Relics Bring New Equipment to Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure

[Ashen.2907]

27 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

It's a discussion forum and open to all sides of the conversation; and some (not only me) need to provide what I consider reasonable counter arguments when certain posts call to action such as to - not directly paraphrased - "not buy gems or xpac (so we destroy Anet financially as a company)" and "Anet give us legendary relic AND a free legendary weapon box".

But I'll do as Gibson suggests and hope this thread runs its course now and we move on faster like that! 😄 

There is no, "reasonable counter argument," you can make to someone else deciding how they wish to spend their money. Every possible argument you can make about how another person chooses to spend the money they have earned is unreasonable.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Puffer Fish.1796]

Maybe I'm out of the loop because I wasn't around for a long time, but I think these changes seem reasonable and sensibly implemented, and I'm actually more interested in crafting the legendary runes/relics with this split.

I know the salt elementals on this forum are going to quote me and tell me why I'm wrong, but that's just how I feel about it. I like it and I think it's going to be fine.

[vares.8457]

5 minutes ago, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

Maybe I'm out of the loop because I wasn't around for a long time, but I think these changes seem reasonable and sensibly implemented, and I'm actually more interested in crafting the legendary runes/relics with this split.

I know the salt elementals on this forum are going to quote me and tell me why I'm wrong, but that's just how I feel about it. I like it and I think it's going to be fine.

I feel the same. I am actually looking forward to the new relic system and crafting the legendary relic. I have seven legendary runes but also more than enough gold and materials so crafting something new is not a big deal. 

There are just some that are overreacting and are taking this minor change too serious. This thread should be for a discussion about the relic system but instead they are flooding it with their tears. Unfortunately they are spamming every thread with their crying but they are just a small group. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by vares.8457

[Essence Snow.3194]

3 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

I feel the same. I am actually looking forward to the new relic system and crafting the legendary relic. I have seven legendary runes but also more than enough gold and materials so crafting something new is not a big deal. 

There are just some that are overreacting and are taking this minor change too serious. Unfortunately they are spamming every thread with their crying but they are just a small group. 

While leg rune owners are a small portion of the population, I'd wager that a majority of them do not like losing functionality.

[Puffer Fish.1796]

7 minutes ago, Essence Snow.3194 said:

While leg rune owners are a small portion of the population, I'd wager that a majority of them do not like losing functionality.

Man, no wonder anet abandoned the forums. There's no winning, is there?

Change nothing--people rage.

Change anything--people rage.

Yes, legendary rune owners are going to have less functionality with their runes...because they're overhauling the entire rune system. Anet has implemented a solution, and even providing progress toward collecting the new relics as compensation for leg rune owners.

Short of flat out giving every legendary rune owner a 1:1 compensation of a free relic for each rune they already own, what do you want them to do?

Edited July 21, 2023 by Puffer Fish.1796
I accidentally a word

[Ashen.2907]

7 minutes ago, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

Man, no wonder anet abandoned the forums. There's no winning, is there?

Change nothing--people rage.

Change anything--people rage.

Yes, legendary runes are going to have less functionality with their runes...because they're overhauling the entire rune system. Anet has implemented a solution, and even providing progress toward collecting the new relics as compensation for leg rune owners.

Short of flat out giving every legendary rune owner a 1:1 compensation of a free relic for each rune they already own, what do you want them to do?

People (with very few exceptions) are not raging because there is change. People are upset because Anet is taking something that they paid for away with the intention of reselling it to them. Many of those who've spoken against the announced implementation of the relic system have stated in one way or another that the concept of the system is fine. Some really like the concept.

As stated elsewhere, disliking the details of one specific change is not at all the same as being opposed to change.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Essence Snow.3194]

Just now, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

Man, no wonder anet abandoned the forums. There's no winning, is there?

Change nothing--people rage.

Change anything--people rage.

Yes, legendary runes are going to have less functionality with their runes...because they're overhauling the entire rune system. Anet has implemented a solution, and even providing progress toward collecting the new relics as compensation for leg rune owners.

Short of flat out giving every legendary rune owner a 1:1 compensation of a free relic for each rune they already own, what do you want them to do?

Let someone take something from you, replace it with something of less value to you, and then have ppl tell you your a being difficult b/c you don't like it. There's no upside to it.

 

[Puffer Fish.1796]

Just now, Essence Snow.3194 said:

Let someone take something from you, replace it with something of less value to you, and then have ppl tell you your a being difficult b/c you don't like it. There's no upside to it.

The difference here is that I've been a software developer so I have some external context for why they may make some of the choices they make. If I'd worked to make the existing runes and was just told that they won't have the special effect anymore and I need to make more things to get that...that's fine. I like collecting mats and crafting. That's why I'm making a set of asc armor for each weight, and why I'm hyped for the open world leg armor.

They can't just give every leg rune owner a matching relic, that would be too much compensation. Giving significant progress toward unlocking the relics seems sufficient while still giving people content to play with.

I genuinely don't see what the problem is. It's a good compromise.

[mov.1246]

I own 7 legendary runes. I crafted these because i never wanted to care anymore about buying new runes...

I think relics on its own are a good idea and give more flexibility. But execution how are legendary rune owners are handled is a bit sad.

While we still dont know how much "significant progress" is, it bothers me that i have to wait until 2024 to craft my legendary relic. I dont want to waste a year of farming and using exotic relics in the meantime.

I had an idea that the legendary relic could be obtained in 2 ways.

1st: a collection where you need to craft 7 legendary runes rewards you with legendary relic.

2nd: legendary crafting with the typical materials like clovers, t6 materials, ecto, charmes and symbols.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

I like the idea and change, but to me this makes legendary runes even less interesting.

Currently, legendary runes are way too expensive in my opinion.
I got everything else to legendary level, even the three sets of armor, except the runes.
Buying multiple sets of superior runes for all my characters is still much cheaper and hardly less convenient thanks to build templates.

Now, with relics, the runes bring less for the same price.
Since the main fraction of the price comes from gifts of condensated magic, might and clovers, it will likely remain the same.
So, a set of seven legendary runes for 380g each is about 2660g for a stat increase in the order of a chest armor (~400g).

To me, the 6th rune bonus (and 4th back then) was always the main reason of the runes.
Especially with the legendary armory I will try to get my hands on a legendary relic once it is release.

[Puffer Fish.1796]

Just now, Dediggefedde.4961 said:

I like the idea and change, but to me this makes legendary runes even less interesting.

Currently, legendary runes are way too expensive in my opinion.
I got everything else to legendary level, even the three sets of armor, except the runes.
Buying multiple sets of superior runes for all my characters is still much cheaper and hardly less convenient thanks to build templates.

Now, with relics, the runes bring less for the same price.
Since the main fraction of the price comes from gifts of condensated magic, might and clovers, it will likely remain the same.
So, a set of seven legendary runes for 380g each is about 2660g for a stat increase in the order of a chest armor (~400g).

To me, the 6th rune bonus (and 4th back then) was always the main reason of the runes.
Especially with the legendary armory I will try to get my hands on a legendary relic once it is release.

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for your thoughts, I understand better now. Yeah, if they don't reduce the cost of the runes now that they don't do as much, that's going to be kind of painful.

[Ashen.2907]

19 minutes ago, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

The difference here is that I've been a software developer so I have some external context for why they may make some of the choices they make. If I'd worked to make the existing runes and was just told that they won't have the special effect anymore and I need to make more things to get that...that's fine. I like collecting mats and crafting. That's why I'm making a set of asc armor for each weight, and why I'm hyped for the open world leg armor.

They can't just give every leg rune owner a matching relic, that would be too much compensation. Giving significant progress toward unlocking the relics seems sufficient while still giving people content to play with.

I genuinely don't see what the problem is. It's a good compromise.

Why is giving people what they already paid for, "too much compensation?" 

Offering someone a discount to repurchase something they have already paid for hardly seems like a compromise. Particularly when ANet is taking the paid for funtionality away immediately, hard date announcement, very specific about what they will take away....but is being vague and indeterminate about when, how, etc they might allow players to repurchase that functionality.

[Puffer Fish.1796]

8 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Why is giving people what they already paid for, "too much compensation?" 

Offering someone a discount to repurchase something they have already paid for hardly seems like a compromise. Particularly when ANet is taking the paid for funtionality away immediately, hard date announcement, very specific about what they will take away....but is being vague and indeterminate about when, how, etc they might allow players to repurchase that functionality.

Software development, especially on a legacy framework like GW2 that never has downtime, can be really slow. It's common practice to give approximate time periods for release instead of a specific date upon first announcement of a big feature. They are also likely still verifying what level of progress is appropriate for leg rune owners. 

Anet is still made of people. And people's work takes time.

This isn't "you bought something, we took part of it away, and are making you pay again". This is "you bought something, we have changed how that thing works for everyone, and because of that you have lost one feature. As compensation have been given a voucher to make acquiring the new version of that feature easier".

That's....that's just how business works.

In a similar analogy, let's say you buy a car that has a free year of SiriusXM radio. After that year you get a software update so you can't use SiriusXM anymore but the manufacturer gives you a 20% off code for a new subscription. That seems fair, right?

I don't see how that's any different than what's going on here. Except that y'all are acting like you bought leg runes with real money.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Puffer Fish.1796
observation added

[vandrefalk.6823]

8 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Why is giving people what they already paid for, "too much compensation?" 

But with the new selectable relic effects, what you previously paid for was a fixed bonus effect when you freely swapped runes on your leg runes. Relics are new for everyone; and legendary runes will allow the free selection of stat increases.

It's not like you already had 6 runes of the scholar with a different bonus effect than the one the runes provided as of now (e.g. "increase strike damage by 5% while your health is above 90%").

I'm guessing it was too difficult technically for them to make a relic that just copies the previous bonus effect of the runes you have equipped, otherwise that would've been the ideal compensation - with then legendary relic providing a free choice.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Dondarrion.2748

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

Hello all and happy Friday! I've been keeping an eye on this thread and have been working with members of several development teams to round up answers to frequently asked questions that I've seen. (Huge thanks to everyone on the team who helped me with answers!) Answers are below, but I've also added them to my original post so they're easy to find and share. I'm going to get caught up on the thread this morning and while there are things we can't discuss right now, if I see more questions that can be answered I'll work with the team on those and try to provide more replies. 

As always, thank you all for continuing to discuss and provide feedback--we appreciate it! 

FAQ:

• What happens to rune slot 6?
  • Slot 6 will be another stat bonus. Some runes already have a stat bonus here, and those that don’t will have one added. 
• Can I equip 5 runes and +1 of another set?
  • You can, as you can now, but this will be giving up the 6-slot bonus of one rune set for the 1 slot bonus of another.
• Will relics that launch cover all the special effect from each 6-rune set?
  • Not all existing 6-slot rune bonuses will be available as relics at launch. We will continue adding additional core relics over time as part of our ongoing commitment to improving our core game features.
• Can you explain the note about “choice of three core relics”?
  • When we say "your choice of three relics,” we mean that you’ll get to choose a total of three relics (exact number subject to change, but that’s our current plan) from among the available core relics.
• There are runes that have the same exact stat combinations up to 5 runes and then the 6th rune is different. For example, the runes of the pack, fireworks and surging. Now the rune of the pack actually gives stats (+125 precision) for the 6th rune. But the other two only have the special ability and give no stat bonus. Or does the 25% increase in movement speed count as a stat increase?
  • In cases like this, we’ll be making sure that runes with duplicate 1-5 bonuses have unique 6 slot stats. In this example, 25% movement speed will count as a stat increase and will be seen on a handful of rune 6 pieces.
• Will you be retiring any runes (due to duplicates or otherwise)?
  • No. All of the existing rune sets will have unique stat combinations and none of them will be removed.

[idpersona.3810]

34 minutes ago, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

They can't just give every leg rune owner a matching relic, that would be too much compensation. Giving significant progress toward unlocking the relics seems sufficient while still giving people content to play with.

I genuinely don't see what the problem is. It's a good compromise.

It's also a matter of the relic not coming out for 6-12 months. So in the meantime, legendary rune holders will still have to participate in the gear farm if they want to keep up. And that was the whole point of the rune crafting in the first place. As stated, runes are more expensive than they're worth now. It's going to be much worse after SotO launches since there's only a handful of viable stat combinations you could want. And without the 6th bonus, as of now the price difference can be a few silver vs a gold or 2 per rune.

29 minutes ago, mov.1246 said:

I own 7 legendary runes. I crafted these because i never wanted to care anymore about buying new runes...

I think relics on its own are a good idea and give more flexibility. But execution how are legendary rune owners are handled is a bit sad.

While we still dont know how much "significant progress" is, it bothers me that i have to wait until 2024 to craft my legendary relic. I dont want to waste a year of farming and using exotic relics in the meantime.

I had an idea that the legendary relic could be obtained in 2 ways.

1st: a collection where you need to craft 7 legendary runes rewards you with legendary relic.

2nd: legendary crafting with the typical materials like clovers, t6 materials, ecto, charmes and symbols.

All of this. Especially the highlighted bit. Lots of the players complaining aren't specifically complaining about the change, but about how it's being implemented. On it's own, most (obviously not all) players on here see the positive potential in the new relic/rune system.

[Puffer Fish.1796]

Thank you @Rubi Bayer.8493! I know you guys are working hard on the back end to make sure this overhaul goes as smoothly as it can for us.

[idpersona.3810]

3 minutes ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hello all and happy Friday! I've been keeping an eye on this thread and have been working with members of several development teams to round up answers to frequently asked questions that I've seen. (Huge thanks to everyone on the team who helped me with answers!) Answers are below, but I've also added them to my original post so they're easy to find and share. I'm going to get caught up on the thread this morning and while there are things we can't discuss right now, if I see more questions that can be answered I'll work with the team on those and try to provide more replies. 

As always, thank you all for continuing to discuss and provide feedback--we appreciate it! 

FAQ:

• What happens to rune slot 6?
  • Slot 6 will be another stat bonus. Some runes already have a stat bonus here, and those that don’t will have one added. 
• Can I equip 5 runes and +1 of another set?
  • You can, as you can now, but this will be giving up the 6-slot bonus of one rune set for the 1 slot bonus of another.
• Will relics that launch cover all the special effect from each 6-rune set?
  • Not all existing 6-slot rune bonuses will be available as relics at launch. We will continue adding additional core relics over time as part of our ongoing commitment to improving our core game features.
• Can you explain the note about “choice of three core relics”?
  • When we say "your choice of three relics,” we mean that you’ll get to choose a total of three relics (exact number subject to change, but that’s our current plan) from among the available core relics.
• There are runes that have the same exact stat combinations up to 5 runes and then the 6th rune is different. For example, the runes of the pack, fireworks and surging. Now the rune of the pack actually gives stats (+125 precision) for the 6th rune. But the other two only have the special ability and give no stat bonus. Or does the 25% increase in movement speed count as a stat increase?
  • In cases like this, we’ll be making sure that runes with duplicate 1-5 bonuses have unique 6 slot stats. In this example, 25% movement speed will count as a stat increase and will be seen on a handful of rune 6 pieces.
• Will you be retiring any runes (due to duplicates or otherwise)?
  • No. All of the existing rune sets will have unique stat combinations and none of them will be removed.

Genuinely: thank you for keeping an eye on the thread and trying to keep us updating on the information you can provide.

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, Dondarrion.2748 said:

But with the new selectable relic effects, what you previously paid for was a fixed bonus effect when you freely swapped runes on your leg runes. Relics are new for everyone; and legendary runes will allow the free selection of stat increases.

It's not like you already had 6 runes of the scholar with a different bonus effect than the one the runes provided.

I'm guessing it was too difficult technically for them to make a relic that just copies the previous bonus effect of the runes you have equipped, otherwise that would've been the ideal compensation - with then legendary relic providing a free choice.

Still, the person who bought a full set of legendary runes (over $70) did so knowing that they included sixth tier bonuses. When you buy a package that lists something as included in the package, then you have paid for that something.

ANet is choosing to take that something, the sixth tier bonus, away. It is within their right to do so. I am not arguing otherwise. But, if they want to placate those whom they are planning to deprive of the value of their purchase then the onus is on them. They created the problem. They created the complexity or specifics that make it difficult for them to restore what the player paid for. If it is too hard for them to address the matter in a satisfactory manner for those paying customers who are negatively impacted...they should have considered that before designing the system, ajd should be prepared for the backlash.

 

 

[Puffer Fish.1796]

1 minute ago, idpersona.3810 said:

only a handful of viable stat combinations you could want

That's assuming the majority of players care about clinging to viability as opposed to trying new builds to find what works for how they play. The meta doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all for everyone that's not in competitive settings.

[Essence Snow.3194]

Just now, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

That's assuming the majority of players care about clinging to viability as opposed to trying new builds to find what works for how they play. The meta doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all for everyone that's not in competitive settings.

That's precisely what they are losing. They are losing the ability to try out every combination they want without having obtain more gear.  If you say you have 7 leg runes and do not understand that...then I have to doubt you actually have them.

[Acheron.1580]

3 hours ago, Essence Snow.3194 said:

So if 7 leg runes provide "significant" progress towards a leg relic......that implies ppl with 6 will definitely have to grind a decent amount to regain the functionality. No bueno

If "significant progress" is just achievement stuff done for me and not mats, it'll be so kittening useless. The main point is the devalued runes, it should be mats towards the legendary relic at the bare minimum. And you know, not months to a year down the line.

[idpersona.3810]

1 minute ago, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

That's assuming the majority of players care about clinging to viability as opposed to trying new builds to find what works for how they play. The meta doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all for everyone that's not in competitive settings.

I mostly agree. In my experience (and this is just from my own personal interactions) most of the players I encounter don't like to just play around with builds. Without multiple pieces of legendary gear, it's just not that easy to do. So they grab a build/equipment list and buy gear once or twice and go on about their gaming time.

[Puffer Fish.1796]

Just now, Essence Snow.3194 said:

That's precisely what they are losing. They are losing the ability to try out every combination they want without having obtain more gear.  If you say you have 7 leg runes and do not understand that...then I have to doubt you actually have them.

Correct, I don't have the leg runes. I never said I have the leg runes--another person who quoted me said they have the leg runes.

I understand your point. I just don't know what everyone expects them to do with the complaints of "you will take away a feature I did grinding for and now we have to re-grind for it!"

[Ashen.2907]

5 minutes ago, Puffer Fish.1796 said:

That's assuming the majority of players care about clinging to viability as opposed to trying new builds to find what works for how they play. The meta doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all for everyone that's not in competitive settings.

Doesn't "viable" essentially mean "what works?"