Pre-Personal Story / Season 1 players should get Original Lion's Arch

[Xynxycs.6718]

This isn't going to be a popular post (not that any of my posts are), but this one is for new players. Y'know, the crowd that Anet desperately need to attract for the game to continue to have any kind of success.

New players shouldn't only have access to Original Lion's Arch through an unlockable in season 1. At a time when it's crucial to get new players invested and onboard with the story (after all, that's what Anet is offering with each expansion), they slam into a brick wall of story disconnect. Take the missions after The Battle Of Lion's Arch. "I'm saving Lion's Arch! Oh wait, this isn't Lion's Arch. Where am I?"

It's a small detail but it's absolutely crucial to the presentation. It's embarrassing that anyone has to go to the wiki to read spoilers to understand what the heck is up with the central city in the game.

Okay, feel free to pummel me with your worst insults.

[Dante.1508]

I hated the first GW2 lions arch... then they destroyed it and made the new one.. I hated the new one even more..

Edited July 30, 2023 by Dante.1508

[Danikat.8537]

I've been thinking about this recently as well. I get that Anet don't want to split the playerbase any more than necessary and allowing new and old players to mix in one of the main cities is an important part of that, but it is pretty jarring when you get onto the story steps in LA and suddenly you're in a completely different city which is somehow still LA, then later on you see that weird story-only city get destroyed and told that it was later replaced with the real one you normally see.

I'm sure new players are capable of finding out what happened, but even when I already know what happened and why it's different it's a weird distraction and makes the story seem disjointed. (Also I really don't like the sepia effect, so I keep changing my post-processing setting.)

I don't think they'd revert to the old LA for everyone (I suspect they wanted to redesign it anyway and used the story to explain the change) but since they have brought it back as a seperate instance I think it's worth reconsidering what's the best way to handle it.

I can't think of a good way to do it though. The obvious solution is characters start off with the old LA and it changes to the new one (with the old one available via the pass) once they've completed Season 1, but that causes the problem of splitting the playerbase and if there were problems with it (performance maybe?) those would probably come back as well. Maybe they could add an NPC who allows you to move between the old and new versions whenever you want (probably the Mist Stranger), but that would only help players who know to look for them.

[Parasite.5389]

the problem there is you're now segregating players on per character level; "oh, you want to meet up in Lions arch? sorry, this character hasn't done their persoanl story"

[Xynxycs.6718]

13 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I've been thinking about this recently as well. I get that Anet don't want to split the playerbase any more than necessary and allowing new and old players to mix in one of the main cities is an important part of that, but it is pretty jarring when you get onto the story steps in LA and suddenly you're in a completely different city which is somehow still LA, then later on you see that weird story-only city get destroyed and told that it was later replaced with the real one you normally see.

I'm sure new players are capable of finding out what happened, but even when I already know what happened and why it's different it's a weird distraction and makes the story seem disjointed. (Also I really don't like the sepia effect, so I keep changing my post-processing setting.)

I don't think they'd revert to the old LA for everyone (I suspect they wanted to redesign it anyway and used the story to explain the change) but since they have brought it back as a seperate instance I think it's worth reconsidering what's the best way to handle it.

I can't think of a good way to do it though. The obvious solution is characters start off with the old LA and it changes to the new one (with the old one available via the pass) once they've completed Season 1, but that causes the problem of splitting the playerbase and if there were problems with it (performance maybe?) those would probably come back as well. Maybe they could add an NPC who allows you to move between the old and new versions whenever you want (probably the Mist Stranger), but that would only help players who know to look for them.

I think that's exactly the solution. Maybe when a party groups up and there's a pre-season 1 player everyone gets put in OLA. Players could also receive a message via mail about the mist stranger, and he could appear on the map with an icon.

 

4 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

the problem there is you're now segregating players on per character level; "oh, you want to meet up in Lions arch? sorry, this character hasn't done their persoanl story"

 

I think this is easily remedied: when post-season 1 characters meet up with pre-season one characters, they can just right-click their friend's name and "travel to Original Lion's Arch." They already do this with servers and it doesn't segregate anyone. This wouldn't devalue the Lion's Pride item, either, because it would act as a city portal stone.

This solution isn't any worse than what new players currently have, which is "you want to know what's going on in this primarily story-driven game? Look at the wiki I guess"

Edited July 30, 2023 by Xynxycs.6718

[Parasite.5389]

3 minutes ago, Xynxycs.6718 said:

This solution isn't any worse than what new players currently have, which is "you want to know what's going on in this primarily story-driven game? Look at the wiki I guess"

or you know... Play through Season 1 or watch the Scarlet wars cinematic

Edited July 30, 2023 by Parasite.5389

[Xynxycs.6718]

1 minute ago, Parasite.5389 said:

or you know... Play through Season 1

I'm talking about hooking players from the personal story, where it's often a make-or-break moment for player retention. I'm talking about the disconnect between seeing new LA and original LA during the personal story where you travel to New LA and go into a story instance and see Original LA then finish the instance and go back to New LA. I'm talking about the player experiencing the mother of all spoilers for the next season when it's entirely unnecessary. 

Do you understand, or do you need further clarification?

[Parasite.5389]

i understand, i just think it's completely unessesary

[Xynxycs.6718]

Just now, Parasite.5389 said:

i understand, i just think it's completely unessesary

Your input is noted. Have a nice day.

[Tachenon.5270]

Tyrian Time is all wibbley wobbley, especially in Kessex Hills, where a new character can stand amongst the ruins of a tower that hasn't been built yet.

[Xynxycs.6718]

23 minutes ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Tyrian Time is all wibbley wobbley, especially in Kessex Hills, where a new character can stand amongst the ruins of a tower that hasn't been built yet.

A wizard did it.

Wizard!

[Randulf.7614]

I’m not against the idea, but I’d be generous if I guessed 1% of new players either noticed or cared. I’d expect the idea of one unified city vastly outweighs the need for consistency in the ambient narrative for most

But, I wouldn’t object to it either

[Teknomancer.4895]

What you're suggesting is kind of like the distinction between GW1 pre-Searing and post-Searing, and it does make some sense from a base player "new to the story" perspective. It's just far too late for that now.

It would have to be set up as its own social zone, with some mechanism for players beyond that point to visit the old zone (an NPC at EotN serves a similar function for the different versions of that location). It really would split up the playerbase for a questionable premise. I don't think that could be made to work, given the point in the timeline when all of that LA/Scarlet stuff happens. Players would end up in pre-Scarlet LA for rather a long time before joining the rest of the playerbase.

No, for better or worse that war was a massive meta that made irreversible changes to the world. If your character was born after that war happened, well you'll probably just have to settle for simulations and stories about what it was like from the old-timers, just like irl. That's probably why they moved away from that world design concept of major permanent changes to existing maps in the first place.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Teknomancer.4895
typo

[Xynxycs.6718]

1 minute ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

What you're suggesting is kind of like the distinction between GW1 pre-Searing and post-Searing, and it does make some sense from a base player "new to the story" perspective. It's just far too late for that now.

It would have to be set up as its own social zone, with some mechanism for players beyond that point to visit the old zone (an NPC at HotN serves a similar function for the different versions of that location). It really would split up the playerbase for a questionable premise. I don't think that could be made to work, given the point in the timeline when all of that LA/Scarlet stuff happens. Players would end up in pre-Scarlet LA for rather a long time before joining the rest of the playerbase.

No, for better or worse that war was a massive meta that made irreversible changes to the world. If your character was born after that war happened, well you'll probably just have to settle for simulations and stories about what it was like from the old-timers, just like irl. That's probably why they moved away from that world design concept of major permanent changes to existing maps in the first place.

I'm sorry, but this "it'll split the player base!" argument holds about as much water as a cannonball. Every new map they add "splits the base." Every expansion and (former) living world patch. It's a questionable premise to you because you're good, you were there, you already know. You have a good grasp on things. New players don't. It's all about presentation.

Nothing is too late. If they wanted to take a serious look at the new player experience and if they decided that it was throwing too many people off... they could change it. New players don't have to settle. They can take one look at this wacky decision, and all the other bizarre/outdated early leveling experiences and bounce.

It's just an awful situation for new players. It's nice that you don't care, but as a vet, try to imagine what it's like for a brand new player (not good).

[Teknomancer.4895]

2 minutes ago, Xynxycs.6718 said:

It's nice that you don't care, but as a vet, try to imagine what it's like for a brand new player (not good).

Exactly, I care so little that I took the time to write something out. 🙄

Shoe on the other foot: as a vet, try to imagine what it would be like for said brand new player to find answers/mentors/lfg in basically a walled-off version of LA where the "vets" as you put it are unlikely to be spending much (if any) time. Not good -- because the playerbase is split.

But you're right, I don't care.

[Xynxycs.6718]

17 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Exactly, I care so little that I took the time to write something out. 🙄

Shoe on the other foot: as a vet, try to imagine what it would be like for said brand new player to find answers/mentors/lfg in basically a walled-off version of LA where the "vets" as you put it are unlikely to be spending much (if any) time. Not good -- because the playerbase is split.

But you're right, I don't care.

The difference between your point and mine is that new players are definitely going to care about the story if they plan to stick around—whereas your "but what if they need to talk to vets" is a hypothetical. Granted, it does happen, and regularly, but it will happen much less frequently than new players playing a story step that involves LA.

Also, vets will have access to Lion's Pride. Anet could merge the map chat so that everyone can hear and talk to one another while in LA.

[...]

You know what, having thought about it, maybe the only players that are still around in Guild Wars 2 are the ones that are willing to ignore the story. Maybe the story is so bad that only the truly epically brainstemmed (like me) could really enjoy the game for its plot.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Xynxycs.6718

[Endaris.1452]

It would be nice if old LA was regularly available but through a different mechanism than story as a trigger.

Basically add 2 new map layers for LA with one being old LA, one being destroyed LA and depending on which layer you select the waypoint from, it puts you into an instance of that version. Or any other hard-to-messup but still usable UI feature on the world map. Send a mail when they're joining LA for the first time to explain the versions and put them into the old one and then everyone is free to pick where to go. Those who want the story immersion will take it, those that just prefer the older maps can also take them, none is excluded and the playerbase split is soft, not hard, no more or less than people having different preferences for the racial cities - or god forbid, VIP lounges, an extra split that anet is introducing on their own!

I started playing near the end of LS2 so I know destroyed LA and personally it took me quite a while to figure out why the city was so messed up to begin with although I really liked the theme. Obviously a worse cutoff with no S1 and not even a cinematic available but with LS1 now being available, I'd definitely appreciate old and destroyed LA being regularly available.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Endaris.1452

[Randulf.7614]

43 minutes ago, Xynxycs.6718 said:

I hate gamers.

Either they lizard-brain their way through content with a pod on the background and wonder why they're depressed or they cynically post about other people not caring about the storytelling craft.

Why does anyone bother calling it "role playing" anymore? Why bother paying voice actors or artists or writers? Let's just AI to design loot treadmills, since apparently nobody notices or cares about "ambient stories."

Thank you for your valuable contribution to the conversation.

I don’t actually disagree with you. But, everyone plays for different reasons, it’s just that ambient storytelling and consistency seem to always be the lesser priority for most gamers. Would it annoy me as a new player? Probably. I don’t like missing out on something and I’m a massive fan of ambient storytelling - but I regard myself as a minority in that and always have done. It’s a shame, but look how many people want story mode reduced or skippable because they hate it. I’ve played with many new players and not one has been interested in the slightest in this kind of thing.

You don’t need the snark by the way. I was actually on your side despite trying to explain why other players likely don’t care. It doesn’t help feedback at all. I would have no objection to your idea being added whatsoever

[Tachenon.5270]

Lion's Arch, Kessex Hills, Divinity's Reach -- what other areas got kitten-slapped time-stamped by LS1?

Maybe through some strange dev-ine (or dev-ilish, depending on one's pov) magic, the old versions could be restored as the defaults for people playing the base game. Playing through LS1, buying an expansion, or buying some kinda 'Future' pass thingy in the gem store could unlock the new versions. I dunno. Probably another one of those 'Well, gosh, I'd rather they spent time and resources on (reverb) SOMETHING ELSE (/reverb)' deals.

[Xynxycs.6718]

Snark? Well, my argument is that new players need original LA. If

1 hour ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I’d be generous if I guessed 1% of new players either noticed or cared

isn't snark, I don't know what is.

Why do you keep saying "ambient storytelling?" It's an integral part of the main narrative. A place can be a character in itself, and LA is a big character in the personal story and in season 1. It isn't something that the player *might* notice. It's central to the plot.

[Endaris.1452]

5 minutes ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Lion's Arch, Kessex Hills, Divinity's Reach -- what other areas got kitten-slapped time-stamped by LS1?

Maybe through some strange dev-ine (or dev-ilish, depending on one's pov) magic, the old versions could be restored as the defaults for people playing the base game. Playing through LS1, buying an expansion, or buying some kinda 'Future' pass thingy in the gem store could unlock the new versions. I dunno. Probably another one of those 'Well, gosh, I'd rather they spent time and resources on (reverb) SOMETHING ELSE (/reverb)' deals.

Yeah, discussed this in the past but for those maps, the player split would actually be affecting people more and it's always only a small part of the map that is even changed. For LA it's more than half the map so getting an alternative instance seems much more reasonable there.

For the other maps it also doesn't feel quite as impactful as there are many kind of "random enemy factions", so the toxic alliance never seemed particularly out of place to me as a new player (except why the heck were they so strong, haha) and I kind of associated them with the destroyed Fort Salma too I guess. Can't really forget LS2 branding either. Going into the level 40 story however and being in a completely unknown place all of a sudden? Definitely more jarring.

[Randulf.7614]

40 minutes ago, Xynxycs.6718 said:

Snark? Well, my argument is that new players need original LA. If

isn't snark, I don't know what is.

Why do you keep saying "ambient storytelling?" It's an integral part of the main narrative. A place can be a character in itself, and LA is a big character in the personal story and in season 1. It isn't something that the player *might* notice. It's central to the plot.

The bit you quoted wasn’t even remotely snarky. I’m simply conveying I believe most new players do not care. And I stand by that--I dont think most players are bothered about something in the early game, when I know a great deal of players skip the early game and go straight to the expacs for the features (mounts etc) and don’t always return or are happy to ignore the old story. My observations - anecdotal as they are - are that players are more interested in playing where the newer, cooler, populated content is, often jumping around the story out of order. If my belief in that being a wider fact is true, then central narratives are not something they care about. Thus why I guesstimate such a low number of new players caring. It’s not provable either way, but i feel confident in my assessment nonetheless.

The issue also is, because so many players start in core then go straight to PoF or Cantha or HoT, which LA do they get? If they’re not interested in the story, they may want the standard “new la”. Are we suggesting they get la based on journal activation? Or even they skip to PoF, they can’t get new la until S1 is done? That seems rather clumsy and messy. A single LA is much cleaner and easier for everyone, even if creates a weird plot hole

Theres still lots of missing central narrative missing. We don’t have Ancient Karka, Lost Shores, Canach origins, Mad King story from 2012, the Tequatl hunt and some other parts of s1. Most of that needs restoring as well, but Anet have stated it’s not a priority. If they don’t regard actual missing story as something in need of restoring in full, then I guess they don’t think it’s necs for an old la-new la story transition either.

Guesswork and opinion of course

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Xynxycs.6718]

17 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

The bit you quoted wasn’t even remotely snarky. I’m simply conveying I believe most new players do not care. And I stand by that--I dont think most players are bothered about something in the early game, when I know a great deal of players skip the early game and go straight to the expacs for the features (mounts etc) and don’t always return or are happy to ignore the old story. My observations - anecdotal as they are - are that players are more interested in playing where the newer, cooler, populated content is, often jumping around the story out of order. If my belief in that being a wider fact is true, then central narratives are not something they care about. Thus why I guesstimate such a low number of new players caring. It’s not provable either way, but i feel confident in my assessment nonetheless.

The issue also is, because so many players start in core then go straight to PoF or Cantha or HoT, which LA do they get? If they’re not interested in the story, they may want the standard “new la”. Are we suggesting they get la based on journal activation? Or even they skip to PoF, they can’t get new la until S1 is done? That seems rather clumsy and messy. A single LA is much cleaner and easier for everyone, even if creates a weird plot hole

Theres still lots of missing central narrative missing. We don’t have Ancient Karka, Lost Shores, Canach origins, Mad King story from 2012, the Tequatl hunt and some other parts of s1. Most of that needs restoring as well, but Anet have stated it’s not a priority. If they don’t regard actual missing story as something in need of restoring in full, then I guess they don’t think it’s necs for an old la-new la story transition either.

Guesswork and opinion of course

 

 

You made up a figure in your head and just felt like throwing it into the discourse with baseless confidence, gotcha. Thank you for your guesswork and anecdotes.

How about if they do the content after S1 they see new LA, otherwise they have original LA until they finish the last episode of S1? Is is so much to ask that players have to beat a stage in a video game to unlock the next level? You're acting as though players couldn't just meet up elsewhere, or as someone in the thread already suggested, have them talk to NPC to bridge the gap between versions. Heck, I'd be happy if players were shuffled into the story-appropriate version of the map based on their progress first then have an NPC around to ferry them between versions no matter where they were in the story. Fine by me.

Finally, I'm not talking about little bits of content here and there, I'm talking about a pillar of the story.

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Xynxycs.6718
expanding on the NPC

[Jin.8501]

5 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

the problem there is you're now segregating players on per character level; "oh, you want to meet up in Lions arch? sorry, this character hasn't done their persoanl story"

Doesn't matter much, most use the mistlock anyways 

[Parasite.5389]

35 minutes ago, Jin.8501 said:

Doesn't matter much, most use the mistlock anyways 

I dunno, EU LA has a decent population, but i think more people have moved over to Arborstone and we'll probably see a similar migration to the Wizards tower.
which is another reason why forcing players throughh old LA would be a bad idea, eventually it'll be a ghost town, it's basically Pre-searing Ascalon.