Power Creep, The game is too easy [Merged]

[Sobx.1758]

21 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

You know, I want to thank you. I didn't even know that training center EXISTED, much less I could use it to test my DPS and see how I stack up. And now I know I should probably uninstall the game.

I actually AM that worthless player in full ascended gear, legendary staff, and I'm only doing 3.2k dps. Honestly, reading through this thread and seeing people talking about the power creep and doing 20k, 30k, 40k, 45k dps is so mind boggling that....yeah, I think something is wrong. I'm not sure if it's me, or if it's the power creep in the game. I was proud because I've done everything. I did all the stories. I do fractals. I do metas. And now I'm pretty sure that I've literally never contributed anything ever to anything I've ever done.

Benchmarks use a specific setup to try and imitate conditions present in more organized squads, details on "how to set up" here:
https://snowcrows.com/guides/getting-started/special-forces-area

[Hesione.9412]

6 hours ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Do someone knows? Is dps tied to fps?

It sure as heck is tied to ping. Higher ping == lower dps, generally. This is particularly so when needing to do weapon swap or stow, or cast a skill within the cast of another skill.

[Kozumi.5816]

7 hours ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Do someone knows? Is dps tied to fps?

No, this game is not BDO

[BumboJumbo.1308]

Why is everyone so hung up on dps numbers?

Did anyone actually read the post?

 

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Why is everyone so hung up on dps numbers?

Did anyone actually read the post?

 

People did the discussion have evolved over 6 pages tho.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

5 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

People did the discussion have evolved over 6 pages tho.

That doesn't mean that people read the post though. 

The post was saying how the new builds are great, but what came with it was power creep to the point that the only thing that they consider hard is htcm. Further, they want to see older content becoming harder or newer content that came with soto to be hard/harder.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:21 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

That does not happen. The best you can hope for is for that pet to give you a participation in the events other players completed.

Not true. The mech can solo most stuff in game. Degenerate pet spec.

[toorichforyou.6743]

12 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

HoT supports didn't do 32k+ DPS. Everyone always forgets to factor this in.

Every world boss melts now, and all instanced content as well. This game is "play the expac if you want things that don't insta die" but we get 1/10th the content real MMO's get.

Play the expac MMO design does not work in a game with such an anemic content schedule, and Anet doesn't want to invest to resources into a proper content update schedule so they should stop trying to copy themeparks.

This(cmc and roy cant balance for kitten)/ anet has no money for updates because they go to the gemstore= this current iteration of the game we are playing. 

[Panda.1967]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:32 AM, Caffynated.5713 said:

Yes, I'm aware that 8 years ago was Pre-HoT. 

I don't see how anyone is still doing that little damage. As long as your support is buffing you, you can pull 10k+ just spamming 1 with all but the worst weapons.  You would have to be fighting in Soldier gear to do that little. 

This may come as a surprise to you… but the average player doesn’t actually have the support of a large guild or 13 hours a day to grind out ascended gear and legendaries… the average player is kitted out in whatever exotics they can get their hands on, and often don’t even have a full set of accessories let alone a full set of runes. Many even have a mix of random runes. Additionally being largely solo players they aren’t well versed in placement for group events and may frequently miss out on buffs because they were not actually in the deathball.

[Passerbye.6291]

12 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

This may come as a surprise to you… but the average player doesn’t actually have the support of a large guild or 13 hours a day to grind out ascended gear and legendaries… the average player is kitted out in whatever exotics they can get their hands on, and often don’t even have a full set of accessories let alone a full set of runes. Many even have a mix of random runes. Additionally being largely solo players they aren’t well versed in placement for group events and may frequently miss out on buffs because they were not actually in the deathball.

A full set of exotic armor with berserker stats can be purchased as cheap as around 3 gold from the TP, accessories and backpieces tend to be higher, but you can easily get them for free from various places. Anyone who can read should have the capacity to recognize that the stats on runes strongly urge you to complete the set. Usually, when someone says, I don't know how a person can deal this little damage, the number in question tends to be so low that anyone can go past it with auto attacks alone with no buffs provided by others.

Basically, there is no excuse for doing absolutely nonsensical things. Instead of trying to justify people not even reading their tooltips or asking in map chat in one of the major cities for help on how to gear etc. maybe we should have them rise up to the "challenge" at hand. Let's be real people, with few exceptions, this game has little challenge to offer, especially in open world content, if you are struggling there, chances are, you need to work on improving your gear/gameplay and it is ok. You're not supposed to roll your face on your keyboard and get perfect results.

About the support of a large guild and 13 hours to play a day, I farmed multiple sets of ascended gear, my skyscale, capped my masteries, did a fair bit of endgame content while working 6 days a week, stop exaggerating the time investment this game requires to obtain ascended gear. If you only play 1-2 hours here and there, you'll still get there, it will just take more days.

[soulknight.9620]

@OP wdym? Dont you enjoy killing raid bosses in a burst or two while skipping loads of phases? Scourge could use some more dps for sure. /s

Edited September 26, 2023 by soulknight.9620

[Panda.1967]

14 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

A full set of exotic armor with berserker stats can be purchased as cheap as around 3 gold from the TP, accessories and backpieces tend to be higher, but you can easily get them for free from various places. Anyone who can read should have the capacity to recognize that the stats on runes strongly urge you to complete the set. Usually, when someone says, I don't know how a person can deal this little damage, the number in question tends to be so low that anyone can go past it with auto attacks alone with no buffs provided by others.

Basically, there is no excuse for doing absolutely nonsensical things. Instead of trying to justify people not even reading their tooltips or asking in map chat in one of the major cities for help on how to gear etc. maybe we should have them rise up to the "challenge" at hand. Let's be real people, with few exceptions, this game has little challenge to offer, especially in open world content, if you are struggling there, chances are, you need to work on improving your gear/gameplay and it is ok. You're not supposed to roll your face on your keyboard and get perfect results.

About the support of a large guild and 13 hours to play a day, I farmed multiple sets of ascended gear, my skyscale, capped my masteries, did a fair bit of endgame content while working 6 days a week, stop exaggerating the time investment this game requires to obtain ascended gear. If you only play 1-2 hours here and there, you'll still get there, it will just take more days.

How easy some things may be to get is irrelevant to the reality of the situation. Some people just simply aren’t observant enough to notice some things, or are too stubborn to care. I personally know several people who won’t even make an effort to sort out their gear once they hit max level. One of my closest friends still isn’t even wearing full level 80 exotics to this day because, and I quote:  “I don’t care about the gear grind, I just want to play the game”. For the record, I’ve mailed them a full set of exotics and matching runes, they still didn’t use them. And that sort of mentality is actually far more common than you might think. People aren’t quoting these abysmally low DPS numbers for no reason, they are quoting them because they are very real.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Passerbye.6291]

14 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

How easy some things may be to get is irrelevant to the reality of the situation. Some people just simply aren’t observant enough to notice some things, or are too stubborn to care. I personally know several people who won’t even make an effort to sort out their gear once they hit max level. One of my closest friends still isn’t even wearing full level 80 exotics to this day because, and I quote:  “I don’t care about the gear grind, I just want to play the game”. For the record, I’ve mailed them a full set of exotics and matching runes, they still didn’t use them. And that sort of mentality is actually far more common than you might think. People aren’t quoting these abysmally low DPS numbers for no reason, they are quoting them because they are very real.

Yeah, and that's why we need a healthy dose of natural selection in this game instead of trying to make the game accommodate the people you've provided the examples of.
"I just want to play the game" *proceeds to ignore absolute key mechanics in the game*, becoming a burden for everyone else whenever he/she participates in group content. Because common sense or decency are ironically rare qualities to come by these days.

I'm perfectly fine with casual players, people who only wish to play LI builds, people who can't pull off an even easy rotation, all I want when I lead content is for people to actually put in effort to do the best they can, their best don't need to be a certain percentage of benchmarks, I have yet to find anyone actually trying and being unable to do the damage required for any content I led before, and this includes raids, strikes, fractal CMs etc.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Not true. The mech can solo most stuff in game. Degenerate pet spec.

We're at a point where everything can solo most stuff in the game. 

[Panda.1967]

9 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Yeah, and that's why we need a healthy dose of natural selection in this game instead of trying to make the game accommodate the people you've provided the examples of.
"I just want to play the game" *proceeds to ignore absolute key mechanics in the game*, becoming a burden for everyone else whenever he/she participates in group content. Because common sense or decency are ironically rare qualities to come by these days.

I'm perfectly fine with casual players, people who only wish to play LI builds, people who can't pull off an even easy rotation, all I want when I lead content is for people to actually put in effort to do the best they can, their best don't need to be a certain percentage of benchmarks, I have yet to find anyone actually trying and being unable to do the damage required for any content I led before, and this includes raids, strikes, fractal CMs etc.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending their behavior or mentality… it annoys the crap out of me too… I’m just speaking the truth of why these insanely low DPS numbers keep showing up.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Yeah, and that's why we need a healthy dose of natural selection in this game instead of trying to make the game accommodate the people you've provided the examples of.

A "natural selection" that would get rid of most of this game's players is very far from what i'd call healthy.

As long as the game systems are based not on natural learning but one dependant on out-of-game resource search, and as long as the gap between those that do not understand the build system and those that passed that hurdle remains so massive we will keep having those issues.

[Passerbye.6291]

47 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

A "natural selection" that would get rid of most of this game's players is very far from what i'd call healthy.

As long as the game systems are based not on natural learning but one dependant on out-of-game resource search, and as long as the gap between those that do not understand the build system and those that passed that hurdle remains so massive we will keep having those issues.

If "most of the playerbase" is incapable of reading rune tooltips, are incapable of asking things in map chat for when they require more information than is readily available in the game, can't be bothered to even try to contribute as much as they can when participating in group content, then we have a lot bigger problems than just this one game. 

I'm really tired of people trying to excuse bad behaviour or plain stupidity by making casual players out to be this absolutely incompetent worthless leeches, while there are builds available that can reach every dps check in this game with auto attacks alone.
At some point people will need to realize that powercreep does nothing to address the issue of there being people doing 2-4k damage per second on a stationary boss, if anything, it makes it worse, because the more damage they make available to people, the lazier these people get (and no, these people don't do this low damage because they are casual, they do so because they simply don't care to improve, I can help any casual player do a lot more damage than that). Meanwhile anyone who does put in the effort feels more and more content become absolutely irrelevant.

At some point, instead of trying to be super inclusive and whatnot, you know the usual BS, we need to tell people to get good. I truly refuse to believe anyone is so bad that they are unable to do at least auto attacks, and I'm willing to take anyone who speaks and understand english up on that. Now, if you just don't care to do well and just want to be handed things with the game becoming a theme park, then you are a big part of the problem. Because the vast majority of the game is already doable with a minion necro, not even pressing buttons, and yet you feel the need to try to justify needless powercreep so that you can shut your brain off more efficiently, and ruin the game for people who actually want some challenge in the game for what little content there is one can call "challenging endgame"

In order to paint a clearer picture, you can have one person hit 1 once with their nose on a rifle mechanist, and said person will meet dps checks for the rest of the fight. For more hardcore gameplay, engage bosses with multiple phases so you need to use your nose again to hit 1 once to reengage the boss after each phase. Similarly, a heal herald can toggle Facet of Light, Facet of Chaos, Facet of Elements and Facet of Darkness and retoggle them back up after running out of energy  and just auto attack on staff to permanently sustain Quickness, Might, Fury, Swiftness, Protection and Regeneration in a massive 600 radius, while providing 2k heal per second to a 240 radius and 1k heal to anyone who is farther than 240 but still within 600 radius.
Now, if you are telling me people are incapable of this, the problem isn't the game.

Edit: Btw, I soloed some champions and legendaries completely naked, only using a single level 4 white staff (level 4 has lower damage than a level 1) on staff mirage to prove a point before. If I can do that with my average skill level, anyone should be able to contribute sufficiently with proper gear/traits.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Passerbye.6291
Added a small paragraph

[Woof.8246]

 

23 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

At some point, instead of trying to be super inclusive and whatnot, you know the usual BS, we need to tell people to get good. .... Now, if you just don't care to do well and just want to be handed things with the game becoming a theme park, then you are a big part of the problem. 

Whats if we create a scenario where people don't need to interact and create this hostility ?

[Passerbye.6291]

1 hour ago, Woof.8246 said:

Whats if we create a scenario where people don't need to interact and create this hostility ?

You are free to do so by not engaging in instanced group content, in open world stuff noone really cares, with the exception of end of dragons meta. In instanced content, if you say "hi, dps" I expect you to do as much damage as you reasonably can, similarly, if you say you are a quickness or alacrity healer, I expect you to provide high uptime on whichever you are providing, as well as heal.

It is common courtesy to not grief a run when you join a group of people, you should do what you can to help your group and I cannot stress this enough, if you do this, it is truly difficult to be the leech I mentioned.

Edit: We keep talking about toxic elitism and whatnot, but somehow people are completely fine with a person absolutely not contributing to the group by doing 2-4k dps, repeatedly dying, sometimes wiping the group by doing a mechanic wrong after not saying anything about not knowing the mechanics for the fight. That is called griefing my friend, and it is not ok to make the game a worse experience for 9 other people.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Passerbye.6291
Edit: Added a small paragraph

[Woof.8246]

8 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

You are free to do so by not engaging in instanced group content, in open world stuff noone really cares, with the exception of end of dragons meta. In instanced content, if you say "hi, dps" I expect you to do as much damage as you reasonably can, similarly, if you say you are a quickness or alacrity healer, I expect you to provide high uptime on whichever you are providing, as well as heal.

It is common courtesy to not grief a run when you join a group of people, you should do what you can to help your group and I cannot stress this enough, if you do this, it is truly difficult to be the leech I mentioned.

Edit: We keep talking about toxic elitistm and whatnot, but somehow people are completely fine with a person absolutely not contributing to the group by doing 2-4k dps, repeatedly dying, sometimes wiping the group by doing a mechanic wrong after not saying anything about not knowing the mechanics for the fight. That is called griefing my friend, and it is not ok to make the game a worse experience for 9 other people.

Hopefully the company should takes notes about that

[Astralporing.1957]

10 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

If "most of the playerbase" is incapable of reading rune tooltips, are incapable of asking things in map chat for when they require more information than is readily available in the game, can't be bothered to even try to contribute as much as they can when participating in group content, then we have a lot bigger problems than just this one game.

They can read, and they can ask about more informations. That's not where the problem is. Most people (hint: that includes most hardcores, btw) are just incapable of understanding the whole complexity of the build system. They may understand every single part of it, but they just don't have clear picture about how they work together. There's actually a ton of people out there that think they worked hard on their build, without realizing that build is trash.

Now, that is another issue: the visibility of problems. Most players are completely unaware of how big the effectiveness gaps are. They may think they sacrificed a small amount of dps for some increase in survivability without realizing they (for example) dropped their dps by 3/4 to gain a very minor, 5% survivability increase. Or that the set of traits they thought will give them a better dps actually does not work as good as they assumed.

In order to go out looking for answers, you need to first know what the relevant questions are. Or that you need to ask about anything in the first place. And the game is absolutely terrible about delivering relevant informations to the players.

10 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

I'm really tired of people trying to excuse bad behaviour or plain stupidity by making casual players out to be this absolutely incompetent worthless leeches, while there are builds available that can reach every dps check in this game with auto attacks alone.

What good such a build does if you are unaware of its existence, or even of the fact that you might need one?

10 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

At some point people will need to realize that powercreep does nothing to address the issue of there being people doing 2-4k damage per second on a stationary boss, if anything, it makes it worse, because the more damage they make available to people, the lazier these people get (and no, these people don't do this low damage because they are casual, they do so because they simply don't care to improve, I can help any casual player do a lot more damage than that). Meanwhile anyone who does put in the effort feels more and more content become absolutely irrelevant.

You are right, powercreep does nothing to address the issue of players doing 4k dps. And you are right that it actually makes things worse. It's however for completely different reasons than you think - again, because you completely misread the issue at the core of things. Most people are not "lazy". They are simply unaware of how they can improve (or that they even need to improve). The powercreep does nothing to them, because it requires certain level of base knowledge they can't even access and are unaware it even exists. And it increases the gap between the top and average, with potentially damaging consequences on everyone (because it either makes things harder for average players with them incapable of following suit, or makes things way too easy for top players reducing their fun factor)

10 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

At some point, instead of trying to be super inclusive and whatnot, you know the usual BS, we need to tell people to get good. I truly refuse to believe anyone is so bad that they are unable to do at least auto attacks, and I'm willing to take anyone who speaks and understand english up on that.

What good doing autoattacks might be if you're not running a decent build? Someone in full Nomads (as a most extreme example - and one i have personally seen) will do next to zero dps no matter what skills they will use.

10 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Now, if you just don't care to do well and just want to be handed things with the game becoming a theme park, then you are a big part of the problem. Because the vast majority of the game is already doable with a minion necro, not even pressing buttons, and yet you feel the need to try to justify needless powercreep so that you can shut your brain off more efficiently, and ruin the game for people who actually want some challenge in the game for what little content there is one can call "challenging endgame"

Most people that are doing ~4k dps do not try to "justify needless powercreep". First, because they are not posting on the forums or reddit. Second, because they are not even aware there is a powercreep.

10 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

In order to paint a clearer picture, you can have one person hit 1 once with their nose on a rifle mechanist, and said person will meet dps checks for the rest of the fight. For more hardcore gameplay, engage bosses with multiple phases so you need to use your nose again to hit 1 once to reengage the boss after each phase. Similarly, a heal herald can toggle Facet of Light, Facet of Chaos, Facet of Elements and Facet of Darkness and retoggle them back up after running out of energy  and just auto attack on staff to permanently sustain Quickness, Might, Fury, Swiftness, Protection and Regeneration in a massive 600 radius, while providing 2k heal per second to a 240 radius and 1k heal to anyone who is farther than 240 but still within 600 radius.
Now, if you are telling me people are incapable of this, the problem isn't the game.

The people are incapable of this because they are not running the builds you assume they do. They won't autoattack with Mechanist's rifle or use Herald's facets, because they are running a sword/shield Warrior. A sword/shield Warrior tank, no less. Or firing a longbow on a Ranger built for survival (and i don't mean the traitline). With a bear for a pet.

[Passerbye.6291]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They can read, and they can ask about more informations.

Didn't want to make it super long by quoting the entire thing, but I want you to know that I got PTSD flashbacks from reading the abominable combinations you mentioned, did give me a good giggle though, so thank you for that. 

I'm aware these exist, that's why I say people should ask for help, usually, if anyone asks about builds or how certain mechanics work in a populated city, people will help them out, I know I did on multiple occasions.

I really don't think traits are that complex, but I do recognize that my opinion on the matter is likely biased simply because I played the game for a long time, familiarizing myself with how things work. 
In an ideal world, I'd prefer there to be better tutorials, or ingame recommendations to acclimate people with how certain stats/traits etc. function, but this is what we have, similarly, I also wish there was gradual progression in core difficulty instead of being a snoozefest all the way to 80 and then face a massive jump in difficulty the moment you walk into HoT content. But this is what we have, and it is still fairly easy to educate yourself on matters should you desire to do so, because the playerbase we have is one of the most helpful among any of the MMOs I played. Also, regarding tutorials, we do also have the problem of people not paying attention to them. For instance, for the longest time, people complained about there not being any tutorials on combo fields/finishers or defiance bar and crowd control skills. But they literally added small tutorials for them in EoD, and people who do own and play EoD still complain about the absence of those tutorials simply because they autopiloted past everything (I do wish these were in core tutorial and not EoD though).

Edited September 26, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Woof.8246]

13 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

 But this is what we have, and it is still fairly easy to educate yourself on matters should you desire to do so, because the playerbase we have is one of the most helpful among any of the MMOs I played. 

For the WvW and OW community i agree , with the above statement . The rest , they are on par with other mmos

Edited September 26, 2023 by Woof.8246

[xellink.7568]

21 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

HoT supports didn't do 32k+ DPS. Everyone always forgets to factor this in.

Every world boss melts now, and all instanced content as well. This game is "play the expac if you want things that don't insta die" but we get 1/10th the content real MMO's get.

Play the expac MMO design does not work in a game with such an anemic content schedule, and Anet doesn't want to invest to resources into a proper content update schedule so they should stop trying to copy themeparks.

It didn't do 15k either. And chrono could give both alac and quickness. 100% is an exaggeration. 

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

How easy some things may be to get is irrelevant to the reality of the situation. Some people just simply aren’t observant enough to notice some things, or are too stubborn to care. I personally know several people who won’t even make an effort to sort out their gear once they hit max level. One of my closest friends still isn’t even wearing full level 80 exotics to this day because, and I quote:  “I don’t care about the gear grind, I just want to play the game”. For the record, I’ve mailed them a full set of exotics and matching runes, they still didn’t use them. And that sort of mentality is actually far more common than you might think. People aren’t quoting these abysmally low DPS numbers for no reason, they are quoting them because they are very real.

Pretty sure your friend is more of an outlier than you apparently think. I also don't think taking people who literally "refuse to wear exotic gear I sent them because they are stubborn and just no!" into consideration during balance changes makes any sense. If they don't care, they can equally not care in a better balanced state of the game.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Sobx.1758