25 might is a joke

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Remember when they reworked Critital Damage into Ferocity?
The game is due for a more extreme stat change: convert Precision into a Boon Power stat.

• Right now there are 3 stats mostly used for power, 2 for conditions, and 1 for boons.
  • Precision use for condition is rather minor and traits that cause conditions on critial usually have cooldowns or additional chances of their own. So they pretty much could be changed to just ignore precision.
  • Concentration alone isn't enough to define a stritly boon support role.
• And critical chance should not depend so much on a percentage chance stat in a game with a combat style that is so action-oriented.

Converting precision to another stat would require quite the undertaking, but once done, a "Boon Support" build would bring Concentration and Boon Power, and their boons would be stronger and take precedence rather than just last longer.  

This Boon Power stat would increase the effects and sometimes stacks of boons provided by the character. So boons would have to be reworked to be slightly weaker without any investment in the stat, but way stronger when going all out on this stat. 

So the might from a Berserker's warrior would not be completly useless, but it would not be as strong as the might provided by a dedicated boon support build.

Boon power would also help with other balance issues. For example: some build gives too much Stability while still being able to dish too much damage in WvW? Tie the stabiltiy skills to Boon power, now they give more stacks with more boon power. And then a WvW squad can't have both tons of damage and tons of stability. 

----

Or at least introduce a new Boon Power as a new stat and a few new stat combinations that use it in portions of the content that did not introduce any or introduced few. 

But I still think precision should be reeplaced or reworked into something more active.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

20 minutes ago, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

Remember when they reworked Critital Damage into Ferocity?
The game is due for a more extreme stat change: convert Precision into a Boon Power stat.

• Right now there are 3 stats mostly used for power, 2 for conditions, and 1 for boons.
  • Precision use for condition is rather minor and traits that cause conditions on critial usually have cooldowns or additional chances of their own. So they pretty much could be changed to just ignore precision.
  • Concentration alone isn't enough to define a stritly boon support role.
• And critical chance should not depend so much on a percentage chance stat in a game with a combat style that is so action-oriented.

Converting precision to another stat would require quite the undertaking, but once done, a "Boon Support" build would bring Concentration and Boon Power, and their boons would be stronger and take precedence rather than just last longer.  

This Boon Power stat would increase the effects and sometimes stacks of boons provided by the character. So boons would have to be reworked to be slightly weaker without any investment in the stat, but way stronger when going all out on this stat. 

So the might from a Berserker's warrior would not be completly useless, but it would not be as strong as the might provided by a dedicated boon support build.

Boon power would also help with other balance issues. For example: some build gives too much Stability while still being able to dish too much damage in WvW? Tie the stabiltiy skills to Boon power, now they give more stacks with more boon power. And then a WvW squad can't have both tons of damage and tons of stability. 

----

Or at least introduce a new Boon Power as a new stat and a few new stat combinations that use it in portions of the content that did not introduce any or introduced few. 

But I still think precision should be reeplaced or reworked into something more active.

Or, maybe remove ferocity and set critical strike damage at 200% baseline with increases coming from traits alone. Stats with ferocity now could get another thematic stat to replace it for the set.

[Saiyan.1704]

8 hours ago, magickthief.6492 said:

pretty sure might was nerfed due to guards

Might was nerfed because of Engi and Ele's ability of stacking it with near 100% duration. This was back in 2015.

Guard had nothing to do with it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

18 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Or, maybe remove ferocity and set critical strike damage at 200% baseline with increases coming from traits alone. Stats with ferocity now could get another thematic stat to replace it for the set.

this is pretty much it i think, having ferocity as a stat was a mistake. it not only makes critical hits less reliable even at 100% crit chance since the damage will fluctuate anyway as ferocity rises and falls, but it also makes power builds overly expensive compared to all other builds.

 

we should've gone with fixed critical damage (placing the entire burden on precision), and two stats to every build type, and only requiring more than two stats when mixing multiple build types, thus reducing the overall efficiency of "all in one" builds. this would've prevented many past situations in pvp, like celestial being considered so overpowered that it had to be removed even before it had concentration and expertise.

 

that said, other games allow things like critical boons, critical conditions and critical healing, which this game doesn't have.

Edited August 5, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Flowki.7194]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:39 PM, Downstate.4697 said:

Might is an issue if unaddressed. A lot of overpowered builds have popped up over the years because they had consistent access to 15+ stacks at all times.

I'd rather a game had access to easy might, while 20k damage output required 10 dps buttons, than a game with no might, and 20k dmg being done with 5 buttons. I would also apply the same ethos to sustain, there are a number of specs that have access to 20k+ worth of effective sustain while doing next to nothing to achieve it, while also suffering minimal downsides. For example, warrior can x2 physical immunity, while still being able to attack during that immunity. All target drops essentially give a 10k+ effective mitigation, act as a reset, and a chance to land the first jump crit, which do not have to be timed near as well as a dodges or are as stun dependent.

 

The core issue with the current game is the lack of complexity in applying/mitigating damage, might is just a relative issue.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Just make self-generated might capped at 10 stacks and the rest 15 can only be obtained from outside sources (other players) thus making it 25 stacks.

[Downstate.4697]

Might has been too strong since HoT. It causes problems in all game modes. Anet is blind 

[Leonidrex.5649]

25 might is not a problem if there is short duration and a cost to it.
nobody is getting mad that warrior uses frenzy and gets 10 stacks for 6s. 
people get mad when classes like ele or engi get 20+ stacks for existing without expanding any real cooldowns to do it

[Widebody.5071]

Must of went up against a Bladesworn and bit off more then he can chew so now he's calling for a nerf, So typical.

[Dreams.3128]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:09 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think now players who cried for removal of sets like celestial and the boon duration and condition duration stats are starting to understand that everything we had in pvp was needed and the secret was to scale down the base values not make them unextendable.
 

builds should have to make sacrifices to achieve results.

Notice how those players no longer play the game anymore lol. Find it hilarious how people push their agenda and then just leave after they do their supposed due diligence. 

[JosephKatz.9375]

25 might is a problem on Holosmith and Scrapper (why is 1-shot Holo still a thing, in addition to Engis other broken attributes) and Catalyst (even post nerf?) but I agree with capping it at 10 stacks. Might make for better balance since not all classes can attain that 25 stack.
 

Also, Bladesworn damage is not a problem, it’s the specs sustain that causes people to complain. Para has l2p issues. 🤡

Edited August 9, 2023 by JosephKatz.9375

[Widebody.5071]

7 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Notice how those players no longer play the game anymore lol. Find it hilarious how people push their agenda and then just leave after they do their supposed due diligence. 

Just had a flashback to 2015 with this one. Not saying it was the poster above but these words were used back then to justify nerfing warrior to the ground because to get rid of players who [have don't know how to play and is being carried by their characters skills and traits]. A rather brash, obnoxious poster who loved to bragg about his alternate sexual exploits while coming to the comments section and being a total kitten to others.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[shion.2084]

9 hours ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

25 might is a problem on Holosmith and Scrapper (why is 1-shot Holo still a thing, in addition to Engis other broken attributes) and Catalyst (even post nerf?) but I agree with capping it at 10 stacks. Might make for better balance since not all classes can attain that 25 stack.
 

Also, Bladesworn damage is not a problem, it’s the specs sustain that causes people to complain. Para has l2p issues. 🤡

Engi’s won’t be doing fights at 25 might.   They do need it to get like a 7k-8k grenade barrage even other classes can do that without 25 might with ease.  It’s factored into their damage that they need the boons.  I’d be happy to just have the damage like other classes without needing might.

now what engi is doing fights sustaining 25 might?  You have blast gyro, but no other blasts.  You can use the GM trait that triggers on scrapper field leaps or blasts… but that hot nerfed so you don’t get nearly the might you use to, and you have lesss triggers.  You can maybe do it for a short bit if you take battle signet.  By 25 might engis doing a fight for any period of time you won’t see with the meta build.  In the old days before the last 4 nerfs sure.

[Swagg.9236]

Here's a take:

I honestly don't have a problem with 25 might so long as 50% or more or of it isn't PASSIVELY GENERATED or just allowed to appear out of nowhere at the press of a single button.  The biggest issue with huge might stacks is often that so much of it appears through traits.  There are no counterplays to some dude menu'ing before a match starts; you just have to deal with the fact that a guy's passives are going to magically dump massive amounts of extra damage.  No, "just swap to X class" is not a fair retort for two main reasons:  the corrupts/strips can get nerfed (which did happen lmao), and it absolutely shouldn't be on an opponent to choose a cookie-cutter hard-counter class just because some dude decided to play something that gets boons for free while just attacking or moving around.

Remove boons from attack skills.  Remove boons from traits (except maybe in the case of granting additional boons from combo field interactions).  Have some defensive cooldowns/utilities intentionally remove boons from the user to emphasize the nature of defensive actions.  Reallocate boons into combo fields and utilities so that there is some actual time investment and opportunity cost associated with a guy suddenly popping off with an extra 750 power stats.  Like, you're not going to be able to take 25 might and then also zip across the map and negate a butt-load of incoming damage while attacking.  That's not how video games work lol.  One or the other.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Swagg.9236

[Enduronex.4865]

45 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Here's a take:

I honestly don't have a problem with 25 might so long as 50% or more or of it isn't PASSIVELY GENERATED or just allowed to appear out of nowhere at the press of a single button.  The biggest issue with huge might stacks is often that so much of it appears through traits.  There are no counterplays to some dude menu'ing before a match starts; you just have to deal with the fact that a guy's passives are going to magically dump massive amounts of extra damage.  No, "just swap to X class" is not a fair retort for two main reasons:  the corrupts/strips can get nerfed (which did happen lmao), and it absolutely shouldn't be on an opponent to choose a cookie-cutter hard-counter class just because some dude decided to play something that gets boons for free while just attacking or moving around.

Remove boons from attack skills.  Remove boons from traits (except maybe in the case of granting additional boons from combo field interactions).  Have some defensive cooldowns/utilities intentionally remove boons from the user to emphasize the nature of defensive actions.  Reallocate boons into combo fields and utilities so that there is some actual time investment and opportunity cost associated with a guy suddenly popping off with an extra 750 power stats.  Like, you're not going to be able to take 25 might and then also zip across the map and negate a butt-load of incoming damage while attacking.  That's not how video games work lol.  One or the other.

Yeah I agree - dmg buffs really shouldn't come through trait lines.  That's how you end up with 14K True shots on something that appears to have a base (with Berserker Amulet) of 1400.  That's a crazy amount of hidden buffs that changes how people dodge and play the game that is not communicated until you are dead.  And even then, there are a lot of situations when you want to use counter measures so you do not die sooner to other skills in multi-person fights.  That's what the community at large doesn't understand - hidden damage buffs that aren't communicated by any means to outside players.

[Swagg.9236]

30 minutes ago, chromodynamix.2495 said:

Yeah I agree - dmg buffs really shouldn't come through trait lines.  That's how you end up with 14K True shots on something that appears to have a base (with Berserker Amulet) of 1400.  That's a crazy amount of hidden buffs that changes how people dodge and play the game that is not communicated until you are dead.  And even then, there are a lot of situations when you want to use counter measures so you do not die sooner to other skills in multi-person fights.  That's what the community at large doesn't understand - hidden damage buffs that aren't communicated by any means to outside players.

It's not even necessarily a "community doesn't understand this" issue, it's that NOBODY understands it at first glance, so new players will almost always confront something that seems (it is) incredibly unfair.  Traits really did a lot to ruin this game's PvP from a spectator/esport perspective--particularly because they are really the foundational mechanic upon which the elite specialization system is built.  Nobody new to GW2 is going to watch its PvP and understand ANYTHING about what's going on.  That's not a glowing comment to GW2's depth or complexity; it's a call-out to GW2's awful design when it comes to combat legibility and lack of true roles.  Beyond that, if anyone ever feels like they need to complain about any e-spec being waaaay too overtuned, it's almost always better framed as a critique on the trait system itself rather than "Ah-bloo-bloo-bloo, cata/soulbeast/gunblade/etc."  Traits enable that trash in the first place.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Swagg.9236

[Enduronex.4865]

11 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

It's not even necessarily a "community doesn't understand this" issue, it's that NOBODY understands it at first glance, so new players will almost always confront something that seems (it is) incredibly unfair.  Traits really did a lot to ruin this game's PvP from a spectator/esport perspective--particularly because they are really the foundational mechanic upon which the elite specialization system is built.  Nobody new to GW2 is going to watch its PvP and understand ANYTHING about what's going on.  That's not a glowing comment to GW2's depth or complexity; it's a call-out to GW2's awful design when it comes to combat legibility and lack of true roles.  Beyond that, if anyone ever feels like they need to complain about any e-spec being waaaay too overtuned, it's almost always better framed as a critique on the trait system itself rather than "Ah-bloo-bloo-bloo, cata/soulbeast/gunblade/etc."  Traits enable that trash in the first place.

I mean just take a look at ele - Magnetic Aura and an earth weapon skill (I forget exactly which it is) do the same thing - but one has an animation... and the other doesn't.  So many of these in the game.

[Swagg.9236]

1 hour ago, chromodynamix.2495 said:

I mean just take a look at ele - Magnetic Aura and an earth weapon skill (I forget exactly which it is) do the same thing - but one has an animation... and the other doesn't.  So many of these in the game.

Since the thread is about might (and our conversation is about traits), I kept it there, but you're not wrong.  GW2 is rife with gimmicks that just make absolutely zero sense, have no logical distribution, and pop game-warping effects into existence immediately without any warning and no clear indication of what they actually do at first impression.  The whole game just needs less stuff going on at any given moment.  Just because there are, like, 4 layers of buttons popping off for various reasons doesn't mean that GW2 has a high skill ceiling or deep combat (especially if, most of the time, people are more or less just doing PvE-tier rotations for all of the benefits that we're discussing).

[Rhailex.2513]

Quote

Every build that has ever had passive 25 might has been op.

On 8/3/2023 at 9:55 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Bladesworn

So your example on "every build" is only bladesworn? Is that what you base your whole thread on, one elite spec of one profession?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 8/14/2023 at 6:15 PM, Swagg.9236 said:

Since the thread is about might (and our conversation is about traits), I kept it there, but you're not wrong.  GW2 is rife with gimmicks that just make absolutely zero sense, have no logical distribution, and pop game-warping effects into existence immediately without any warning and no clear indication of what they actually do at first impression.  The whole game just needs less stuff going on at any given moment.  Just because there are, like, 4 layers of buttons popping off for various reasons doesn't mean that GW2 has a high skill ceiling or deep combat (especially if, most of the time, people are more or less just doing PvE-tier rotations for all of the benefits that we're discussing).

the problem here is any time many of us pvp veterans tried to make this argument in the past, players would come out of the woodwork to say how great it is the game is getting faster and noisier, and praising things like movement creep, talking about how good it feels to zap around everywhere, and executing a 2-3sec combo to down someone you just teleported to. yes, even some of the players who now say how bad it is were praising it in the past.

 

the animations and so on were pretty good for 2012 because the game also played much slower, and anyone can watch a youtube match from back then and see just how slow it is, when something like swiftness was considered overpowered and "shouldn't have full uptime".

 

@ thread:

i would say, out of all the issues we have now, the might stacking is probably the least of them. a player having 25 might wouldn't be so effective if they couldn't blink into existence, cast quickness, knock you down, and then take 20k health off of you before the 1sec knockdown even wears off, and that's after all the damage nerfs and removing damage from crowd control skills and so on. we're just not keeping up with the intense powercreep in literally every area.

they could nerf might down to 1-2 seconds total, and it would still be enough time to delete someone with it. out of all the seasons i've played, the current meta is probably the closest to pve gameplay that i've ever seen.

Edited August 16, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134