Damage is too high, another reason to not play support

[Flowki.7194]

I think the battle has been lost between support combating dps with healing+mitigation+CC, becuase many of the dps specs in combination, pump out so much daze/stun/stability + high dmg, while also having evades/attacks while invuln. Its getting to the point where the only workable tactic is to deliberatly push in first, then chain blocls/immunes/dodges, not die in 10 seconds, which means youve wasted their time, and might allow your team to win the dps race. If they attack my teammates thats actually worse, since they don't have as much immune/block.. and its nion impossible to keep them up vs 2 compitant burst specs, who can't be CC'd, or have 2x stunbreaks.

 

The game seems to have shifted into a positioning one. Whoever gets caught out first, dies.. and support offers nothing much in that playstyle. It litterally seems more efficiant now to just play a dps and kill/cleave the target to res any fallen teammates.. who are essentially just ''bait''.

 

 

 

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

33 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I think the battle has been lost between support combating dps with healing+mitigation+CC, becuase many of the dps specs in combination, pump out so much daze/stun/stability + high dmg, while also having evades/attacks while invuln. Its getting to the point where the only workable tactic is to deliberatly push in first, then chain blocls/immunes/dodges, not die in 10 seconds, which means youve wasted their time, and might allow your team to win the dps race. If they attack my teammates thats actually worse, since they don't have as much immune/block.. and its nion impossible to keep them up vs 2 compitant burst specs, who can't be CC'd, or have 2x stunbreaks.

 

The game seems to have shifted into a positioning one. Whoever gets caught out first, dies.. and support offers nothing much in that playstyle. It litterally seems more efficiant now to just play a dps and kill/cleave the target to res any fallen teammates.. who are essentially just ''bait''.

 

 

 

Supports are actually more viable in a burst meta, since glassy specs are typically awful at resustaining themselves. Since things die quickly, insta rez utilities are that much better. 

Tanky bruiser metas are where supports are useless 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just support better (players) 💀🪑

47 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The game seems to have shifted into a positioning one.

YES

EXACTLY

Quote

Whoever gets caught out first, dies.. and support offers nothing much in that playstyle.

You cant support people that run mid to die, this is true. This is also not new. I bet any healer can tell you how dumb their DPS is.

Quote

It litterally seems more efficiant now to just play a dps and kill/cleave the target to res any fallen teammates.. who are essentially just ''bait''.

Good. What do you wanna do, revive them? after they ate 20k for not being in the right place and died? What are you some kind of goody-two-shoes? 

Some kinda good Samaritan? 

Some... iunno, un-jaded FF14 white mage?  Give it time if you're that last one.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261
Obviously I'm taking the kitten but I 100% mean the underlying theme of "being outpositioned is a skill issue"

[ArthurDent.9538]

Support is still strong. Stupid players are still stupid.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I think the battle has been lost between support combating dps with healing+mitigation+CC, becuase many of the dps specs in combination, pump out so much daze/stun/stability + high dmg, while also having evades/attacks while invuln. Its getting to the point where the only workable tactic is to deliberatly push in first, then chain blocls/immunes/dodges, not die in 10 seconds, which means youve wasted their time, and might allow your team to win the dps race. If they attack my teammates thats actually worse, since they don't have as much immune/block.. and its nion impossible to keep them up vs 2 compitant burst specs, who can't be CC'd, or have 2x stunbreaks.

 

The game seems to have shifted into a positioning one. Whoever gets caught out first, dies.. and support offers nothing much in that playstyle. It litterally seems more efficiant now to just play a dps and kill/cleave the target to res any fallen teammates.. who are essentially just ''bait''.

 

 

 

Druid Support is actually good right now.

Between Lyhr relic and Protective Ward on pet swap, it's capable of mitigating A LOT of damage for its team.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Supports are actually more viable in a burst meta, since glassy specs are typically awful at resustaining themselves. Since things die quickly, insta rez utilities are that much better. 

Tanky bruiser metas are where supports are useless 

This isn't glass though.. most of the popular specs now have 16k+ hp with full zerker, multiple stuns, stealth, evades while attacking, target drops, immunes while attacking, instant stability.

 

Go back to cata meta, 13khp, 1 hard cc, no attacking back while immune/blocking, combo stability, and dmg spread across 4 attunements. Cmon, lets not act like the game got harder to survive while doing burst.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Druid Support is actually good right now.

Between Lyhr relic and Protective Ward on pet swap, it's capable of mitigating A LOT of damage for its team.

Im not suggesting supports are bad in the right situation, as in around closely skilled compitant players.. but I never get those games, ever. Its noramlly 3 gold+level playres, then 7 silver/bronze.

 

Now I know that means nothing to you, or players in high plat, but im not high plat, and so long as they are intent on giving me games with such a wide range of skill above and below me, then they simply have to consider balance in that context also. Even before the xpack I think we all know power was doing very good, dps dominate the game.. and trying to play support for the avg person is a handi cap given the mm system.. it only got worse after xpac.

 

Are any of you going to say you'll have a good game as  a gold 1 support if the enemy team has a compitant gold3+ SB+mesmer? 4/5x stuns, multiple dazes, gap closers, massive dmg, stability or 2z stunbreaks so I can't cc. I actually have more chance winning those games when I play dps, becuase I can actually kill them.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Im not suggesting supports are bad in the right situation, as in around closely skilled compitant players.. but I never get those games, ever. Its noramlly 3 gold+level playres, then 7 silver/bronze.

i've noticed that in my games this season there's been a huge uptick of players who don't even know the basics of pvp. this has made it very risky to play support as support is a force multiplier and if your team is bad then you can't carry them no matter how much you try.

 

i think i've dropped more ranks on my heal tempest this season than i have on just playing meme builds.

Edited September 6, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[youle.5824]

2 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think i've dropped more ranks on my heal tempest this season than i have on just playing meme builds.

Playing supp in rank never did great either way, it relies too much on having descent teammate able to get kills. At least on meme build you can get kills when your team isnt

[Flowki.7194]

28 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i've noticed that in my games this season there's been a huge uptick of players who don't even know the basics of pvp. this has made it very risky to play support as support is a force multiplier and if your team is bad then you can't carry them no matter how much you try.

 

i think i've dropped more ranks on my heal tempest this season than i have on just playing meme builds.

Yeah ive seen quite a lot of the same and got no idea how I can be put in the same game, and how it can be remotely fun for them either. Im not pretending to be great, but cmon, its such a huge gap, then I get put against high plats also...

[Shagie.7612]

it's only really a couple outliers.

the rest of this is just a "give me back catalyst" post
why bother pretending like it's anything else

just say you think unnerfed catalyst was fine lol

[veritech.1048]

There's a reason there's only two truly viable support specs.

The other supports simply cannot compete without being carried by their group. Hell, supports have always been carried by their group because as someone mentioned, they're a force multiplier.

It is currently very discouraging to play support because more so than running any other build I am entirely reliant on if I managed to snag a good group, and even when I do have a good one, I am constantly playing on the backfoot because my sustain is only giving my side maybe 5 seconds to outburst the other guys.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

it's only really a couple outliers.

the rest of this is just a "give me back catalyst" post
why bother pretending like it's anything else

just say you think unnerfed catalyst was fine lol

What? thats not it at all, youre completely wrong on that.

 

I played most of the time as tempest, moderate amount on FA power scepter/hammer cata, vindi support, chorno, and lately an off meta SB loadout, and then enough on other common specs just to see how they work. I actually like vindi support most of all. I didn't play condi cata becuase I already knew how it worked, mechanically, it was mostly the same as the condi build many tempests (and myself) used way before the trait change. What made it OP on cata was the sigs giving stability, if that alone was removed, they would not be CC immune, would have to change attunement far quicker, and their condi dmg would drop like a stone. I know that for a fact becuase thats how the tempest build was.. with no stability, and nobody ever complained about my dmg on tempest, who also got a lot of might. I never played condi cata becuase it simply wasnt balanced.

 

Condi cata was not fine, but SB is far worse in the hands of the avg player, it was easy to clense newb fire stacks of condi cata, gl dodging the 4x cc and multiple high dmg abilitys on SB+evades/high dmg gap closers, far harder work around and you kitten well know it. Just take hunters call followed by smoke assasin. Garunteed to burn dodges and a block, while being an easy gap closer. Its absoltely astounding how much other dmg/utility/CC SB has even after that combo. I said in another post, I played the SB meta build for a few days, got a 16k pig maul crit for litterally pressing 2 buttons.. and never played it again. What kind of player wants to win like that?, certainly not me.

 

Scepter power cata was more balanced in terms of effort/reward, it was over performing only for the top players (bad power catas die fast and were no threat, go on say that isnt true), but they gutted it now so that its not worth playing. The game did not get better as a result of nerfing a high skillfloor spec into the ground. That simply opened the door for more lower skill floor specs being more rewarging. I wasn't even getting at any of this.. but since you assumed.

 

For the record, FA sceptert power cata is still the hardest thing I have played ( I have not played untamed but that does look harder from browsing its mechancis). I know people don't like to hear that.. and suprisngly, vindi support is also up there in difficulty/effort/rewrd. Having such specs underperforming is just not good for the game, but again, if both were equally viable.. Id play vindi support, just to remind you im not bias.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Druid Support is actually good right now.

Between Lyhr relic and Protective Ward on pet swap, it's capable of mitigating A LOT of damage for its team.

It's not THAT good. Vs a non support team, you can def generate value. However, when you are 5v5 vs a core guard, the power difference is clear. It's playable, but suboptimal vs an optimal support. 

Lyhr makes you get wrecked if you're getting focused and the enemy team is also throwing out AoEs. You take too much dmg in big teamfights with it. Sometimes it feels strong, but it's a liability in many situations and I'd call it a noob trap relic. I'd honestly just go antitoxin to make yourself immune to condis, which gives you more leeway with Glyph of Stars. 

IMO the most viable off meta support is heal shout ZERKER. It's tanky, has extremely high healing throughput, and cucks thieves in teamfights, particularly if your team is good and capitalizes on your reveal. Strongest support vs deadeye with good teammates. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[magickthief.6492]

8 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

This isn't glass though.. most of the popular specs now have 16k+ hp with full zerker, multiple stuns, stealth, evades while attacking, target drops, immunes while attacking, instant stability.

wtf, no class has all of those at one time.  what class has this?

[StefanB.4928]

13 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The game seems to have shifted into a positioning one.

We had metas where the direct opposite was true, where a good support could allow thier group to facetank a lot of dmg. I welcome a combination of good positioning, smart use of terrain and quality support. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

It's not THAT good. Vs a non support team, you can def generate value. However, when you are 5v5 vs a core guard, the power difference is clear. It's playable, but suboptimal vs an optimal support. 

Lyhr makes you get wrecked if you're getting focused and the enemy team is also throwing out AoEs. You take too much dmg in big teamfights with it. Sometimes it feels strong, but it's a liability in many situations and I'd call it a noob trap relic. I'd honestly just go antitoxin to make yourself immune to condis, which gives you more leeway with Glyph of Stars. 

IMO the most viable off meta support is heal shout ZERKER. It's tanky, has extremely high healing throughput, and cucks thieves in teamfights, particularly if your team is good and capitalizes on your reveal. Strongest support vs deadeye with good teammates. 

I dunno man. I've been testing this build a lot lately. It feels extremely functional, even in AT play.

If you click the link in my sig, there is recent footage of it from tonight's play test. There are two parts to it due to a DC and reconnect which split the VOD.

I mean seriously, if you watch what this build is pulling off, or if you have had to go against it, it may change your opinion.

I'm not saying it's ultra mode but it is every bit as viable of a support as Tempest or Core Guard. People just haven't quite realized how Druid Support is played differently yet. It's very powerful when you start figuring it out.

[Flowki.7194]

10 hours ago, magickthief.6492 said:

wtf, no class has all of those at one time.  what class has this?

I didn't say one spec (although SB does, technically). I mean the combinations of dps, like say a SB/chrono/scrapper. They all have stealth, their is a HUGE amount of CC/daze between them, target drops, and invulns/blocks while being able to attack back. Being able to put out high burst while also being immune/spamming CC has really shifted the way this game is now played. Dps that cannot attack while blocking/immune are instantly at a disadvantedge due to not being to keep pressure applied while mitigating. Also think of it this way from a support POV, if you miss a CC on a dps through a dodge/invuln/block, its a huge deal becuase they can kill you in seconds. If the dps misses a CC on you as support, its not a huge deal for them, since you won't be able to punish them.  Thats just 1 dps, imagine 2 or 3. Now here is the important part, becuase their is alot of evades and attacking back while immune, it means the supports DPS cannot instantly pressure the enemy dps into retreat. Think back to the power scetper cata (yes I know it was too good), but the princible of it. The cata could not tank massive dmg, pressure them, they had to block/immune or super speed out. That allowed dps to take the heat off support much easier. I think a lot of people look at this kind of thing only from 1v1 perspectives, or only from the experiance of playing dps.. while applying plat level environements that 95% of us don't actaully play in.

 

9 hours ago, StefanB.4928 said:

We had metas where the direct opposite was true, where a good support could allow thier group to facetank a lot of dmg. I welcome a combination of good positioning, smart use of terrain and quality support. 

I do to, thats exactly what the point of this post is. I am not against burst specs at all, they have their place.. but not 60% representation, while support is like 5%, thats clearly highlighting a fundemental issue with the game. Buff supports or nerf the burst/application of it.

 

An option that would help support is to cap the matchmaking system for more equal dps skill matchups (that the biggest issue imo). Second, raise the skill floor OR risk of doing damage. Chrono/SB damage is genuinely not hard to do. Survival is another thing, but it doens't justify the dmg they achieve in pressing 4 buttons from ranges where initialy counter play is limited.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Aaron.1294]

If game didn't have heal skill support wouldn't be that big of a problem in balancing. but the fact that every class has self sustain build-in their own kits makes dmg go significantly higher so we won't get again pure bunker bs meta...

[magickthief.6492]

ranger has thief damage, but self sustain on par with guardian and ele. this is the main outlier in the game. dps ok, then no more self sustain...or vice versa...

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Don't want to delve into it too much but, Druid support is fine until you get CC chained.  

I agree with the take that support in SoloQ is mostly useless as teammates don't stack and run around / die all the time.  It's much better to be offensive with possibly some support (as it seems Trevor's Druid build was aiming to be above) or just be totally offensive and spawn camp the other team.

Or, your 'support' is now just a decapper / node staller, like you can build with core guard, tempest, etc.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/7/2023 at 6:58 AM, Flowki.7194 said:

Yeah ive seen quite a lot of the same and got no idea how I can be put in the same game, and how it can be remotely fun for them either. Im not pretending to be great, but cmon, its such a huge gap, then I get put against high plats also...

Low population. There's been issues with matchmaking quality in ranked for a while, and it wouldn't surprise me if there are people who've taken the change to how dailies work as the final push to quit or take an extended break from sPvP.

[Flowki.7194]

On 9/7/2023 at 7:07 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I dunno man. I've been testing this build a lot lately. It feels extremely functional, even in AT play.

If you click the link in my sig, there is recent footage of it from tonight's play test. There are two parts to it due to a DC and reconnect which split the VOD.

I mean seriously, if you watch what this build is pulling off, or if you have had to go against it, it may change your opinion.

I'm not saying it's ultra mode but it is every bit as viable of a support as Tempest or Core Guard. People just haven't quite realized how Druid Support is played differently yet. It's very powerful when you start figuring it out.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 7:07 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I dunno man. I've been testing this build a lot lately. It feels extremely functional, even in AT play.

If you click the link in my sig, there is recent footage of it from tonight's play test. There are two parts to it due to a DC and reconnect which split the VOD.

I mean seriously, if you watch what this build is pulling off, or if you have had to go against it, it may change your opinion.

I'm not saying it's ultra mode but it is every bit as viable of a support as Tempest or Core Guard. People just haven't quite realized how Druid Support is played differently yet. It's very powerful when you start figuring it out.

From what I seen in your clips and from fighting druids, it still doesnt seem like its good enough to hold out on its own. Vindi support is similar, its exellent with condi clense/projectile denial, good with moderate level damage, but falls apart under high burst group fights. It has stability/CC options, but the burst specs also have stability, so the lack of blocks/immunes is really felt if you are primary. That tends to happen once they realise youre support.

 

The way it feels now, a duo hybrid setup that with DD tempest+X is something Id like to try. With vindi for example, tempest will provide -40% protection almost perminantly with correct setup, which covers vindis main weakness. Vindi then provides high clensing, healing, shielding, stability, while both provide projectile denial. They both also put out decent combined damage when hybrid.

 

Aside from staff support, which is horrible to play in pugs, no other support seems to really hold out in major group fights against coodinated burst at the min, go immune/invis or die. Perhaps aside from core gaurd due to its greater ability to face tank.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Don't want to delve into it too much but, Druid support is fine until you get CC chained.  

I mean... good.

Protect your support from getting CC chained and they'll support you. I like how that sounds. 

[arazoth.7290]

52 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

From what I seen in your clips and from fighting druids, it still doesnt seem like its good enough to hold out on its own. Vindi support is similar, its exellent with condi clense/projectile denial, good with moderate level damage, but falls apart under high burst group fights. It has stability/CC options, but the burst specs also have stability, so the lack of blocks/immunes is really felt if you are primary. That tends to happen once they realise youre support.

 

The way it feels now, a duo hybrid setup that with DD tempest+X is something Id like to try. With vindi for example, tempest will provide -40% protection almost perminantly with correct setup, which covers vindis main weakness. Vindi then provides high clensing, healing, shielding, stability, while both provide projectile denial. They both also put out decent combined damage when hybrid.

It can deal pretty good when under high pressure also though. vindis main weakness protection uptime? even as no support you have high protection uptime and as support even higher for you and allies