orc

[Tanuki.4603]

I really love Guild wars 2. but i think it would gain a lot with introduction of Orc. I think GW2 misses orc, really big beffy race like orc will be perfect for the lore. the game is a little soft somtimes i know we have Norn but they are very like human. I thnk orc will add alot to the game.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I agree Norn are a little boring but I like how this game isn't the overused bog standard, orcs, elves dwarves and such so I don't think they should be added. 

[Morvran.8265]

Iirc Anet almost added orcs when they made GW1, to be an antagonist to humanity.

They decided to do something original instead, creating the Charr aka "demon cats", as early concept art has them labeled. That's why they have horns.

2 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

the game is a little soft somtimes

I agree but that's unfortunately by design, and the complete 180 they did with the Charr for GW2 signals a change in direction for the whole writing. They have no intention of changing that, sadly.

[Ashantara.8731]

5 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

I really love Guild wars 2. but i think it would gain a lot with introduction of Orc. I think GW2 misses orc, really big beffy race like orc will be perfect for the lore.

You mean, like the already existing Jotun? 😄 Or Ettins? 😉

Edited October 7, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Tanuki.4603]

its sad beacuse. :( charer are so cool!! btu they are more like Taurens and like furry race. I want like a beffy masculine race like orc. that is literally what the game is missing, otherwise is perfect. i hope one day they will add orcs, it would be such bad kitten for guild wars 2. or at least orc ears, costume in the gem shop, i would spend my money on that even if it was my weeks salary :D

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

I really love Guild wars 2. but i think it would gain a lot with introduction of Orc. I think GW2 misses orc, really big beffy race like orc will be perfect for the lore. the game is a little soft somtimes i know we have Norn but they are very like human. I thnk orc will add alot to the game.

Charr are orcs.

That was their literal origin. But ANet went "no, orcs versus humans is overdone and too Warcraft. So we'll make them demon cats instead."

http://web.archive.org/web/20110424073731/http://www.arena.net/blog/the-artistic-origin-of-the-charr

Initially we were considering an orc-like race of creatures, but I think everyone soon agreed that we didn’t want to make orcs, ogres, or trolls the main bad guys in our game. They’ve been used in many books, movies, and games, and have been done very well. We needed something different, something that would grab at your gut without needing to be explained.

TL;DR

Orcs are too basic. So we got charr. Charr are orcs, but the Cooler Daniel.

As to this part

Quote

the game is a little soft somtimes

TBH, if GW2 got orcs, they'd be as "soft" as charr are. It's just instead of having smooth fur, Orctlock would have smooth skin.

Quote

i know we have Norn but they are very like human.

Honestly this is a fault of post-core writers. Other than looks, norn are not meant to be human-like at all. But our most iconic norn, Braham, is literally just a big human. He reacted to Eir "abandoning" him like a human (despite what she did was the literal cultural expectancy of norn - we see four communal homesteads where one norn, usually a guy, raises the whole neighborhood's kids as those parents are off doing legend stuff), he reacted to Eir's death like a human (moping and whining for a year when most norn are only sad or annoyed when the dead person's story isn't spread), etc. etc.

And if we're talking about looks... well I've seen multiple people claim Dagda is an orc because of her looks...

[Danikat.8537]

46 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Charr are orcs.

That was their literal origin. But ANet went "no, orcs versus humans is overdone and too Warcraft. So we'll make them demon cats instead."

http://web.archive.org/web/20110424073731/http://www.arena.net/blog/the-artistic-origin-of-the-charr

Initially we were considering an orc-like race of creatures, but I think everyone soon agreed that we didn’t want to make orcs, ogres, or trolls the main bad guys in our game. They’ve been used in many books, movies, and games, and have been done very well. We needed something different, something that would grab at your gut without needing to be explained.

It worked for me. The thing which originally got me interested in GW1 was seeing my brother play what was obviously a fantasy game but with enemies I couldn't immediately identify as any of the usual fantasy races or monsters (I think he was doing Fort Ranik at the time). If they'd been orcs I might never have asked what the game was and would have missed out on starting it.

OP - if you want orcs there's literally dozens of other games to choose from. My advice is to enjoy this one for what it is, especially the ways it's different to what you'll see in other places, even if it doesn't include your personal favourite race.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Danikat.8537

[The Greyhawk.9107]

No.

[Morvran.8265]

9 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

OP - if you want orcs there's literally dozens of other games to choose from. My advice is to enjoy this one for what it is, especially the ways it's different to what you'll see in other places, even if it doesn't include your personal favourite race.

I don't think he wants orcs for the visuals, he wants them for what they represent in a story: battle hardened menacing enemies.

Charr stopped being any of that so now there's a void.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Morvran.8265

[Danikat.8537]

2 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

I don't think he wants orcs for the visuals, he wants them for what they represent in a story: battle hardened menacing enemies.

Charr stopped being any of that so now there's a void.

I think you misunderstood, I'm not saying GW2 has an equivalent of orcs (or any of the other fantasy races) so the OP should be happy with them. I'm saying the fact that it doesn't and has a somewhat unique fantasy world is part of it's appeal and the OP should try to enjoy the novelty, while knowing they can get the familiar fantasy tropes elsewhere.

We're never going to get a playable race that's also vicious enemies, because a key part of the game's design is cooperation between all players. We don't have playable enemy factions or areas only certain characters are allowed to go, everyone has to get along so any mix of characters can go anywhere and do anything they want. The nearest we're going to get is races like the charr and norn where individual or collective combat prowess is an important part of their culture.

[Kalythsu.8350]

6 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

No.

Same. Nope! 😄

[Kalavier.1097]

15 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Honestly this is a fault of post-core writers. Other than looks, norn are not meant to be human-like at all. But our most iconic norn, Braham, is literally just a big human. He reacted to Eir "abandoning" him like a human (despite what she did was the literal cultural expectancy of norn - we see four communal homesteads where one norn, usually a guy, raises the whole neighborhood's kids as those parents are off doing legend stuff), he reacted to Eir's death like a human (moping and whining for a year when most norn are only sad or annoyed when the dead person's story isn't spread), etc. etc.

And if we're talking about looks... well I've seen multiple people claim Dagda is an orc because of her looks...

Norn are not really implied to be communal raising though in their lore. We see shared homesteads and some where a dude takes care of a number of children, but it's not like parents have no role in their kids lives. Braham also is dealing with the fact Eir ditched him as a baby and went off to do her own grand thing and became super-famous, and he's stuck being "Son of Eir" without actually being treated as a son by her.

Braham reacted to her death by going out and smashing stuff, fighting dragon minions, and searching for an artifact that would make his and her legends immortal. I'll remind you that there is a canon short story of a Norn who reveres Leopard who set on an entire arc of revenge and payback against a Norn who cheated at cards, won his father's lodge, then murdered his father. 

Braham was stuck with the fact he watched his newly reconnected mother die right infront of him, and the fact that if they hadn't delayed, MAYBE she would be alive and well. And that the commander's action of delaying the charge may have been the thing that weakened Eir enough to cause her to die.

5 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

I don't think he wants orcs for the visuals, he wants them for what they represent in a story: battle hardened menacing enemies.

Charr stopped being any of that so now there's a void.

Charr are better then that. Battle hardened badasses who are also intelligent. They overcome the shortfalls of almost all Orc-type races by respecting logistics, ensuring that all roles in society are filled so supply chains aren't broken, forges and workshops have resources and engineers. They train and fight enemies but also make allies and can set aside old grudges in the face of a greater enemy.

 

23 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Iirc Anet almost added orcs when they made GW1, to be an antagonist to humanity.

They decided to do something original instead, creating the Charr aka "demon cats", as early concept art has them labeled. That's why they have horns.

I agree but that's unfortunately by design, and the complete 180 they did with the Charr for GW2 signals a change in direction for the whole writing. They have no intention of changing that, sadly.

The only "180" was they stopped being purely an enemy npc race and became a playable race.

 

2 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I think you misunderstood, I'm not saying GW2 has an equivalent of orcs (or any of the other fantasy races) so the OP should be happy with them. I'm saying the fact that it doesn't and has a somewhat unique fantasy world is part of it's appeal and the OP should try to enjoy the novelty, while knowing they can get the familiar fantasy tropes elsewhere.

We're never going to get a playable race that's also vicious enemies, because a key part of the game's design is cooperation between all players. We don't have playable enemy factions or areas only certain characters are allowed to go, everyone has to get along so any mix of characters can go anywhere and do anything they want. The nearest we're going to get is races like the charr and norn where individual or collective combat prowess is an important part of their culture.

That guy also hates GW2 so...

But the second part is quite true. A faction/race war between players is not part of what Gw2 is. Even in Gw1 it only played a minor part in Factions (which the story was also about getting the two groups to STOP fighting each other and to work together against Shiro.

[Rhywolver.8250]

20 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

its sad beacuse. 😞 charer are so cool!! btu they are more like Taurens and like furry race. I want like a beffy masculine race like orc. that is literally what the game is missing, otherwise is perfect. i hope one day they will add orcs, it would be such bad kitten for guild wars 2. or at least orc ears, costume in the gem shop, i would spend my money on that even if it was my weeks salary 😄

There ARE pointy ears and you can absolutely play an Orc with that:

In one of the comments another user even links his Grom cosplay.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

"Please make this mmo like WoW. "

Been a while that we had this.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Norn are not really implied to be communal raising though in their lore. We see shared homesteads and some where a dude takes care of a number of children, but it's not like parents have no role in their kids lives.

I would disagree here. While it isn't told to us, it certainly is shown. When every core norn map includes a shared homestead of indication either overtly or subtly of communal raising of the kids so that parents can go hunt and build legends, it very much is part of the race's lore. Whether the parents have a role in their kids lives isn't clarified - do they visit, are they always away, are they dead? It seems to be a mixed bag.

Point remains though: Braham's situation wasn't unique, and Eir wasn't a bad mom for doing this despite how the story portrays her (and even the PC criticizing Eir for "abandoning" Braham).

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Braham also is dealing with the fact Eir ditched him as a baby and went off to do her own grand thing and became super-famous, and he's stuck being "Son of Eir" without actually being treated as a son by her.

Except he never once criticizes the idea of him being known as Eirsson. So again I disagree with you. Whenever he vents about Eir, it's that she "abandoned her pack" in order to go do other things. He didn't believe her to be that great of a fighter, which is why he only began to see her in a different light once he fought side-by-side with him. It's probably the most norn-like attribute to him, but only because he's a follower of Wolf so the idea of a pack is very precious to him - he gets upset over Rox potentially leaving for the Stone Warband near the end of LWS1 for the same exact reason - belief that Rox is "abandoning her pack" (proto-Dragon's Watch). But at the same time it's very non-norn like for him because he's caring more about Eir (not) being there for him instead of the idea of building legends, honoring her father's dismal fate, and respecting his father's dying wish.

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Braham reacted to her death by going out and smashing stuff, fighting dragon minions, and searching for an artifact that would make his and her legends immortal. I'll remind you that there is a canon short story of a Norn who reveres Leopard who set on an entire arc of revenge and payback against a Norn who cheated at cards, won his father's lodge, then murdered his father.

Braham reacted to her death by avenging her on Mordremoth... then they removed this dialogue from the Heart of Thorns (Dragon's Stand) lobby (and his NPC) completely sometime well after Season 3 ended because it clashed with his angsty "Batman phase" (as the devs once put it on Guild Chat) where he was actively self-destructive and uncaring of his friends. He did indeed react by "going out and smashing stuff, fighting dragon minions, and searching for an artifact that would make his and her legends immortal" (well not sure about the legends part - he never once talks about his / her legend, just "HOW MANY MORE MOTHERS ARE GOING TO DIE COMMANDER!?"), but during that time he was also avoiding his friends, refusing to attend Eir's memorial and honor her legend as literally every other norn did, bashing on the Commander when they finally met up again, and leaving Rox to be frozen without showing an ounce of care for her well being.

He wasn't acting like a norn. He was acting like Hawkeye in Endgame.

|EDIT: To compare to that story from A Spirit of Legend, the protagonist's goal wasn't just to avenge his father, but to clear his father's name as a gambler and loser. It wasn't just about his death, but his story being tarnished. Braham lacks the latter, more important to norn, part.|

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Braham was stuck with the fact he watched his newly reconnected mother die right infront of him, and the fact that if they hadn't delayed, MAYBE she would be alive and well. And that the commander's action of delaying the charge may have been the thing that weakened Eir enough to cause her to die.

Except there was no such action of delay? WTF are you even talking about here. The only "action of delaying the charge" involved with Eir's death is delaying the charge to take down Jormag, which has absolutely nothing to do with HoT or when Eir died but the post-mortem effects.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would disagree here. While it isn't told to us, it certainly is shown. When every core norn map includes a shared homestead of indication either overtly or subtly of communal raising of the kids so that parents can go hunt and build legends, it very much is part of the race's lore. Whether the parents have a role in their kids lives isn't clarified - do they visit, are they always away, are they dead? It seems to be a mixed bag.

Point remains though: Braham's situation wasn't unique, and Eir wasn't a bad mom for doing this despite how the story portrays her (and even the PC criticizing Eir for "abandoning" Braham).

This relies on how you see it though. I don't see "one dude gets left behind to care for everybody while all others adventure" but a shared lodge where multiple families come and go. Bloodlines are cherished and families are together, Norn don't strike me as a "One dude left to care for everybody's kids." Also the thing is those other situations have both parents (if alive) actually involved in their lives. Eir totally disconnected from Braham and was NEVER involved with his life besides being the person who gave birth to him.

There is a very clear distinction here to me between "I travel a lot but am involved in my child's life." and "I totally ditched my baby shortly after birth to go do my own legend, and never visited or was involved in his life at all, and even am implied to have told his dad to prevent him from trying to know me/follow me"

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Except he never once criticizes the idea of him being known as Eirsson. So again I disagree with you. Whenever he vents about Eir, it's that she "abandoned her pack" in order to go do other things. He didn't believe her to be that great of a fighter, which is why he only began to see her in a different light once he fought side-by-side with him. It's probably the most norn-like attribute to him, but only because he's a follower of Wolf so the idea of a pack is very precious to him - he gets upset over Rox potentially leaving for the Stone Warband near the end of LWS1 for the same exact reason - belief that Rox is "abandoning her pack" (proto-Dragon's Watch). But at the same time it's very non-norn like for him because he's caring more about Eir (not) being there for him instead of the idea of building legends, honoring her father's dismal fate, and respecting his father's dying wish.

He doesn't introduce himself and gave little care to the name before Eir died, which was when he fully embraced it and used it to honor her.

I don't recall him ever criticizing her skills in combat, just her in general. When they actually started fighting together and working, he got to know her more and the divide was starting to heal. 

 

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Braham reacted to her death by avenging her on Mordremoth... then they removed this dialogue from the Heart of Thorns (Dragon's Stand) lobby (and his NPC) completely sometime well after Season 3 ended because it clashed with his angsty "Batman phase" (as the devs once put it on Guild Chat) where he was actively self-destructive and uncaring of his friends. He did indeed react by "going out and smashing stuff, fighting dragon minions, and searching for an artifact that would make his and her legends immortal" (well not sure about the legends part - he never once talks about his / her legend, just "HOW MANY MORE MOTHERS ARE GOING TO DIE COMMANDER!?"), but during that time he was also avoiding his friends, refusing to attend Eir's memorial and honor her legend as literally every other norn did, bashing on the Commander when they finally met up again, and leaving Rox to be frozen without showing an ounce of care for her well being.

I love how people keep talking about Braham not acting like a Norn, but when he actually does something incredibly norn-like, they dismiss it. Why did he reject the commander? Because the commander outright told him to stop, to set down a weapon that could harm the Fang of Jormag, and possibly kill Jormag. An action that would make his legend immortal, and since he's using Eir's bow and honoring her life, Eir as well. 

"How many more mothers are going to die" is his grief and agony over Eir's death being lashed out against the Commander, because the Commander was telling him to wait. The last time they did that, Eir died.

We literally have a story where a young Norn lashes out in grief and vengeance and holds onto a grudge after their father dies, and instead of telling their tale, go out to kill the murderer.

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Except there was no such action of delay? WTF are you even talking about here. The only "action of delaying the charge" involved with Eir's death is delaying the charge to take down Jormag, which has absolutely nothing to do with HoT or when Eir died but the post-mortem effects.

Literally in Heart of Thorns. It's LITERALLY THE FIRST ACT. 

Braham Eirsson: Eir and the others are in danger. I'm not going to waste time making introductions. I volunteer to scout ahead.

Canach: Bad idea. We can't risk getting separated. I also prefer to work alone, but we don't always get what we want.

Rytlock Brimstone: I'll go with Eirsson. We'll pick up the trail while the rest of you make contact with these Itzel.

<Character name>: Agreed. Rytlock and Braham, see what you can see and don't go too far without us. The rest of you, with me.

Ibli: Please hurry. My village is in danger.

Braham advocates immediately going after the prisoners including Destiny's Edge and Trahearne. The commander tells him to wait, and goes to gather allies (The Itzel tribe) before going further into the jungle. The Commander lets him and (IIRC) Rytlock scout ahead, but not act. 

After allies are gathered, the Commander goes after the prison camp, and we find Eir, weakened from the time in the cells and lack of food/care/torture etc. Causing her to not be able to fight/run as well, which leads to Faolin stabbing her in an attempt to escape.

This literally is what causes Braham to lash out in season 3. "Braham: With every moment we wait, someone else's mother dies! I won't give Jormag a few days! I won't give Jormag a few minutes!" He's lashing out because he's associated that pause the Commander did with Eir dying. It's not true, but it's what he is doing. Commander is saying "Let's wait, just a few more days for Taimi to finish her experiment." and Braham is hearing this. "Wait Braham, let's allow more people to die, more mothers. Only I am allowed to kill dragons and reap the glory and rewards."

This is also directly after the Commander accidentally causes the Svanir to lash out and ambush Braham, in pursuit of Taimi's research.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I love how people keep talking about Braham not acting like a Norn, but when he actually does something incredibly norn-like, they dismiss it. Why did he reject the commander? Because the commander outright told him to stop, to set down a weapon that could harm the Fang of Jormag, and possibly kill Jormag. An action that would make his legend immortal, and since he's using Eir's bow and honoring her life, Eir as well. 

This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough.

The Charr characters aren't Charr-enough because they have feelings and emotional connections and don't enjoy being victims of an often cruel stratocracy.

The Asura characters aren't Asura-enough also because they have feelings and don't value knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge above all else.

The Norn characters aren't Norn-enough because they too have feelings (I'm starting to see a trend), are affected by people dying in battle, don't inherently love being alone, and don't value their legends over all of their personal relationships. 

The Sylvari...well actually, people are pretty okay about not trying to enforce stereotypes on the Sylvari too harshly, for whatever reason. Probably because they just come across as vegetable-shaped humans. Still happens some of the time, though.

The race you'll never hear about characters not fitting into are the humans, because we as humans ourselves inherently understand that humans don't all fit into one characteristic box. Koss's character, for instance, would fit perfectly into the stereotypical Norn mold, but no one's going to take you seriously if you try to say that "Koss doesn't act human enough, he acts too much like a Norn", because we all understand that his character fits within the vast and near-limitless range of possibilities we associate with the human race.

This policing of racial behavior is tied to players' fixation on otherizing the non-human races, and thus making them smaller and (I would say "dehumanizing", but for lack of a better word) "de-people-lizing" them.

It comes from a failure to divorce the concept of culture from racial identity. These two things are linked, but not monolithic. Just because Norn culture is centered around the glory of dying in battle and the pursuit of one's legend doesn't mean that a Norn who doesn't identify with or fit into that culture is any less of a Norn.

Guild Wars 2 character writing allows all (well, most) higher lifeforms to behave as people, which is a strength of the writing, not a weakness. Because boxes are boring and become predictable and tiresome quite quickly. It makes all of your non-human characters inherently less dynamic and compelling.

Being influenced by your racial origins and culture: good. Being limited only to the stereotypes associated with your racial origins and culture: bad.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough.

The Charr characters aren't Charr-enough because they have feelings and emotional connections and don't enjoy being victims of an often cruel stratocracy.

The Asura characters aren't Asura-enough also because they have feelings and don't value knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge above all else.

The Norn characters aren't Norn-enough because they too have feelings (I'm starting to see a trend), are affected by people dying in battle, don't inherently love being alone, and don't value their legends over all of their personal relationships. 

The Sylvari...well actually, people are pretty okay about not trying to enforce stereotypes on the Sylvari too harshly, for whatever reason. Probably because they just come across as vegetable-shaped humans. Still happens some of the time, though.

The race you'll never hear about characters not fitting into are the humans, because we as humans ourselves inherently understand that humans don't all fit into one characteristic box. Koss's character, for instance, would fit perfectly into the stereotypical Norn mold, but no one's going to take you seriously if you try to say that "Koss doesn't act human enough, he acts too much like a Norn", because we all understand that his character fits within the vast and near-limitless range of possibilities we associate with the human race.

This policing of racial behavior is tied to players' fixation on otherizing the non-human races, and thus making them smaller and (I would say "dehumanizing", but for lack of a better word) "de-people-lizing" them.

It comes from a failure to divorce the concept of culture from racial identity. These two things are linked, but not monolithic. Just because Norn culture is centered around the glory of dying in battle and the pursuit of one's legend doesn't mean that a Norn who doesn't identify with or fit into that culture is any less of a Norn.

Guild Wars 2 character writing allows all (well, most) higher lifeforms to behave as people, which is a strength of the writing, not a weakness. Because boxes are boring and become predictable and tiresome quite quickly. It makes all of your non-human characters inherently less dynamic and compelling.

Being influenced by your racial origins and culture: good. Being limited only to the stereotypes associated with your racial origins and culture: bad.

 

At the same time with Norn we see people complain about them being turned into "drunk party bros" because unlike GW1, we get to SEE the Norn as more then the mystery warriors who want us to beat them up before they'll even talk to us. We see their might in battle, and them going to the party with the same strength and joy. 

Remember when people honestly screamed how Eir wasn't "Norn-like" because she was IN A GUILD? Like not as a leader (which she was) but the mere fact she chose to be part of an ordered group. As if the race of highly individualistic people couldn't... choose to do that.

The "lesser races" (as in the races from the racial sympathy) a more rare to break the molds, but they do at times. The Quaggan in the Pact actively learning to refer to herself by direct name and "I" so she can communicate with those under her command better. The Skritt who are more functional while alone and have a sorta control on their racial ADHD+. Not as much for Hylek, Ogre, or Kodan but there is chances there. Dredge.. kinda do get some variety, but not a huge amount.

 

Fanfiction/formerly RP but this is what I loved doing in GW2, in star trek online and others. Exploring characters characters in ways that are fun and different but lore fitting. Norn, Charr, etc aren't robots, but people. And GW has embraced that. We have cowards and cheaters alongside defenders and researchers.

 

edit: This is also why I instantly loved Uenno in SOTO, because she purposefully jabs at the problems of Rata Sum and went off to do her own thing, even teaching humans which is a very "Not Asura" trait to consider them capable of learning what she taught.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Morvran.8265]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

The Charr characters aren't Charr-enough because they have feelings and emotional connections and don't enjoy being victims of an often cruel stratocracy.

Ah yes, that's definitely what I want to see from the demon cat race whose entire society is defined by war. Playing the victim because society was mean to them so their fee fees got hurt.

And then you wonder why people call GW2 soft.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Haven't Warcraft orcs been just as nuanced as Charr since Warcraft 3 though?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

This relies on how you see it though. I don't see "one dude gets left behind to care for everybody while all others adventure" but a shared lodge where multiple families come and go.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blesi_Gildenhart

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Carman_Fawntracker

There were other NPCs that talked about this, too, though I can't recall where it was exactly (iirc, one in Dredgehaunt and one in Lornar's).

Basically norn culture seems to revolve around one norn / norn family owning a homestead and others living with them, leaving their kids while going on hunts that can last for even years at a time (such as we see with Gaerta, Knut's wife)

. Sigfast takes care of all the kids of the Wolfborn members, for example, while Carman takes care of a bunch of kids from mid-Wayfarer. Sometimes the parents are in the kids' life, sometimes they aren't.

Eir's situation still isn't unique.

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

He doesn't introduce himself and gave little care to the name before Eir died, which was when he fully embraced it and used it to honor her.

I don't recall him ever criticizing her skills in combat, just her in general. When they actually started fighting together and working, he got to know her more and the divide was starting to heal. 

This is objectively false.

Braham: You have to send troops. My friends, my home. We're losing everything. People are dying.

Rytlock Brimstone: Who do you think you are, barging into my office like this?

Braham: My people are hunters. They don't know how to fight an army!

Rytlock Brimstone: True. But that doesn't make me your keeper. You're in the wrong place. Go talk to Knut Whitebear. I'm up to my eyeballs in refugees.

Braham: I'm Eir's son. I heard... I thought you would help.

Rytlock Brimstone: Eir has no son. Get out of my office. Now!

Braham Eirsson. You've probably heard of my mother. She's a "famous hero", a member of Destiny's Edge. Eir Stegalkin. I'm not bragging, mind you. I take after my father.

You said Eir is your mother, right? Can she help?
My mother? Possibly. Can't say I'm looking forward to that conversation, though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/New_Friends,_New_Enemies#Blood_Tribune_Quarters

He actively calls himself Braham Eirsson to the Commander.

Have you talked with Eir lately?
What? Listen, friend...the less you talk about Eir Stegalkin, the better we'll get along. Not right now.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.
Apology accepted. Just stay away from that subject around me, or I'll show you what "kuh-bam" means, up close and personal.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Connecting_the_Pieces

And there were a few others in LWS1. He

As to the criticizing her skills in combat...

Braham Eirsson: Uh. Thanks. That was the first time I've ever seen you fight. I guess the legends are true.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summit_Invitations#At_Barrowstead

Not directly, but this shows "wow I guess they weren't lying about my mother's skill in combat" shows that he thought that the claims were lies before. As you said, when they actually started fighting together - i.e., when he actually saw her skills in combat, the divide started to heal.

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I love how people keep talking about Braham not acting like a Norn, but when he actually does something incredibly norn-like, they dismiss it. Why did he reject the commander? Because the commander outright told him to stop, to set down a weapon that could harm the Fang of Jormag, and possibly kill Jormag. An action that would make his legend immortal, and since he's using Eir's bow and honoring her life, Eir as well. 

This is incredibly discreditous to what the Commander was saying. The Commander wasn't telling Braham to not fight Jormag, the Commander was telling Braham to strategize and consider Taimi's method that may kill Jormag without wasting lives. And Braham dismissed this in the same way he dismissed Rox's wellbeing. When Rox got trapped in ice in that very same instance, Braham didn't care at all.

Braham's actions weren't about his legend or Eir's legend. It was about whining over his mother's death in a self-destructive manner.

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

"How many more mothers are going to die" is his grief and agony over Eir's death being lashed out against the Commander, because the Commander was telling him to wait. The last time they did that, Eir died.

We literally have a story where a young Norn lashes out in grief and vengeance and holds onto a grudge after their father dies, and instead of telling their tale, go out to kill the murderer.

Firstly, my point exactly, it's Braham being a whiny kitten and not reacting the way literally every other norn reacts to families' deaths.

Secondly, the Commander never tells Braham to wait (see next point - that isn't telling Braham not to act).

Thirdly, as I stated before, the "story where a young Norn lashes out in grief and vengeance" isn't just about their father's death.

"I'm sorry, Viskar." The old skaald placed his hand on the boy's shoulder. "There's nothing we can do. Your father lost the house, and everything in it, on his last wager with Grimhilde. She had the right to do whatever she chose with her winnings."

"She cheated. She cheated, but I can't prove it. What of my father, Fiach?" The youth snarled the words, biting off the syllables like a wolf gnawing its leg out of a trap. "Did she have the 'right' to kill him, too?"

Old Fiach sighed. "He was wrong to attack her. There will be no retribution from the Wolfborn of Hoelbrak for Grimhilde's actions. Nor should you seek vengeance upon her, Viskar. You are a new hunter, barely old enough to bear your own blade. Grimhilde is powerful, and legends of her cruelty are told at the moot to frighten children and humans." Shaking his head, the skaald pulled a leopard-fur cloak closer about his weary bones. "Put away your anger, young one. Bury your father. Leave this matter to the crows."

It wasn't just about her killing his father. It was about the fact that Grimhilde cheated and no one was doing anything about it, that his father died unjustly, and he was being remembered as a loser without anyone taking action. Same reasoning, ultimately, for why Gullik attacks Dougal Keane in Ghosts of Ascalon - not because his cousin Gyda died while Dougal lived, but because Dougal never bothered to tell the story of her death, and that was such an insult to the norn's culture and Gyda that it necessitated retribution with an axe.

But with Braham, it isn't about Eir's legend. It was about him losing his mother and being self-destructive and uncaring to his pack - a contradiction to his own character arc in LWS1 and the reason he hated Eir. He became the thing he swore to destroy.

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Literally in Heart of Thorns. It's LITERALLY THE FIRST ACT. 

Braham Eirsson: Eir and the others are in danger. I'm not going to waste time making introductions. I volunteer to scout ahead.

Canach: Bad idea. We can't risk getting separated. I also prefer to work alone, but we don't always get what we want.

Rytlock Brimstone: I'll go with Eirsson. We'll pick up the trail while the rest of you make contact with these Itzel.

<Character name>: Agreed. Rytlock and Braham, see what you can see and don't go too far without us. The rest of you, with me.

Ibli: Please hurry. My village is in danger.

Braham advocates immediately going after the prisoners including Destiny's Edge and Trahearne. The commander tells him to wait, and goes to gather allies (The Itzel tribe) before going further into the jungle. The Commander lets him and (IIRC) Rytlock scout ahead, but not act.

Really? Because not once does the Commander say "not act" there. The Commander says don't go too far, which isn't saying "don't act", the Commander is saying "don't be reckless and get yourself surrounded".

And it is very explicitly NOT saying to wait, because the Commander is actively telling Braham to go find Eir and Destiny's Edge. The Commander is telling Braham to act. Just not to act rashly. And there is an immense difference.

If you go to the beginning of Prisoner of the Dragon instance, the first line by the Commander is:

<Character name>: What happened? I told you two to stay close, not take unnecessary risks.

Braham Eirsson: But we spotted a Mordrem prison caravan. We followed it, and it led us to this camp.

Rytlock Brimstone: No risk, no reward. I made the call, Eirsson backed me up. We thought it was worth the risk. We were right.

<Character name>: Fair enough. Now: how heavily defended is this camp of yours?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prisoners_of_the_Dragon

Which is exactly what that dialogue is saying. Not to sit and wait, but to act without taking unnecessary risks.

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

This literally is what causes Braham to lash out in season 3. "Braham: With every moment we wait, someone else's mother dies! I won't give Jormag a few days! I won't give Jormag a few minutes!" He's lashing out because he's associated that pause the Commander did with Eir dying. It's not true, but it's what he is doing. Commander is saying "Let's wait, just a few more days for Taimi to finish her experiment." and Braham is hearing this. "Wait Braham, let's allow more people to die, more mothers. Only I am allowed to kill dragons and reap the glory and rewards."

This is also directly after the Commander accidentally causes the Svanir to lash out and ambush Braham, in pursuit of Taimi's research.

A reasonable deduction except that the Commander never once told Braham to wait, especially with what you quoted.

The Commander told Braham not to act recklessly. Which he had been doing the entire time. Like in the first instance:

Braham Eirsson: I see a camp...and a camp means survivors. Let's go!

<Character name>: Braham! Get back here!

Braham Eirsson: I'm Eir Stegalkin's son. I want to know where she is.

If sylvari:

<Character name>: Braham! You mustn't run off like that. We're in enemy territory.

If not sylvari:

<Character name>: Braham! You can't just run off like that. We're in enemy territory.

And besides that moment you quoted happened during the story instance before we found Eir, meaning that there was barely any delay. Something you fail to mention, is that the discussion is about "do we try to track ourselves, or do we get locals to help us track them", it's not about waiting, it's about which method would be faster, and they decide to split up and do both, and they end up finding Eir at the same time.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

44 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blesi_Gildenhart

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Carman_Fawntracker

There were other NPCs that talked about this, too, though I can't recall where it was exactly (iirc, one in Dredgehaunt and one in Lornar's).

Basically norn culture seems to revolve around one norn / norn family owning a homestead and others living with them, leaving their kids while going on hunts that can last for even years at a time (such as we see with Gaerta, Knut's wife)

. Sigfast takes care of all the kids of the Wolfborn members, for example, while Carman takes care of a bunch of kids from mid-Wayfarer. Sometimes the parents are in the kids' life, sometimes they aren't.

Eir's situation still isn't unique.

Completely and totally ignoring the key factor.

Those children's parents are still heavily involved in their lives, they are being cared for by another as the others go HUNTING. Knut's wife is off on adventure and it's noted that she has severe wanderlust far beyond her desire to stay in a lodge, which is why she goes on long adventures. Not hunts, adventures. It's also specified that detail with her leaving her sons for knut to raise. The examples you give aren't "Go off and do their adventure for many years at a time" but "They are out hunting to provide for their kids."

Eir straight up abandoned Braham and was never involved in his life at all, unlike Gaeta who does return to Hoelbrek from time to time.

47 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This is objectively false.

Braham: You have to send troops. My friends, my home. We're losing everything. People are dying.

Rytlock Brimstone: Who do you think you are, barging into my office like this?

Braham: My people are hunters. They don't know how to fight an army!

Rytlock Brimstone: True. But that doesn't make me your keeper. You're in the wrong place. Go talk to Knut Whitebear. I'm up to my eyeballs in refugees.

Braham: I'm Eir's son. I heard... I thought you would help.

Rytlock Brimstone: Eir has no son. Get out of my office. Now!

Braham Eirsson. You've probably heard of my mother. She's a "famous hero", a member of Destiny's Edge. Eir Stegalkin. I'm not bragging, mind you. I take after my father.

You said Eir is your mother, right? Can she help?
My mother? Possibly. Can't say I'm looking forward to that conversation, though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/New_Friends,_New_Enemies#Blood_Tribune_Quarters

He actively calls himself Braham Eirsson to the Commander.

Have you talked with Eir lately?
What? Listen, friend...the less you talk about Eir Stegalkin, the better we'll get along. Not right now.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.
Apology accepted. Just stay away from that subject around me, or I'll show you what "kuh-bam" means, up close and personal.

 

Braham is using his mother's name to try to get people to pay attention to him and send help, but the problem is Eir literally has had no part of his life to the point her closest friends have no idea she is actually a mother.

49 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This is incredibly discreditous to what the Commander was saying. The Commander wasn't telling Braham to not fight Jormag, the Commander was telling Braham to strategize and consider Taimi's method that may kill Jormag without wasting lives. And Braham dismissed this in the same way he dismissed Rox's wellbeing. When Rox got trapped in ice in that very same instance, Braham didn't care at all.

Braham's actions weren't about his legend or Eir's legend. It was about whining over his mother's death in a self-destructive manner.

Again, you are completely ignoring the fact Braham ISN'T THINKING CLEARLY.

You are acting as if Braham was perfectly rational and completely calm and collected, when the point of the instance is explicitly and ENTIRELY Braham is not in the right mental or emotional state of mind. You are completely ignoring all cultural context just to hate on Braham, and declare that he isn't "Norn enough". So what, to do something great a Norn must shout out that "I DO THIS FOR MY LEGEND!"? 

Literally the moment I did that episode when it first released, and everybody started whining about it my thoughts were "Why are we complaining that we told an Angry young Norn, holding an incredibly powerful artifact that can break the dragon's tooth, to wait a few days/not do it, and he reacted badly? This is literally the dream of every young Norn in Hoelbrek to see the tooth cracked or be the one to crack it" 

51 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Firstly, my point exactly, it's Braham being a whiny kitten and not reacting the way literally every other norn reacts to families' deaths.

Secondly, the Commander never tells Braham to wait (see next point - that isn't telling Braham not to act).

But with Braham, it isn't about Eir's legend. It was about him losing his mother and being self-destructive and uncaring to his pack - a contradiction to his own character arc in LWS1 and the reason he hated Eir. He became the thing he swore to destroy.

Firstly: Norn are not a singular entity. Also, Braham has been hanging out with the other races a lot, and is still young. You are calling him a whiny kitten because he's dealing with grief, trauma, guilt, regret. He doesn't know Eir, so he can't tell great tales of his time with her. He was at Eir's lodge before the memorial and then left. If I was to guess, it's because he doesn't want to be Eir's Son at her funeral and be listening to everybody tell stories about how great she was and how she touched their lives only to have him be "Oh we... fought Svanir once together and before we could truly connect she was murdered by Mordrem." Also add in that he was alone for what, a year between HoT and season 3? After the grand campaign, everybody went home and left him alone without any support or help.

Second: You are purposefully ignoring how grief can twist what happens. Braham goes "I won't wait, not even a minute" Yes, it's irrational but guess what? Grieving people are that, of all races. He's stuck in what if's and pondering as Mordremoth died and he's left to wander alone. He very clearly is against the idea of waiting because it'll cause more mothers to die. Just like how his friends didn't immediately act to rescue Eir, and she died. It's very explicitly a link between the two events and he is blaming the commander in some way, even though it's not *Literally* true.

Completely ignoring also how Braham becomes fixated on continuing Eir's Legacy and becomes obsessive over the Bow, which it takes losing the thing entirely in IBS for him to truly move on.

59 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Really? Because not once does the Commander say "not act" there. The Commander says don't go too far, which isn't saying "don't act", the Commander is saying "don't be reckless and get yourself surrounded".

And it is very explicitly NOT saying to wait, because the Commander is actively telling Braham to go find Eir and Destiny's Edge. The Commander is telling Braham to act. Just not to act rashly. And there is an immense difference.

If you go to the beginning of Prisoner of the Dragon instance, the first line by the Commander is:

<Character name>: What happened? I told you two to stay close, not take unnecessary risks.

Braham Eirsson: But we spotted a Mordrem prison caravan. We followed it, and it led us to this camp.

Rytlock Brimstone: No risk, no reward. I made the call, Eirsson backed me up. We thought it was worth the risk. We were right.

<Character name>: Fair enough. Now: how heavily defended is this camp of yours?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prisoners_of_the_Dragon

Which is exactly what that dialogue is saying. Not to sit and wait, but to act without taking unnecessary risks.

A reasonable deduction except that the Commander never once told Braham to wait, especially with what you quoted.

The Commander told Braham not to act recklessly. Which he had been doing the entire time. Like in the first instance:

Braham Eirsson: I see a camp...and a camp means survivors. Let's go!

<Character name>: Braham! Get back here!

Braham Eirsson: I'm Eir Stegalkin's son. I want to know where she is.

If sylvari:

<Character name>: Braham! You mustn't run off like that. We're in enemy territory.

If not sylvari:

<Character name>: Braham! You can't just run off like that. We're in enemy territory.

And besides that moment you quoted happened during the story instance before we found Eir, meaning that there was barely any delay. Something you fail to mention, is that the discussion is about "do we try to track ourselves, or do we get locals to help us track them", it's not about waiting, it's about which method would be faster, and they decide to split up and do both, and they end up finding Eir at the same time.

Again completely ignoring how the Commander delayed going, and then Eir died. It was not that much, but do remember that Hot takes place over 43 days in total, so the events of Verdant brink story instances were not instant or all in a single day or so. The two also had advanced far enough that the commander had to work heavily with Hylek scouts to catch up and find them, so it's not like Braham and Rytlock were just down the road and they regrouped within moments.

Again, look at how Commander did not immediately go to rescue Eir, Eir died. When Braham lashed out, what did he lash out against? Commander telling him to wait, to pause for a few days. He lashed out in very literal and very specific phrasing, with MOTHERS DYING and not wanting to wait even MINUTES. That every moment means another mother dies. He is literally and very explicitly linking Eir's death to the delay in some manner, which is fitting with somebody dealing with massive amounts of grief and trauma.

 

 

Overall: Braham's grief can actually be summed in the fact he's young, was just reconnecting with his mother, is trying to process why and if he could've done anything differently...

Oh and most importantly, as you bring up in the story part....

 

Braham was never having to worry about Eir's tales being told, or had to be the one to tell them. He was at the lodge with Knut and the others before Commander arrived, and left to blow off steam by smashing dragon minions. At no point at all was Braham ever having to be the one to tell the tales or honor her. He also quite literally was the poor soul who had to take Eir's body in the jungle and BURN IT THERE instead of returning it to the shiverpeaks or do the typical funeral rites, so we can't forget that Eir's funeral was already vastly abnormal! 

Braham and Eir's situation is not at all typical for Norn society, and they make that very clear. 

[mandala.8507]

7 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Ah yes, that's definitely what I want to see from the demon cat race whose entire society is defined by war. Playing the victim because society was mean to them so their fee fees got hurt.

Yeah, I'm sure Gladium was "playing victim" when the legions abused her so badly that she became deaf and mute.

7 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

And then you wonder why people call GW2 soft.

No one wondered that, bro. You can stop making up reasons to be mad at GW2 anytime you want.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Yeah, I'm sure Gladium was "playing victim" when the legions abused her so badly that she became deaf and mute.

No one wondered that, bro. You can stop making up reasons to be mad at GW2 anytime you want.

Don't forget the Charr lady from core who was so badly traumatized by the flame legion she turned out pretty crazy? I don't think she was mute but was unhinged and quite violent toward all shamans.

[mandala.8507]

38 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Don't forget the Charr lady from core who was so badly traumatized by the flame legion she turned out pretty crazy? I don't think she was mute but was unhinged and quite violent toward all shamans.

Yep, Salina Scorchstep. I talk about her and her warband's story in one of the lost lore posts I did on the subreddit.

She's the opposite of soft, she's just not a one-dimensional flat character. Her "fee fees" are part of what makes her so cool.