It's time to unnerf Shiro in PvE

[Shao.7236]

14 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Your post seems to create this weird vacuum that you believe powers are not good enough or being used enough because they just aren't good. You seem to ignore the erroneous cost tied to them that practically leaves the revenant powerless for several painful seconds. Things would see more use if they weren't so expensive. You would see more calls of anguish, more revenants willing to use jade winds, more revenants who use RotGD if they weren't so expensive to use and pretty much putting the rev on the backfoot for using them. If you want a proper analogy, using some of the rev powers would be like every other profession getting a 3 to 6 seconds CD slapped onto their powers for using one of their skills.

I've never had issue with Revenant skills, I think they are fine as they are right now. I can agree to some improvements but most of the suggestions I can't never agree because it strays too far from what I know Revenant to be and having it too easy is not something I'm looking for because after that people complain and anet does the horrible job of over nerfing without care.

I use RotGD all the time and never found myself to think the skill is too bad or too good. I've actually had dedicated posts to that topic and at most, the cast could be slightly faster otherwise it's great as is and has great synergy with all legends.

Guess no one wants to swap legends when they use the best legend skills? That's part of the profession and it doesn't hinder my ability to function. If the average player always use Herald it's no wonder they don't like it though.

I do know that I will never touch Vindicator in any serious manner for as long as it has 2 evades because it's an insult to Core altogether.

  

20 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

From memory, on release, PT was 20 and Riposting Shadows was 15, but PvP concerns pushed them up before ArenaNet relented on skill splitting. That, and reducing Jade Winds to 40 or 35, would probably do the trick.

They can change the costs but IO is always going to be meta in the end. There's just no helping Shiro's design, I would rather see more effects from the skills for some real change.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

8 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I've never had issue with Revenant skills, I think they are fine as they are right now. I can agree to some improvements but most of the suggestions I can't never agree because it strays too far from what I know Revenant to be and having it too easy is not something I'm looking for because after that people complain and anet does the horrible job of over nerfing without care.

I use RotGD all the time and never found myself to think the skill is too bad or too good. I've actually had dedicated posts to that topic and at most, the cast could be slightly faster otherwise it's great as is and has great synergy with all legends.

Guess no one wants to swap legends when they use the best legend skills? That's part of the profession and it doesn't hinder my ability to function. If the average player always use Herald it's no wonder they don't like it though.

I do know that I will never touch Vindicator in any serious manner for as long as it has 2 evades because it's an insult to Core altogether.

  

They can change the costs but IO is always going to be meta in the end. There's just no helping Shiro's design, I would rather see more effects from the skills for some real change.

Your reply is as baffling as it is just one giant assumption and attempt at gatekeeping on your part. I mean it's clear you didn't read what I wrote, though I think it's quite amusing that you try to capstone it by attacking vindicator too with some bizarre rant and some weird ideology that clearly isn't true either.

And as far as revenant skills go and believing they won't change that's just something that isn't going to be true no matter how much you say it. Things are changing, and given how little the revenant changed in these big balance updates I doubt says to the balance of the class and more to the fact they might have something bigger in mind if not a rework down the line, they just don't have a clear idea how to tackle it yet.

[Shao.7236]

6 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Your reply is as baffling as it is just one giant assumption and attempt at gatekeeping on your part. I mean it's clear you didn't read what I wrote, though I think it's quite amusing that you try to capstone it by attacking vindicator too with some bizarre rant and some weird ideology that clearly isn't true either.

And as far as revenant skills go and believing they won't change that's just something that isn't going to be true no matter how much you say it. Things are changing, and given how little the revenant changed in these big balance updates I doubt says to the balance of the class and more to the fact they might have something bigger in mind if not a rework down the line, they just don't have a clear idea how to tackle it yet.

Don't you put words in, it's the truth, you can't tell apart of it because you don't care, Forced Engagement change history EASILY proves the fact.

Anet doesn't know what to do with Revenant because the original designer is not longer apart of their team.

Hardly anything needs to change and adding more button presses is definitely not the way to go with it because things will get gutted if that happens and they won't get fixed for a long time.

They can't even fix the simpliest of issues with this profession and it's only been worst.

Vindicator with 2 evades is without a doubt just Rev 2.0, you don't lose out on anything simply because Alliances is that good, it's not hard to figure out.

[draxynnic.3719]

20 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

They can change the costs but IO is always going to be meta in the end. There's just no helping Shiro's design, I would rather see more effects from the skills for some real change.

It would, but this kinda means that every other skill you use while in Shiro in PvE is measured against the fact that you want to be in IO the whole time. Which means that, unless you're using Charged Mists, you can only afford to spend roughly 40 energy on other skills or you'll be forced to drop IO before swapping back to another legend.

In this context, Phase Traversal and Riposting Shadows are 75% of your budget. Jade Winds is over budget. Of course they're not going to be used!

Reducing the costs, though, would provide more room to use those other skills alongside IO. PT and RS could become cost-effective enough that you'd use them situationally. At 40 energy, Jade Winds would cross a threshold where you could use it once and still maintain IO until you swap back as long as you don't spend energy on anything else. It would still be situational - the optimal DPS is going to come from using the cheaper weapon skills instead - but crossing that threshold could well push it from being an 'only if you have Charged Mists' skill to one that might actually get used if the situation was right for it.

EDIT: Forgot that IO has an activation cost. But that just makes the point stronger - the proportion of the remaining budget that a single PT or RS would represent is prohibitive, and JW is over budget. Price reductions would make them less of a burden on the budget and therefore more attractive.

Edited August 8, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

EDIT: Forgot that IO has an activation cost. But that just makes the point stronger - the proportion of the remaining budget that a single PT or RS would represent is prohibitive, and JW is over budget. Price reductions would make them less of a burden on the budget and therefore more attractive.

Could just be me with -8 in PvP for IO but 10% always was negligible in my ability to do anything, it's always better put in weapon skills then swapping.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Could just be me with -8 in PvP for IO but 10% always was negligible in my ability to do anything, it's always better put in weapon skills then swapping.

The OP of the entire thread was talking specifically about PvE, so pvp/WvW concerns aren’t really relevant for this convo. Cost reductions in PvE are warranted for Shiro and would not cause any issues to the spec in any other capacity 

[Shao.7236]

7 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The OP of the entire thread was talking specifically about PvE, so pvp/WvW concerns aren’t really relevant for this convo. Cost reductions in PvE are warranted for Shiro and would not cause any issues to the spec in any other capacity 

That I know of but even at -6 in PvE. It seems rather pointless to stretch it because it's not achieving much.

That originally is where the idea of persistent upkeep skills outside legends come from in my mind. Having IO remain for a set amount of time outside of Shiro if pressed would be a great way to push forward the Revenant mechanics into play, especially in Ventari's flow because you don't have to stress at the useless wait for skills like Energy Expulsion to finish, imagine sending it out while legend swapping, you take away stalling and motivate players to keep going.

[Mike.7983]

Wasn't entire purpose of putting energy cost on skills to balance the lower cooldown times?  Well some revenant skills are absolute garbage to use due to costing 50 energy for example.  Really do need skill cost re-adjusted its just forcing a lot of auto attacks if you hit any utility.  Jade winds or most elite skills in general are not worth using.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

That I know of but even at -6 in PvE. It seems rather pointless to stretch it because it's not achieving much.

That originally is where the idea of persistent upkeep skills outside legends come from in my mind. Having IO remain for a set amount of time outside of Shiro if pressed would be a great way to push forward the Revenant mechanics into play, especially in Ventari's flow because you don't have to stress at the useless wait for skills like Energy Expulsion to finish, imagine sending it out while legend swapping, you take away stalling and motivate players to keep going.

Thing is, you reduce the price and it becomes more practical to do other things, including weapon skills.

Consider PT for instance. It appears to be a skill that would be convenient to use to chase down a boss that just moved. But it's 30 energy out of a 35 energy budget. You can squeeze in one Chilling Isolation, maybe, and then you're restricted to autoattacking. At 20, though - that will allow you to use the second Chilling Isolation, and with PT also doing some damage as well as shortening the dead time before you can get to the target and providing some quickness (very useful solo, might help cover gaps in coverage if your quickness supplier isn't perfect), it might well be worth the other skills you can't use due to the energy cost.

Of course, in practice it's competing with the teleports on OH sword or axe, but the general principle holds.

You're arguing as if cost doesn't matter (in addition to bringing competitive considerations into a PvE thread), when in reality the opportunity cost of a skill is a driving factor of whether they get used or not. I'm pretty confident that, to take an extreme case, if all of the Shiro skills cost five energy but were otherwise the same as they are now, there would be metas built around them - because they would be ridiculously overloaded even by PvE standards at those prices. At 30 and 50, though, they're far too expensive, since the opportunity cost is basically that you're left autoattacking with IO until you can swap back (and if it's Jade Winds you can't even do that). If there's a price at which they're OP and a price at which they're not worth using and the whole legend is basically an IO bot, then somewhere in between there should be a sweet spot where they're actually reasonably balanced.

[Angesombre.4630]

Wouldn't it be nice if, for example, with shiro we could target an ally and be able to teleport to it, like with the druid's change, for example, which lets you target a person to heal them? well, that would just be to move around more easily, as you'd have to automatically target an enemy to be able to use it.

[Shao.7236]

@draxynnic.3719 I stand by the fact that those skills are better off with improved effects rather than cost less. They flow well on Core and reducing costs leaves an overabundance of energy that would just end up in boring AA that has no benefit added, elites having issues with it is the trade off for not playing with Ancient Echo and taking away from that strong point core has is just another way to ruin it further when Core is not even allowed to have persistent skill effects unlike every elites in the profession.

If they would work on that for Core skills then we could talk about energy costs.

Shared effects and added quickness is less selfish and benefits the overall profession in and out rather than just specific builds which have tight energy budgets.

With weapon access being unrestricted soon, having something that covers more than just specific needs is what Revenant needs.

 

 

 

[otto.5684]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:03 PM, Shao.7236 said:

They can change the costs but IO is always going to be meta in the end. There's just no helping Shiro's design, I would rather see more effects from the skills for some real change.

In PvE, this exactly the issue for Shiro, Mallyx and Jails. You do not use the other utilities cuz they wipe out your energy. If these skills cost reasonable amount of energy, that would create far more opportunities to use them, without having to worry about running out of energy for the upkeep utility. Example, Jade Wind would go from very situational to a good skill to use in any situation CC is beneficial. 

[Shao.7236]

14 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

In PvE, this exactly the issue for Shiro, Mallyx and Jails. You do not use the other utilities cuz they wipe out your energy. If these skills cost reasonable amount of energy, that would create far more opportunities to use them, without having to worry about running out of energy for the upkeep utility. Example, Jade Wind would go from very situational to a good skill to use in any situation CC is beneficial. 

Is it really an energy problem or the fact that there is no skill that persist after using them?

Most elites have legend skills that you can use and forget while they are still doing damage as you are doing something else.

On Core you hardly have anything like it, Enchanted Daggers is the closest you get, Inspiring Reinforcement is only 1 hit and should honestly do more based on hitbox size, Mallyx Unyielding Anguish is not longer a thing. You always have to rely on upkeep based skills to get anything similar as a result to try and match elites efficacy.

Once you're ready to accept that then you can see why it's not a bad thing to let those upkeep skills persist on legend swap to combine them in between legends, not only it's just core legends that truly benefits from that, but it would also bridge so many holes that the profession really needs to be fixed.

The game by default requires -6 to start an upkeep skill, so what's so bad about having said upkeep skills not remain for the duration equivalent that the amount that was spent after it's stopped? Doing that means combining things like VH and IO, meaning using them together to a certain degree and in turn buff damage for Core and other elites because that 6 seconds won't be in invested in constantly losing energy meaning a better energy budget for all the profession.

Anyways, since we're mentioning Jade Winds again. If that skill had Call of the Assassin built in, 2 seconds of Quickness by default and gained 1 second per target hit, that would mean with Charged Mists you could get a potent 7 seconds for your team while everything around is stunned with vulnerability and you have 25% energy to spare on IO WITH Quickness which by the time the 7 seconds is out you can just switch legends again and that's without boon duration, getting possibly 14 seconds of Quickness with Boon Duration for 50% energy? How is anyone not interested in that compared less energy that means having more buttons to press?

Really is anyone not interested in Upkeep persisting at all?? That would give a good breath of fresh air to "everything" on the profession while fixing this energy budget EVERYONE is complaining about.

I can imagine Soulcleave Summit would see itself used way more in all game modes in a defensive playstyle without Renegades having to sit in the back with fear of being stunned.

St Viktor Urn can be kept the way it is right now since in the context of that skill you break the Urn or the skill effects can persist but not the healing debuff since the players are not investing energy in the skill anymore. Making Urn a bit of a selfish RotGD but no less useful to survive with since it would keep your HP doubled on top of healing and boons. To me that gives even less reasons to keep the double evade on Vindicator for how powerful it can be already.

Edit: Don't read, don't say anything. Keep the confuse reactions going. That's very mature and productive.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Shao.7236

[draxynnic.3719]

21 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

@draxynnic.3719 I stand by the fact that those skills are better off with improved effects rather than cost less. They flow well on Core and reducing costs leaves an overabundance of energy that would just end up in boring AA that has no benefit added, elites having issues with it is the trade off for not playing with Ancient Echo and taking away from that strong point core has is just another way to ruin it further when Core is not even allowed to have persistent skill effects unlike every elites in the profession.

If they would work on that for Core skills then we could talk about energy costs.

Shared effects and added quickness is less selfish and benefits the overall profession in and out rather than just specific builds which have tight energy budgets.

With weapon access being unrestricted soon, having something that covers more than just specific needs is what Revenant needs.

 

 

 

I disagree. Given the energy budgets involved, you'd need to massively supercharge the skills to be worth using at their current energy costs, and that would probably result in whatever buff gets applied to achieve that having to be PvE-only (do you really think the proposal you made for Jade Wind in your followup post would fly in competitive?). While ArenaNet have shown a willingness to split functionality between modes, I think reducing the costs are still a far more elegant means of splitting than a functionality rework. 

The skills already do a lot, but they're cost-prohibitive to use. Overloading them even more isn't going to make them see use until and unless one is overloaded to the point of displacing IO altogether and then we'll just have changed one-trick-Shiro to a different trick. Reducing the costs have a better chance of creating an environment where you'd use them situationally but where they wouldn't just be displacing another skill in a DPS rotation.

EDIT: Further on the matter of your Jade Winds proposal...isn't Call of the Assassin self-quickness only? If so, then you now have the problem Mallyx used to have of two skills competing for the same purpose, except that instead of the purpose being converting energy into Torment, it's converting energy into Quickness. And making Call of the Assassin or Jade Winds into group quickness won't fly even in PvE, because it would create the possibility of a renegade quickalacdps build.

Edited August 12, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Kozumi.5816]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Given the energy budgets involved, you'd need to massively supercharge the skills to be worth using at their current energy costs

Want a good laugh? Compare these two.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Chilled_to_the_Bone!"

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Winds

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

50 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Want a good laugh? Compare these two.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Chilled_to_the_Bone!"

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Winds

Yea, this is why I wonder, with so little that revs have actually been touched the past few balance updates, if CMC is planning something bigger. The energy to cooldown argument just doesn't hold much water anymore with other powers out there that do more and far better.

[Shao.7236]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

EDIT: Further on the matter of your Jade Winds proposal...isn't Call of the Assassin self-quickness only?

Something similar to it, not to be literally the same because it was said previously many times that it would be a team oriented buff. It has nothing to do with the other elites, just Jade Wind itself in the 600 radius.

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Jade Winds into group quickness won't fly even in PvE, because it would create the possibility of a renegade quickalacdps build.

This is why it has a target requirement to be effective, if you only hit 1 target, you'll get 6 seconds on max boon duration. If it can't be done for the team buff, nothing stops it from being a good change for self benefit.

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think reducing the costs are still a far more elegant means of splitting than a functionality rework. 

In either cases, there will be a split. Allowing more stuns in PvP would be less desirable compared some adjustable Quickness on a skill that is already considered balanced. The skill is visually big and loud, it's not like people won't be able to tell what's going on.

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The skills already do a lot, but they're cost-prohibitive to use. Overloading them even more isn't going to make them see use until and unless one is overloaded to the point of displacing IO altogether and then we'll just have changed one-trick-Shiro to a different trick. Reducing the costs have a better chance of creating an environment where you'd use them situationally but where they wouldn't just be displacing another skill in a DPS rotation.

Does it really? Someone just set out a comparison to Chilled to the Bones, I don't think adding some conditional on target hit Quickness is going to overload it. Considering people are asking for several changes which would do more than just new situations and it's doubtful they'd be allowed. Not having to use PT to gain Quickness anymore is one thing but it's also taking away from being forcefully in the face of the target is something that would be really nice to have on top of what Jade Wind already does. Finally Quickness is in the theme of Shiro regardless and it's the most expensive skill, why shouldn't it grant Quickness to begin with?

Edit: Also thank you for actually giving a response, that doesn't happen often.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Shao.7236

[otto.5684]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:34 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Is it really an energy problem or the fact that there is no skill that persist after using them?

Most elites have legend skills that you can use and forget while they are still doing damage as you are doing something else.

On Core you hardly have anything like it, Enchanted Daggers is the closest you get, Inspiring Reinforcement is only 1 hit and should honestly do more based on hitbox size, Mallyx Unyielding Anguish is not longer a thing. You always have to rely on upkeep based skills to get anything similar as a result to try and match elites efficacy.

Once you're ready to accept that then you can see why it's not a bad thing to let those upkeep skills persist on legend swap to combine them in between legends, not only it's just core legends that truly benefits from that, but it would also bridge so many holes that the profession really needs to be fixed.

The game by default requires -6 to start an upkeep skill, so what's so bad about having said upkeep skills not remain for the duration equivalent that the amount that was spent after it's stopped? Doing that means combining things like VH and IO, meaning using them together to a certain degree and in turn buff damage for Core and other elites because that 6 seconds won't be in invested in constantly losing energy meaning a better energy budget for all the profession.

Anyways, since we're mentioning Jade Winds again. If that skill had Call of the Assassin built in, 2 seconds of Quickness by default and gained 1 second per target hit, that would mean with Charged Mists you could get a potent 7 seconds for your team while everything around is stunned with vulnerability and you have 25% energy to spare on IO WITH Quickness which by the time the 7 seconds is out you can just switch legends again and that's without boon duration, getting possibly 14 seconds of Quickness with Boon Duration for 50% energy? How is anyone not interested in that compared less energy that means having more buttons to press?

Really is anyone not interested in Upkeep persisting at all?? That would give a good breath of fresh air to "everything" on the profession while fixing this energy budget EVERYONE is complaining about.

I can imagine Soulcleave Summit would see itself used way more in all game modes in a defensive playstyle without Renegades having to sit in the back with fear of being stunned.

St Viktor Urn can be kept the way it is right now since in the context of that skill you break the Urn or the skill effects can persist but not the healing debuff since the players are not investing energy in the skill anymore. Making Urn a bit of a selfish RotGD but no less useful to survive with since it would keep your HP doubled on top of healing and boons. To me that gives even less reasons to keep the double evade on Vindicator for how powerful it can be already.

Edit: Don't read, don't say anything. Keep the confuse reactions going. That's very mature and productive.

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. I do not want upkeep utilities energy cost to change, but none upkeep utilities. Using a none Shiro example, Mallyx. Call to Anguish, reduce cost from 30 to 10. Pain absorption from 30 to 10+ a few secs CD (similar to Vindicator). The point is you can use none upkeep utilities without being worried about burning your entire energy for using 1 skill. I do not see this being out performing, by any stretch.

Note that I am talking about PvE.

[otto.5684]

On 8/12/2023 at 6:24 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Yea, this is why I wonder, with so little that revs have actually been touched the past few balance updates, if CMC is planning something bigger. The energy to cooldown argument just doesn't hold much water anymore with other powers out there that do more and far better.

The reason rev didn’t see much changes, is cuz it did not really need any big changes in pve. And they keep kittening with Herald support. It was okayish, but they ruined it. Anyway, ya, it would be very helpful if none upkeep utilities costs is reduced for most utilities. Somewhat inline with Vindicator.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

It would be interesting to see how Shiro would play if some of the utility skills were lowered in energy cost in PvE only. The legend itself definitely seems like it was designed moreso with PvP/WvW in mind, with the rework of IO being a compromise for PvE. One of the reasons I like to run core in open world PvE is because I can play builds that have more incoming energy, meaning I can actually put those Shiro skills to use more often. It feels like I'm playing that evasive, mobile assassin rather than an IO bot. But obviously that comes at a massive sacrifice to damage, so I know it's not really ideal in anything more than the fun factor.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, otto.5684 said:

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. I do not want upkeep utilities energy cost to change, but none upkeep utilities. Using a none Shiro example, Mallyx. Call to Anguish, reduce cost from 30 to 10. Pain absorption from 30 to 10+ a few secs CD (similar to Vindicator). The point is you can use none upkeep utilities without being worried about burning your entire energy for using 1 skill. I do not see this being out performing, by any stretch.

Note that I am talking about PvE.

This wouldn't be an issue if upkeep was more flexible rather than stiff as it is.

So far it doesn't seem like anyone really acknowledges the suggestions I constantly put forth for upkeep.

If you add cooldowns for less cost, it means cutting away the possibility of double Jade Wind. Whether it counts for PvE or PvP, it's something that wouldn't be possible anymore.

It's that specific anomaly with Shiro, if you allow PT every 5 seconds at low cost in PvE you have some cool but somewhat redundant mobility while in PvP that is extra extra broken hence why it has 12 seconds with the same cost because the cost keeps skills in check for not allowing senseless risk free acts but rewards players who plays patiently and stack their energy for proper plays.

@Za Shaloc.3908 Put it out well as a fun factor that kills damage potential, however we want it Shiro is just at the end always going to be an IO bot because in the damage terms PvE doesn't reward players for patience nor energy stacking. You have to constantly pump and that limits the options of an otherwise very potent free use of skills back 2 back when done right for the profession but doing it right ruins it's otherwise expected damage.

If anyone in here wants Shiro or most core legends to become "fun" with the current cost while still balanced, upkeep needs to become a persistent effect and based on cost remain for that duration so that the benefits are still in place but energy can flow back while at it.

Example: Use IO for -6% energy, energy depletes for now -1% every second until retracted.

This is what we have currently, however my suggestions goes as follow with it; since it costs -6% energy, the upkeep skill should remain for that amount spent on activation if deactivated in that time period.

Meaning, you turn on IO then deactivate IO, lose -6% energy but IO stays for 6 seconds because that's how long it would last for keeping it up at the amount of energy spent.

This results in keeping the buff while having energy coming back which technically buffs costs because energy won't deplete anymore while still using IO technically.

In regards to this, a cooldown should be added to the upkeep skill since spamming deactivation would mean an indefinite amount of IO without consequence. 10 seconds would be ideal as it'd act for 4 seconds technically because of it's effectiveness only turning off after 6 seconds.

Players will be rewarded with no cooldown if they held on the upkeep for longer than the effect would remain if they turned it off, adding a layer of complexity that doesn't hinder the existing gameplay while generally buffing available options, keeping energy in check as well as giving people more options to play with at the cost of losing IO for a few seconds.

[otto.5684]

8 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

This wouldn't be an issue if upkeep was more flexible rather than stiff as it is.

So far it doesn't seem like anyone really acknowledges the suggestions I constantly put forth for upkeep.

If you add cooldowns for less cost, it means cutting away the possibility of double Jade Wind. Whether it counts for PvE or PvP, it's something that wouldn't be possible anymore.

It's that specific anomaly with Shiro, if you allow PT every 5 seconds at low cost in PvE you have some cool but somewhat redundant mobility while in PvP that is extra extra broken hence why it has 12 seconds with the same cost because the cost keeps skills in check for not allowing senseless risk free acts but rewards players who plays patiently and stack their energy for proper plays.

@Za Shaloc.3908 Put it out well as a fun factor that kills damage potential, however we want it Shiro is just at the end always going to be an IO bot because in the damage terms PvE doesn't reward players for patience nor energy stacking. You have to constantly pump and that limits the options of an otherwise very potent free use of skills back 2 back when done right for the profession but doing it right ruins it's otherwise expected damage.

If anyone in here wants Shiro or most core legends to become "fun" with the current cost while still balanced, upkeep needs to become a persistent effect and based on cost remain for that duration so that the benefits are still in place but energy can flow back while at it.

Example: Use IO for -6% energy, energy depletes for now -1% every second until retracted.

This is what we have currently, however my suggestions goes as follow with it; since it costs -6% energy, the upkeep skill should remain for that amount spent on activation if deactivated in that time period.

Meaning, you turn on IO then deactivate IO, lose -6% energy but IO stays for 6 seconds because that's how long it would last for keeping it up at the amount of energy spent.

This results in keeping the buff while having energy coming back which technically buffs costs because energy won't deplete anymore while still using IO technically.

In regards to this, a cooldown should be added to the upkeep skill since spamming deactivation would mean an indefinite amount of IO without consequence. 10 seconds would be ideal as it'd act for 4 seconds technically because of it's effectiveness only turning off after 6 seconds.

Players will be rewarded with no cooldown if they held on the upkeep for longer than the effect would remain if they turned it off, adding a layer of complexity that doesn't hinder the existing gameplay while generally buffing available options, keeping energy in check as well as giving people more options to play with at the cost of losing IO for a few seconds.

That is another possibility for upkeep. The issue that we may run to is that there are traits tied to upkeep above 5. Of course, they can rework these traits. I still think it is easier if we just reduce cost as it is easier to rework and can be separated for pve and pvp.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

11 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

The reason rev didn’t see much changes, is cuz it did not really need any big changes in pve. And they keep kittening with Herald support. It was okayish, but they ruined it. Anyway, ya, it would be very helpful if none upkeep utilities costs is reduced for most utilities. Somewhat inline with Vindicator.

I am going to have to largely disagree with this viewpoint because anyone doing any actual numbers will realize that the revenant is not in a good spot. I mean people who don't like change will always disagree but if you've played MMOs long enough change is inevitable, and when everything else shifts around majorly compared to an entire profession, then that is usually a sign of something bigger is probably going to happen. I mean when entire specs can just be ignored now it's not a good spot.

Let's be real, the changes to herald is because it's falling behind not because it was in a good place. I mean I don't mind it's current place being the top tier DPS support build out there, but renegade is falling behind, and vindicator while good for DPS is just blatantly ignored for support because all it does is heal and barrier. And let's not even get into the debate on how core revs are considered trolling if someone dares to bring just a pure rev spec.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/13/2023 at 11:09 AM, Shao.7236 said:

This is why it has a target requirement to be effective, if you only hit 1 target, you'll get 6 seconds on max boon duration. If it can't be done for the team buff, nothing stops it from being a good change for self benefit.

There are fights where there are adds in play, you can probably get away with it on those fights. Or have two of them and get the quickness that way. Or... let's just say there are multiple possible ways in which getting quickness from Shiro and alacrity from Renegade could potentially be spooky unless the quickness was balanced so conservatively that it's not going to be competitive anyway.

On 8/13/2023 at 11:09 AM, Shao.7236 said:

In either cases, there will be a split. Allowing more stuns in PvP would be less desirable compared some adjustable Quickness on a skill that is already considered balanced. The skill is visually big and loud, it's not like people won't be able to tell what's going on.

Yeah, there'll be a split either way, but surely you can see that a different energy cost is a much easier split to make, both for the devs and for the players to understand, than having a completely different functionality?

I think there's also an element to which the lore needs to be at least considered here. You could maybe justify self-quickness if you treat Jade Winds as also having an element of Meditation of the Reaper to it, but buffing allies? The Jade Wind didn't buff anyone. It was lethal.

On 8/13/2023 at 11:09 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Does it really? Someone just set out a comparison to Chilled to the Bones, I don't think adding some conditional on target hit Quickness is going to overload it. Considering people are asking for several changes which would do more than just new situations and it's doubtful they'd be allowed. Not having to use PT to gain Quickness anymore is one thing but it's also taking away from being forcefully in the face of the target is something that would be really nice to have on top of what Jade Wind already does. Finally Quickness is in the theme of Shiro regardless and it's the most expensive skill, why shouldn't it grant Quickness to begin with?

Chilled to the Bone is pretty overloaded... but the buffs are self-only, and it has a 30s recharge. As a self-buff, too, I also don't see it being that much different between getting Quickness from Jade Winds and getting it from PT. Both require you to be pretty much in the thick of things as it is. Taking the Quickness off PT would probably also put it in the position of needing something else to replace it... or perhaps a cost reduction?

On 8/13/2023 at 11:09 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Edit: Also thank you for actually giving a response, that doesn't happen often.

I know you're one of the top revenant theorycrafters in the community, so you deserve that respect. And, more generally, when disagreeing with something it is better to give reasons why, unless something is so crazy that a confused or laughing emoji is actually legitimate (which is not the case here). 

In this case, though, I think your core argument is misplaced. Your core argument seems to be that IO is still going to be dominant despite cost reductions of other skills, and therefore cost reductions won't change anything. My position is that IO is going to continue to be dominant until and unless something else provides a better means of converting energy to damage, at which point that skill will replace it and IO will become the unused skill. The proposal to reduce costs is not to fight the dominance of IO, but to work within it - make it so that it's more practical to use those skills alongside IO.

There may be other changes that would be needed as well, but I think the current costs present a stark binary - either they're replacing IO entirely or you'll just use IO and weapon skills (the current situation). Reduced costs would be the first step in making them more practical. And there's precedent. Phase Traversal used to be 20 energy, but was increased for competitive before skill splits were introduced. RotGD used to be 50 energy, same as Jade Winds, but it was reduced to 40, so the other big-ticket skill could potentially have a similar reduction in PvE. Maybe there'd be more needed, but I do think it's reasonable for IO to remain the main damage skill on that side of the bar, the others just need to be more practical to use situationally without wiping most of your energy. 

[otto.5684]

12 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I am going to have to largely disagree with this viewpoint because anyone doing any actual numbers will realize that the revenant is not in a good spot. I mean people who don't like change will always disagree but if you've played MMOs long enough change is inevitable, and when everything else shifts around majorly compared to an entire profession, then that is usually a sign of something bigger is probably going to happen. I mean when entire specs can just be ignored now it's not a good spot.

Let's be real, the changes to herald is because it's falling behind not because it was in a good place. I mean I don't mind it's current place being the top tier DPS support build out there, but renegade is falling behind, and vindicator while good for DPS is just blatantly ignored for support because all it does is heal and barrier. And let's not even get into the debate on how core revs are considered trolling if someone dares to bring just a pure rev spec.

As far as I am aware, no core build puts enough dps for a raid spot. This is not a rev exclusive issue. Condi renegade puts about 40k. Could it do 1-2k more damage, sure. 
 

Having said that, yes, there many issues that need to be resolved. Vindicator power inconsistency against small box enemies. Vindicator F skill that is currently useless. And sure, there are always going to be more updates in the future. I think we won’t see changes till ~Nov.