The guild system needs to be more meaningful

[willow.8209]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:09 PM, Riba.3271 said:

It means each guild is basically the same. Since if you join 5 different guilds, and participate in all of them, you will end up in average 5 times less activity in each. This means people in each guild will get to know you 5 times less and spend time with you 5 times less compared to other guild based games. 

I really haven't experienced guilds like that. 

I have a couple different guilds, and playing with one usually don't interfere with playing with the other, for me. The guild missions are typically at different times, for example. Or whatever other group event i plan to play is at a different time. Or i just chat with whomever is chatting online and don't play in groups at all, but this is nothing to do with the guild or guild structure, it's just how i am managing my own concerns. 

I also know of people who have characters on a particular world and WvW with a guild on that world, but some other guild on a different world is better for them for some other type of activity. 

I can see that you personally prefer 1 guild. That's fine.

But other people have other preferences and other perspectives. Also some people are more socially oriented than others and so people have differing abilities to manage different sizes of friend groups. Just because you feel like x  (1 guild's worth) is the right amount, doesn't mean someone else doesn't prefer more or less. I wouldn't like to assume that other people aren't invested in more than one guild. 

If you're having trouble connecting with your guild, maybe use one of those empty spots and add another, see if you connect better there.

[Wizicist.2470]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:35 PM, Riba.3271 said:

I am glad that you found useful guilds that provide you activities. Nothing here seems however something you're very invested [...] representing should be reserved for what you have emotional investment in. I just feel like there should be space for something greater and more full time, like guilds in the past. [...] Issue is, it is mostly mute gaming.But you know, I guess it is just that you're new generation GW2 player, and don't have experience with games that have solo guilds, so you don't understand what true keeping boat afloat is. True connection comes from sticking around the hard times and evolving as a group rather than just hopping to play with another guild in the list.

Why not just create the structure you want to see for your own guild? If your problem is that people wouldn't participate the way you want, then your argument literally becomes that people aren't having fun right.

Also, the next time I have to explain to students what the "No true Scotsman" fallacy is, I'm just going to reference some of the parts that I quoted. You are being incredibly condescending.

1: You have no idea whether they're invested the way you describe.

2: "Representing should be reserved..." this is literally saying that it's the proper way to handle this, which implicitly says that other ways are either wrong or flawed.

3: You don't get to dictate what "true connection" is in games.

Claiming that people "should" be contributing a majority of their time and energy to one group is tantamount to claiming that people should be devoting a majority of their time and energy to one game. If I play other games or spend time with other people, it doesn't mean that I don't have the same depth of connection with my friends. If I had a friend that told me I had to spend more time with them and their friend group than others, we wouldn't be friends anymore. That is a toxic and controlling attitude.

I get that you want something specific from a guild, and more power to you. I mean that sincerely; I hope that you can create or join a guild that fulfills you the way you want. I'm truly sorry that you haven't found one like that already. However, it is arrogant in the extreme to say that it's the way everyone should be.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Wizicist.2470
Spelling is hard on mobile

[Riba.3271]

12 hours ago, Wizicist.2470 said:

On 10/4/2023 at 6:35 AM, Riba.3271 said:

 

Why not just create the structure you want to see for your own guild? If your problem is that people wouldn't participate the way you want, then your argument literally becomes that people aren't having fun right.

Well, if people have already been in 100 different "content" guilds, they will expect the same from 101st and anything outside just catering content to them is unreasonable. They even go as far as join guilds without even reading the requirements.

12 hours ago, Wizicist.2470 said:

 

I get that you want something specific from a guild, and more power to you. I mean that sincerely; I hope that you can create or join a guild that fulfills you the way you want. I'm truly sorry that you haven't found one like that already. However, it is arrogant in the extreme to say that it's the way everyone should be.

17 hours ago, willow.8209 said:

. 

I can see that you personally prefer 1 guild. That's fine.

Nobodys saying existing guilds shouldn't be able to provide same things they are. It is more that they're less and less guildlike. They don't even have to remove guild system, they could just add like more immersive groups, they could be called clans or something that are limited to 1. Of course they need to be represented as well, but I thought it would be too much visual clutter having 1 clan and 1 guild tag so it is probably better to merge both systems.

So to be fair, I am not looking for Guild Wars 2 guild, but something greater. It could be combination of various guilds or something, but main thing is, it is limited to 1, so each member is as committed to keeping it upright as the leader.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 10/4/2023 at 5:35 AM, Riba.3271 said:

I just feel like there should be space for something greater and more full time, like guilds in the past.

And i feel like you either perceive that past through too strongly rose-tinted glasses, or that your experiences weren't truly representative of the reality of that time. Because my recollections of guilds from "good old times" are far more varied. Perhaps i have just seen more of them than you did.

On 10/4/2023 at 5:35 AM, Riba.3271 said:

I just feel like there should be space for something greater and more full time, like guilds in the past.

Well, sharing home instance resources isn't exactly what I had in mind as meaningful activity or connections. What you're describing is more of a symbiotic relationship to fill each others ingame greed.

Yes, that's how i remember quite a number of the guilds of old i had experiences with. Commonality of interests and goals, but not necessarily of personalities and social bonds.

On 10/4/2023 at 5:35 AM, Riba.3271 said:

But you know, I guess it is just that you're new generation GW2 player, and don't have experience with games that have solo guilds, so you don't understand what true keeping boat afloat is.

Let's just say i am from generation that once considered the Everquest (and other "Graphical MUD") players to be a "new wave" that concentrates too much on shallow visual gratuity and not on what is "truly important". It's quite interesting to see how times are changing, but in some way everything is still the same.

And while i do look on my old MUD times with fond remembrance, i have seen enough in my life to understand few things you seem to not see. First, things changing does not always mean a change for the worse - or for the better, for that matter. Game genres evolve because players themselves change, and games need to follow suit to remain relevant. There's no such thing as "true MMORPG player" or "true MMORPG playstyle" - there are only players sore that others find joy in playing in ways different than what they, personally like. Second, that our memories of the "good old times" aren't generally so reliable and tend to skip over many things that would not fit the overall picture we're painting.

[Taclism.2406]

I just don't think it fits gw2's (lack of) progression / overall casualness
To put it simply

1 guild limit (especially in raid oriented MMOs) implies commitment. Not only so you can gear up, but also because being limited to one makes choosing your guild something more significant - you wanna find a group you identify with.
gw2 is the complete opposite, designed to be enjoyable in bite-size at any time. Its much easier to do if you can reach & mix people from multiple guilds. But being that carefree also results in way less significant exchanges because ... you don't need any to fill a group and get stuff done

As for OP, your issue isnt gonna fixed by the game itself, but you can easily make your own requierments and see whether or not there's a public for it. Something like "tired of ghost guilds with 50%+ inactive or repping another guild? Join [x]" and make a rule thats basically "get kicked if you treat the guild like its a side-chick"

[Panda.1967]

The assertion that guilds/clans are more meaningful in other MMOs is blatantly incorrect… in most MMOs unless you were a founding member or are close friends with the original guild members, you are nothing but an extra body to pad numbers for the guild. Most guilds in other MMOs don’t care about their members at all. You can be the only one who contributes to the guild bank and you will still be seen as worthless unless you are part of the inner circle.

“Need help with the new raid? Sorry you’re not part of the raid group you’re not allowed to do the raid until we finish progressing and gearing up our actual raiders to be able to put the new raid on farm. Oh you beed help with the last raid before this one? Sorry this new raid just came out and we’re not in farm mode atm you’ll have to wait. Oh the Guildmaster’s new GF needs help with a lot of old raids, come on boys its time to farm some raids. Newbie wants to join, sorry we’re not going to carry you, you’ll just be in the way wait till we’re on farm for the new raid like we said earlier. You’ve been with the guild for 8 years? Well I don’t know you, so you must be new, newbie.”

Edited October 6, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Ashantara.8731]

On 10/3/2023 at 10:26 PM, Riba.3271 said:

This discussion is going to be little bit controversial, and definitely too late, but I feel that 5 guild system with equal standing is terrible. All guilds feel meaningless since each player there is in multiple ones, and cares very little if one of them disbands.

On the contrary: 5 is way too limiting!  10 would be sufficient.

As others already wrote, you have different guilds because they have different main focuses. For instance, I have my own 1-person guild (it started out as a mere storage guild), then I have two community guilds (needs to be two, because there are too many members to fit into only one guild), and two WvW guilds (one for my server and one in preparation of Alliances).

I would love at least one more spot for a raid-focused guild, so the limit bugs me, and I am not the only one complaining about this. 😉

[Panda.1967]

23 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

then I have two community guilds (needs to be two, because there are too many members to fit into only one guild),

This is a concept that has always bugged me… you create a second guild to add more members because the first guild got full… then you end up with 1 of two situations… you either fill the second guild with all new members and it is effectively isolated from the first… or you fill it with a bunch of members from the first and hit the member cap again quickly… either way its not actually practical for the intended purposes behind adding the second guild…

 

being in Two different Community Guilds on its own makes sense… but one community guild so large that it needs multiple guilds for its members makes no practical sense.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Barraind.7324]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:48 PM, Panda.1967 said:

now we are required to do organized guild activities to progress and most of them are impossible without adding more members to the guild

Every single guild mission is doable with at most 6 people, and many are soloable. 

I know this because ive done almost everything with at most 4 people (theres a whole 1 puzzle that requires 6 people).

Edited October 6, 2023 by Barraind.7324

[igmolicious.5986]

Instead of forcing people to pick a guild to represent for a week, I'd be more on board with something like a "participation" currency that a guild accumulates when players representing that guild earn XP/WXP, that could be used to activate timed buffs for players that are representing that guild. They could be similar to the enhancements that you can purchase from the shop in the tavern area of the guild hall, but more powerful and/or stackable with those enhancements but with a limited duration so that they could be activated before certain content for an added boost. Alternatively could also be interesting to have effects like a "karmic retribution" type buff that could grant consumables that grant karma, xp, or wxp on kill (perhaps granting multiple consumables for a player kill vs an npc kill), depending on the buff activated -- maybe even a buff that awards something similar to the jade slivers you can get from the jade bot recycler chip that could be used to purchase stuff from a special vendor, like a lesser version of the guild commendations.

[Panda.1967]

25 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

Instead of forcing people to pick a guild to represent for a week, I'd be more on board with something like a "participation" currency that a guild accumulates when players representing that guild earn XP/WXP, that could be used to activate timed buffs for players that are representing that guild. They could be similar to the enhancements that you can purchase from the shop in the tavern area of the guild hall, but more powerful and/or stackable with those enhancements but with a limited duration so that they could be activated before certain content for an added boost. Alternatively could also be interesting to have effects like a "karmic retribution" type buff that could grant consumables that grant karma, xp, or wxp on kill (perhaps granting multiple consumables for a player kill vs an npc kill), depending on the buff activated -- maybe even a buff that awards something similar to the jade slivers you can get from the jade bot recycler chip that could be used to purchase stuff from a special vendor, like a lesser version of the guild commendations.

The guild system used to have this… it was called Influence… and many old guilds still have an amount of influence that they can’t do anything with now.

[azorean.1850]

guilds can only be meaninful if we could only represent 1 guild. end of discussion.

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:46 AM, azorean.1850 said:

guilds can only be meaninful if we could only represent 1 guild. end of discussion.

Incorrect

 

All Guilds I am member of, is for different reasons.

And all the variety that these guilds combined do, is something that NOT A SINGLE Guild out there can offer me as a whole.

If you think there is... then point to me to a guild that:
- I can run WvW with
- I can make griffon and beetle tracks with and race them with
- I can use guild bank to savely store stuff from all my 4 accounts
- I can be (co) owner of
- That are friends I known for over 15 years.
- That do raid training with me

1 guild that meets all the above

Now excuse me, gonna hit Submit Reply and then laugh so hard it's gonna hurt a little.

 

[Doam.8305]

As you brought up Gw1 this guild issue has been a major issue since launch. Guild Wars 2  remains the Guild Wars without Guild Wars in the game. Getting the team together and storming another Guild Hall or defending your own home in brutal combat isn't a thing. WvW isn't the same thing at all just strangers roaming about and avoiding one another. Nothing personal about them storming the same building but in Gw1 that hall was uniquely your home and thus it was personal. WvW is more akin to and an evolution of the Luxon v Kurvick dogs alliance battles from gw1 it is in fact not a replacement for the guild fighting which was simply dropped like so many gw1 features.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Doam.8305
Extra words

[Vayne.8563]

In real life, I belonged to a chess club, and a debate club and I had a group of friends that went to see shows once a month. If any of them disbanded, I'd have lost out on something I enjoyed. Hell even when my pub trivia group dissolved, I felt that loss keenly. The fact that you can have multiple groups of friends, doing different things with each one, doesn't invalidate one group of friends.

In Rift, I had a NA guild and an Australian guild on different characters, because I play at different times. If I lost one of those two guilds, I'd be playing alone during those times and I would be affected by the guild closing. This idea that you can only have one group is ludicrous. Hell I even hold two citizenships.

[Panda.1967]

2 hours ago, Doam.8305 said:

As you brought up Gw1 this guild issue has been a major issue since launch. Guild Wars 2 was a remains the Guild Wars without Guild Wars in the game. Getting the team together and storming another Guild Hall or defending your own home in brutal combat isn't a thing. WvW isn't the same thing at all just strangers roaming about and avoiding one another. Nothing personal about them storming the same building but in Gw1 that hall was uniquely your home and thus it was personal. WvW is more akin to and an evolution of the Luxon v Kurvick dogs alliance battles from gw1 it is in fact not a replacement for the guild fighting which was simply dropped like so many gw1 features.

This guys got the right of it… if you really want more meaningful guilds… we need to have Guild Wars returned to Guild Wars… make our Guild Halls into battlegrounds for Guild Vs Guild like they were in GW1… return the influence system to the game… make guilds have a purpose beyond just a random social group or specialized group finder…

[ShadowKatt.6740]

So I read the title first, and then I read the op, and then I read some comments, and I'll be honest, I was surprised it went the way it did.

I will agree with the title though. Not the OP, that seems dumb, but the title, sure. I've been here since the beginning. Still not part of a guild. Probably won't ever be since, well, what's the point? Guilds in GW2 are more social clubs than anything else. There's not a lot else as far as I can see that goes on. I remember back in GW1 that joining a guild was the way into PvP. Sure, there was the arena, but the real heart and soul of Guild Wars was...uh...it...it was the GUILD Wars. And that was the main draw for joining a good guild. Sure, you could get help with a tough sidequest, but you could do that in LA, or Beacons, or Augery. Need a run from the Frost Gates? Don't really need a guild for that, you can just ask around. So it was really all about the Guild vs Guild wars. And in GW2 that doesn't exist (far as I know. Maybe it came back). So again, what is the use of Guilds? Mostly just social clubs. People to talk to, do activities with. Some of them do raids or strikes but there's also the LFG for that.

So I'm actually in agreement. Guilds could really use a reason to be more meaningful. Offer something that I can't get anywhere else. We don't even get capes anymore....not that anyone would wear them anyway since we have better back pieces anyway. But you get what I'm saying.

However, if anyone knows a good Mesmer-focused guild (Like the Mesmer Collective), I'm looking.

[Passerbye.6291]

Not gonna lie, I cringe every time I see a "99% representation, attend x events per week or kick" guild, but that's the beauty of the current system, if you want to go tryhard with your guild you are allowed to, people like me who don't like the idea just steer clear so you get likeminded people. People who prefer a guild to be structured would probably have similar feelings for my guild btw, we have no rules, everyone gets almost all permissions, everyone's free to mess with the guild hall, we don't police any kind of conversation in guild chat or discord, and it is by far the best guild for me.

The whole, people aren't getting invested in the guild enough argument just sounds very off to me mainly because you treat the guild like a company, meanwhile a guild has little to offer other than a hub for people in it in this game, you max it out and noone needs to contribute anything for the guild, you just do stuff together and have fun, I don't think it would draw more people in to treat it like a job.

While I mostly disagree with your opinion, I hope you get to establish the kind of guild you want, but keep in mind that people consider you a toxic elitist when you ask them to get proper DPS gear (exotic) and literally auto attack with a decent build in group content so that they don't deal 4k damage, which makes me think you have a struggle ahead of you.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Passerbye.6291
Typos

[Astralporing.1957]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:57 PM, Barraind.7324 said:

Every single guild mission is doable with at most 6 people, and many are soloable. 

I know this because ive done almost everything with at most 4 people (theres a whole 1 puzzle that requires 6 people).

You are talking about different people. Someone being able to do all guild missions with at most 6 people does not mean every guild can do it with only so few.

I mean, many raid encounters can be soloed, but regardless of that most people can't even do them with a full squad.

[deathdealer.2197]

Guilds are meaningless due to mega servers aswel. The 5 guilds system makes it even worse.

Ngl I really dislike it, always loved guild identity in mmo's and its just dead here. The insanely high member cap also contributes to this. 

[Linken.6345]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You are talking about different people. Someone being able to do all guild missions with at most 6 people does not mean every guild can do it with only so few.

I mean, many raid encounters can be soloed, but regardless of that most people can't even do them with a full squad.

I only seen sloth soloed and that was when perma stealth thief could hurt him with traps while running around stealthed.

Something they patched out btw.

What other encounters can be soloed?

[Astralporing.1957]

56 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

I only seen sloth soloed and that was when perma stealth thief could hurt him with traps while running around stealthed.

Something they patched out btw.

What other encounters can be soloed?

VG and Cairn for sure (escort too, if you count it). I thought there were few more, but can't find them, so i might have been mistaken. If so, it can't really be called "many encounters"  anymore. Still, considering how many lowmans with a few more players (like 3-4 man lowmans) there are, my general point still stands.

[Linken.6345]

15 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

VG and Cairn for sure (escort too, if you count it). I thought there were few more, but can't find them, so i might have been mistaken. If so, it can't really be called "many encounters"  anymore. Still, considering how many lowmans with a few more players (like 3-4 man lowmans) there are, my general point still stands.

Low man is not solo mate use the correct wording.

Solo is 1 person.

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:35 PM, Riba.3271 said:

What is that the guild allows you to express yourself in? Do they provide you, a regular member, players or resources for something that they also care about? Did they give you a role and reach out to get to know you personally? Because this is all what guilds used to do, each new member was special.

It's a video gaming guild, not a social media group for self-actualization, therapy session or some other such rot. You're speaking in broad generalizations, assuming your experiences are representative of all players, and there's lots more to unpack but frankly I can't be bothered with all that nonsense.

Let people play the game the way they want to, not the way you want them to.

The end.

[Zera.9435]

I can understand where you're coming from.  Guilds don't feel important to me either.  I am currently not in any guild, and my game experience is not really any different than from when I was in guilds. When I was in a guild, the only thing I did with the guild was missions. It feels like guilds really only matter in the context of WvW, which is a game mode I don't particularly enjoy.  Even IF I wanted to play WvW with the guild, I couldn't because I was the only member on NSP server, while everyone else was in another server.  I ONLY ever do it if I need a gift of battle for a legendary weapon, but since I have no plans to make anymore legendary weapons (I made one of every weapon type plus enough to dual wield where possible), I don't see myself ever going back into WvW.  I see no real value for me personally to be in a guild for this game.