skill overload (multi-class most specifically), I am just using it as an example of the issues that can come from continually adding to a game in this way.

Some people have a very very skewed idea of what Guild Wars 1 was even like.

1) Gw1 didn't really suffer from balance issues, least not in the way you are describing...like at all... They weren't even called "balance patches" they were called "updates" Mostly because they weren't focused on balance, they were focused on introducing variety, so they would alter mechanics and make things do other things, and fix broken stuff. People back then looked forward to updates because it meant new mechanisms in the game to create builds and compositions with, and a lot of the fun of the game, came from this exploration of builds.

Why? because GW1 didn't even have a truly competitive game mode, because there was no rating (just from GVG), all the modes were just game grinding and trying to get prestigious titles.

Gw1 didn't even really have a balance team...just a single developer (Izzy).

2) You had all types of crazy builds in guild wars 1. You had some people that would literately spawn in a match, and sacrifice all their health to drop dead because that was possible to do. Other end of that spectrum, you had players that would spawn massive 30 minion armies...Other end of the spectrum you had things like EOE Bomb, Contagion Spike, RTL Spike, Glaive-ways, Flare Ways, Eleballs, Balanced Ways and the list goes on and on.

Just an example, if you have ever played against an eleball...in theory this build was close to unkillable. What they would do is 8 ele's would huddle together, cast wards and wait to timer. they had a little spike to kill one of the opposing team so that they would win at the end and not cause a tie. From a balance perspective, this would be like...8 bunker mesmers standing on node to force games to timer. But ele-balls even though they were formiddable, it was not pure imba, and was kinda fun to fight against (more like strategize) and therefor it was never removed from the game. It was fun to fight against because you knew that IF you survived, and if you could kill just one of them, you would win the game (Also, Eleballs were less versatile further into Hall of Heros). Wierdo wacky builds (called Gimmicks) like this were the counter to balanced ways, which was the meta-game of course but builds like these would keep them in check...and there were lots of them.

I could actually write an essay on just how varied and interesting GW1 as a game was in it's design and build space...but the point of my comment is that balance was never the focus of guild wars 1, it was mostly that one dev just manipulating mechanics to "shake things up" couple times a year, and people looked forward to that because it meant new build compositions.

3) Guild wars 1's actual true balance issues that it had was

1) The Shadow Form economy

2) Melle Hate

3) Monk Privledge

Melle hate was just them having incredibly powerful anti-melle mechanics in the game like blindness. People think blind is bad in this game? Yall have no idea. If you had blind, you missed 90% of your attacks. Blind was permable by a Blinding Surge Ele...on multiple people... on top of that was empathy/mesmer skills having so much ability to shut down melle, that it made playing melle really unfun to play. Monk privilege was just people /resigning if they didn't have a monk on their team in RA, and that they were just required to be taken cause you just needed healing to compete.

But the real issue guild wars 1 had as a true balance problem, was the shadow form economy. Anet created a god mode button called shadow form, that made all attacks miss, and all spells fail against the caster. It was perma-able...and could not be countered (because striping spells, couldn't target the shadowformed caster) so you would literatlly press this button and you could not die. There were tons of really fun build compositions, that were made with shadowform being possible...but the problem was that every build had to have shadowform in it. They curated PVE around the performance of shadowform, similiar in vein to how they are now curating balance of the game to Alacrity and Quickness and the playerbase became SO attached to it because the spamadon ecto economy relied so much on it, that when Anet said they were going to gut it, many crybabies quit the game...so Anet decided NOT to gut it's functionality. To this day it is still a god mode button in the game...and it stands as a walking historical landmark for what happens when you create these "balance economies."

But if people actually did research and weren't so up their own kitten all the time with their bias's, they would have known what was going to happen when Guild Wars 2 began balancing around boons, and what would/could happen if you remove them. Alacrity and Quickness economy is no where near as bad as the shadow-form economy, so they can still get away with making changes to the game still without massive backlash. But it stands as a warning to not only design skills with intelligence, but to not also make the games economy and ultimately gw paycheck rely on it. Does any of this sound familiar yet? History likes to repeat itself. 

Below, were two opinions on the topic, from back in those times...from some posters on the GW1 wiki (which was how people discussed things back then cause there were no guild wars 1 forums) If you are just curious about what things were like in those days.

 

Spoiler

The Backbone of the Game[edit]

Everyone is shouting and ranting about Shadow Form being maintainable, and all these Speed Clears and solo farming ruining the balance of the game. Well just FYI, Shadow Form is not ruining the balance of the game, it is keeping it balanced. If they nerf shadow form completely, the games economy will crash.

These permas have been in the game to long to take them back. Everything in the game (besides discontinues) used to be at a steady price range, which was slowly declining. When Anet started the hints at nerfing shadow form, the economy began to go into wack. When they made the skeletons permanent, all hell broke loose.

This game doesn't run on Gold Coins or Platinum. 97% of the game runs on Ectos. Once permas were introduced, Ectos began to slowly decrease, bottoming out at 4kish. The hints of nerfing began, prices began to rise, they reached 5k within a few weeks, and it took months or so lower ectos down that much. This began a mad ecto frenzy, people refused to sell ectos because of the hinting of nerfing and the insane inflation to follow. So once the skeletons became permanent, ectos inflated like crazy! 5k to 7.5k within a day! On the lower scale, this doesn't seem to change much, but since rare weapons and minipets that go over 100k are priced in ectos depend on a steady currency, this screwed everything up. With ectos rising and prices fluctuating, it was hard to sell or buy anything rare during this period. 23 ectos became 16 ectos, and people refused to cooperate. Everything was Chaos. Things began to calm down, and people found ways around the skeletons. Now that Anet has placed Dhuum i the UW, it has increased intrest, lowering ectos back to normal range. All of this has to do with the practice of permaing in the UW and solo farming. Who knew that such practice could screw things up so much.

So now that things are a little higher than normal and relatively stable, things are okay. But now we got people saying they will completely nerf shadow form. If they do, all hell will break loose again. Permas ARE EVERYWHERE! In the daily life of a Guild Wars player, they do runs, they do main tanking for things, they do speedbooks, they run dungeons, they Speed Clear and solo farm areas and greens. All these money making opportunities will be GONE, if they nerf Shadow Form. Making a perma isn't that hard, anyone can do it if they have the character slot, time and about 15k. Permas are NEEDED in Guild Wars Today.

Permas are the Connection between the Rich and Poor. If they nerf Shadow Form, the poor will stay poor and the Rich will only get richer. With all rare weapon farms as a major source of income for the poor (SoOSC, BogSC etc...) nerfing Shadow Form will only remove that ability, and for those who are rich with these rare weapons, the weapons will become rarer, and will increase in price. Permas MUST stay in the game to keep the middle class ALIVE! The lucky poor guys who catch their break become this middle class with permas. Permas are the backbone of the guild wars balance.

Guild Wars depends on Permas, whether you know it or not. In a perfect world, there would be no wealthy or poor, just the common man who has the same amount of money as the next guy. But that is no fun. The motive of the guild wars player is to be better than the next guy. A complete balance would be horrible, but a untouchable wealthy elite will wreck everything. Give permas a chance. Yes Guild wars isn’t for solo farming, but grinding feathers for cash isn’t right either. Permas nowadays aren’t soloing things for cash, but for helpful items, or they are in a team as a tank or something.

I personally place a stamp on permas. DO NOT DELETE--68.115.108.135 05:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

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That's right....I forgot only the people who want nerf for SF in general are allowed to post. No other point of view is allowed here. So sad. It's truly a shame that Wiki discussion is only for whiners now. No real discussion since all the posts are one sided. Rasnyc123 15:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Permas are not a problem because they farm. Farming is never considered a problem by the ANet team, because they KNOW some people play that way. Permas are a problem because they do EVERYTHING high-end, and nobody except guildies, newbies, and henchmen, and the legendary half-decent PuG, are willing to play a different way. No class should be invulnerable to almost everything in an ELITE MISSION like the Underworld. They shouldn't be able to mob their way through dungeons like Mario high on perma star power. Of course there are other farming builds that need the "nerf stick", and the journal saying that SF was getting nerfed said other prominent farming builds would also be affected.

You demean our arguments as whining when you haven't given any non-refutable reason why it should stay, just the "WELL THEY'RE DOING IT TOO" argument, which is clearly just dodging the point, and pointing out things that may or may not need a nerf. Trust me, we do complain about the others, but permas have become so prominent that they just need to go, and we'll push for that before we whine about some W/N's farming only raptors, which really isn't an issue. Farming is not the issue; a single class practically retaining ownership over all high-end play is the issue. Show me any W/N that can match that. --Kyoshi (Talk) https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/1/18/User_Kyoshi_sig.png 19:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Shadow Form: All buffs and nerfs while you are enchanted with Shadow Form fail.--88.25.162.68 08:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

 

(Reset indent) Uhm...nah? That would just make the user melee-/direct spell damage-meat, since they couldn't be protted. ANet apparently already have a plan for this, and this isn't the Feedback portal so they won't see your suggestion anyway. --Kyoshi (Talk) https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/1/18/User_Kyoshi_sig.png 20:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I lol'd after reading this. So when is shadow form gonna change smartguy? 😄 Briar 06:50, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The OP actually tried to change the section name and his comment when the nerf didn't occur last Thursday like he foresaw. --Silver Edge 07:09, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 

That just makes it funnier to me. >:D Briar 07:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

How amusing. And I guess we were all just posting from back in time... to the future?? "Hey, guys, when did Shadow Form finally get changed?" "Oh, that? It happened tomorrow." | 72 https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/thumb/a/ad/User_72_Truly_Random.jpg/15px-User_72_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 15:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The nerf crowd has, to my knowledge, almost entirely failed to acknowledge the fact that not everyone can play GW for 16-18 hours a day to build their fortune and kit their characters through normal means. Some people actually try to balance it with, you know, that thing called a life. Which means that they don't have as much time to invest in getting high end stuff in GW. They don't have time to do things the long way and hope against hope that some good loot might spawn on the one run they have time for on a given night. Things like permas and SF give such players the opportunity to get some of the high end stuff in the time they can play. For example, I'm the father of a four year old, so naturally I can't be in the game all the time like many of the younger players. But I still like having some of the rare and high end stuff. Having an SF sin as one of my chars helps me do that in a reasonable time frame. And no one in the nerf crowd has, to my knowledge, offered any alternative to that. --Nathe 01:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That's because there shouldn't BE an alternative. Casual players are not supposed to have the nice stuff that hardcore players have. That's what makes them casual. https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0b/User_Felix_Omni_Signature.pngelix Omni 02:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[draxynnic.3719]

ArenaNet has not said that there will be no new elite specialisations. The blogpost gave reasons why releasing elite specialisations with every expansion was not sustainable when they're planning to release expansions close to annually, but a precise reading of the post indicates nothing to rule out another set or two of elite specialisations at some point.

[EdwinLi.1284]

I think things liek new Legends for Revenant and new Utility skills for all Professions are still in play but for later "expansions" since this expansion is more of a new starts with the new storyline to go a new direction with professions each expansion now.

They just won't be Bound to new Elite Specs if they plan to add more of these things later. However, they may have to consider new Core Trait lines to account for new Utility skill additions. 

Not to mention we may have new traits for future weapons as well or older trait lines are updated to include benefits for these weapons.

I am curious how they may handle new trait lines if no more Elite specs since trait lines tend to usually have a but of focus on specific weapons.

Edited July 18, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[Raarsi.6798]

On 7/18/2023 at 6:24 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

ArenaNet has not said that there will be no new elite specialisations. The blogpost gave reasons why releasing elite specialisations with every expansion was not sustainable when they're planning to release expansions close to annually, but a precise reading of the post indicates nothing to rule out another set or two of elite specialisations at some point.

Theoretically, they could do at least one more round of elite specializations to fill in what holes are left in other professions.  I believe the major hurdle they were running into was some babble that roughly translated into "we lack the imagination to come up with anything more", when I'm pretty sure the actual reasons are that 1) they likely can't think of anything that can be forcibly tied to the main theme of a single expansion despite being unaware to the fact that players couldn't care less about that, 2) they can't seem to come up with additional unique mechanics for elite specs (which I'm not so sure it's as hard as they may claim) and 3) the current balance devs can't even do their job well enough with how many elite specs we currently have and would likely burn out what few brain cells and shreds of credibility they have left if they were forced to add nine more plates to spin.  That being said though, the uncoupling of weapons originally tied to elite specs does introduce a little more wiggle room to allow more elite specs to happen.

I've also wondered too if they could add elite specs to professions that have exclusive functions such as ones designed exclusively for aquatic or other sorts of zero-G combat or ones catering to other additional factors such as vehicular or other sorts of mechanical PvE combat.  Maybe not racial stuff though; I've always felt like that deserved individual "limited" professions (think blue mage from FFXIV) with elite specs highlighting particular lore.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 minutes ago, Raarsi.6798 said:

Theoretically, they could do at least one more round of elite specializations to fill in what holes are left in other professions.  I believe the major hurdle they were running into was some babble that roughly translated into "we lack the imagination to come up with anything more", when I'm pretty sure the actual reasons are that 1) they likely can't think of anything that can be forcibly tied to the main theme of a single expansion despite being unaware to the fact that players couldn't care less about that, 2) they can't seem to come up with additional unique mechanics for elite specs (which I'm not so sure it's as hard as they may claim) and 3) the current balance devs can't even do their job well enough with how many elite specs we currently have and would likely burn out what few brain cells and shreds of credibility they have left if they were forced to add nine more plates to spin.  That being said though, the uncoupling of weapons originally tied to elite specs does introduce a little more wiggle room to allow more elite specs to happen.

I've also wondered too if they could add elite specs to professions that have exclusive functions such as ones designed exclusively for aquatic or other sorts of zero-G combat or ones catering to other additional factors such as vehicular or other sorts of mechanical PvE combat.  Maybe not racial stuff though; I've always felt like that deserved individual "limited" professions (think blue mage from FFXIV) with elite specs highlighting particular lore.

Personally, I think it's entirely possible that it's just that they want to release annual expansions now but they think elite specialisations require more than a year of development. There were HoT elite specs hinted at in Season 2, PoF elite spec work leaked before HoT released, and willbender at least was hinted at in Icebrood Saga. It'd be entirely consistent with everything they've said and done for a new set to come in 2025 or so.

[VocalThought.9835]

6 hours ago, Raarsi.6798 said:

Theoretically, they could do at least one more round of elite specializations to fill in what holes are left in other professions.  I believe the major hurdle they were running into was some babble that roughly translated into "we lack the imagination to come up with anything more", when I'm pretty sure the actual reasons are that 1) they likely can't think of anything that can be forcibly tied to the main theme of a single expansion despite being unaware to the fact that players couldn't care less about that, 2) they can't seem to come up with additional unique mechanics for elite specs (which I'm not so sure it's as hard as they may claim) and 3) the current balance devs can't even do their job well enough with how many elite specs we currently have and would likely burn out what few brain cells and shreds of credibility they have left if they were forced to add nine more plates to spin.  That being said though, the uncoupling of weapons originally tied to elite specs does introduce a little more wiggle room to allow more elite specs to happen.

I've also wondered too if they could add elite specs to professions that have exclusive functions such as ones designed exclusively for aquatic or other sorts of zero-G combat or ones catering to other additional factors such as vehicular or other sorts of mechanical PvE combat.  Maybe not racial stuff though; I've always felt like that deserved individual "limited" professions (think blue mage from FFXIV) with elite specs highlighting particular lore.

I agree. I hope that they feel a greater sense of freedom in their creation by not tie-ing in a particular weapon.  I think if they do an an elite with a new weapon that would be all they need and they can make newer expansions that focus more on other things other than combat.

[Mediahead.3542]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:35 AM, Raarsi.6798 said:

Theoretically, they could do at least one more round of elite specializations to fill in what holes are left in other professions.  I believe the major hurdle they were running into was some babble that roughly translated into "we lack the imagination to come up with anything more", when I'm pretty sure the actual reasons are that 1) they likely can't think of anything that can be forcibly tied to the main theme of a single expansion despite being unaware to the fact that players couldn't care less about that, 2) they can't seem to come up with additional unique mechanics for elite specs (which I'm not so sure it's as hard as they may claim) and 3) the current balance devs can't even do their job well enough with how many elite specs we currently have and would likely burn out what few brain cells and shreds of credibility they have left if they were forced to add nine more plates to spin.  That being said though, the uncoupling of weapons originally tied to elite specs does introduce a little more wiggle room to allow more elite specs to happen.

I've also wondered too if they could add elite specs to professions that have exclusive functions such as ones designed exclusively for aquatic or other sorts of zero-G combat or ones catering to other additional factors such as vehicular or other sorts of mechanical PvE combat.  Maybe not racial stuff though; I've always felt like that deserved individual "limited" professions (think blue mage from FFXIV) with elite specs highlighting particular lore.

If removing weapons from future e-specs is what it takes to make the golemancer rev a reality, then I'd be okay with that. (Honestly I was having a hard time nailing down a weapon for it anyway)

[draxynnic.3719]

36 minutes ago, Mediahead.3542 said:

If removing weapons from future e-specs is what it takes to make the golemancer rev a reality, then I'd be okay with that. (Honestly I was having a hard time nailing down a weapon for it anyway)

You know, I'd toyed with the possibility of a Zinn legend in the past, but since mechanist exists, it feels a bit redundant.

[Mediahead.3542]

1 minute ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You know, I'd toyed with the possibility of a Zinn legend in the past, but since mechanist exists, it feels a bit redundant.

Same, but with both Zinn and Oola. I think what they can do, to make them different from mechanists, is to have utility skills that summon PARTS of an ancient golem from the mists to attack, like summoning a rocket arm or barrier, with the elite skill pulling the whole thing out of the mists to go on a rampage for a few seconds before self-destructing

[Raarsi.6798]

14 hours ago, Mediahead.3542 said:

Same, but with both Zinn and Oola. I think what they can do, to make them different from mechanists, is to have utility skills that summon PARTS of an ancient golem from the mists to attack, like summoning a rocket arm or barrier, with the elite skill pulling the whole thing out of the mists to go on a rampage for a few seconds before self-destructing

I was thinking more of Snaff for it since I'd think being able to mentally 1v1 an elder dragon and almost win would make for the better option.  Weapon would be rifle since you see him using one in LWS4, and the channeled skill would be controlling or (preferably) piloting Big Snaff.

[Batalix.2873]

15 hours ago, Mediahead.3542 said:

Same, but with both Zinn and Oola. I think what they can do, to make them different from mechanists, is to have utility skills that summon PARTS of an ancient golem from the mists to attack, like summoning a rocket arm or barrier, with the elite skill pulling the whole thing out of the mists to go on a rampage for a few seconds before self-destructing

I think that's almost there. It's still a little similar to Jalis hammer, Glint summon, and Archemorus.

But I think Vindi needs more identity anyway so I wouldn't hold that against a Zinn legend

I think maybe they could pull off Zinn with several mini-mechanics. Maybe one ability here you summon said arm through the mists. One where you summon some mini golems as a tracking spell. And maybe one where you are in a mist-mech suit.

I think there is potential and Zinn is far and away the best Asura option for a legend, if not a legend generally that isn't Gwen or the Lich Lord. We don't really have a sort of "arch mage" legend. Mallyx and Ventari come kind of close as effectively a dark mage and white mage. A golemancer would work. Alternatively, I think Rev would do amazing as an ice mage, maybe Svanir.