Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Xantaria.8726]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Henry.5713 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@belognom.3685 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that.I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons.

But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids?

P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids.

I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours.

That's like asking "why are dungeons 5-man, I want to see the content solo". Because that's was the original idea. The game gives exactly the same requirement for anyone. If you're not doing the content, seek the problem in yourself, not the game.

You need to take into consideration that biggest gate for raiding is its "community" :)

Game puts requirement in terms of content mechanics and timer however it's the "community" that stricts the content beyond proportions.

The community is truely an issue here. Don't forget about those who actually gate themselves from raids by not even trying them once or by completely refusing to listen to the many helpful voices I see on a regular basis. It is indeed so much easier to just blame everyone but yourself for your problems.

I think we can agree both sides of the coin are to blame here.

Hardly imo.

That's not the point. The point is that while some players are indeed lazy and unwilling to cooperate, there are also many raid snobs who create artificial gates for raiding even though game mechanics never require the group to be 100% optimal.

Then just dont join those groups. Make your own LFG. Create your own static. By the amount of players complaining about those who want to runs optimal setups i think i could have create ~20 statics by now. The problem again is those who dont accept the playstyle of others, while demanding to accept their own.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Henry.5713 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@belognom.3685 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that.I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons.

But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids?

P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids.

I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours.

That's like asking "why are dungeons 5-man, I want to see the content solo". Because that's was the original idea. The game gives exactly the same requirement for anyone. If you're not doing the content, seek the problem in yourself, not the game.

You need to take into consideration that biggest gate for raiding is its "community" :)

Game puts requirement in terms of content mechanics and timer however it's the "community" that stricts the content beyond proportions.

The community is truely an issue here. Don't forget about those who actually gate themselves from raids by not even trying them once or by completely refusing to listen to the many helpful voices I see on a regular basis. It is indeed so much easier to just blame everyone but yourself for your problems.

I think we can agree both sides of the coin are to blame here.

Hardly imo.

That's not the point. The point is that while some players are indeed lazy and unwilling to cooperate, there are also many raid snobs who create artificial gates for raiding even though game mechanics never require the group to be 100% optimal.

Then just dont join those groups. Make your own LFG. Create your own static. By the amount of players complaining about those who want to runs optimal setups i think i could have create ~20 statics by now. The problem again is those who dont accept the playstyle of others, while demanding to accept their own.

I think you need to go back to the beginning of this conversation. I'm pointing out the fact that community creates additional gates for raiding, while game mechanics themselves are not as strict and allow many mistakes.

[Xantaria.8726]

My group hardly ever runs optimal, and i know a lot of groups and joined a lot of pugs who dont do it. And if you join one where they want to run optimal and you dont like it, you can always leave. But noone has the right to tell others how they play, that goes to both sides. But almost any complain i read in forums, reddit and ingame is about how others cant join x group cause x group demands y and player z dont want to play y, but g, and had to leave because of that.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@"Xantaria.8726" said:My group hardly ever runs optimal, and i know a lot of groups and joined a lot of pugs who dont do it. And if you join one where they want to run optimal and you dont like it, you can always leave. But noone has the right to tell others how they play, that goes to both sides. But almost any complain i read in forums, reddit and ingame is about how others cant join x group cause x group demands y and player z dont want to play y, but g, and had to leave because of that.

Which only confirms what I said - community creates additional gates to raiding. No matter if it's self oriented "I want to raid as nomad warrior" or "Escort 454654654 LI, ping gear or kick".

[Xantaria.8726]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Xantaria.8726" said:My group hardly ever runs optimal, and i know a lot of groups and joined a lot of pugs who dont do it. And if you join one where they want to run optimal and you dont like it, you can always leave. But noone has the right to tell others how they play, that goes to both sides. But almost any complain i read in forums, reddit and ingame is about how others cant join x group cause x group demands y and player z dont want to play y, but g, and had to leave because of that.

Which only confirms what I said - community creates additional gates to raiding. No matter if it's self oriented "I want to raid as nomad warrior" or "Escort 454654654 LI, ping gear or kick".

This is not a "gate". Then you could say every guild with requieremts, every fractal lfg which states something else then "t4" would be a gate. Its a simple thing, you want to get into raids? Then start with traingsruns or make your own. The community IS making enough so people have a chance to get easier into raids, but they are players themself... they dont have much time either, and they want to do other stuff then playing a trainersimultaor. If you want to get into raids, then get in with traingsruns.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:My group hardly ever runs optimal, and i know a lot of groups and joined a lot of pugs who dont do it. And if you join one where they want to run optimal and you dont like it, you can always leave. But noone has the right to tell others how they play, that goes to both sides. But almost any complain i read in forums, reddit and ingame is about how others cant join x group cause x group demands y and player z dont want to play y, but g, and had to leave because of that.

Which only confirms what I said - community creates additional gates to raiding. No matter if it's self oriented "I want to raid as nomad warrior" or "Escort 454654654 LI, ping gear or kick".

This is not a "gate". Then you could say every guild with requieremts, every fractal lfg which states something else then "t4" would be a gate. Its a simple thing, you want to get into raids? Then start with traingsruns or make your own. The community IS making enough so people have a chance to get easier into raids, but they are players themself... they dont have much time either, and they want to do other stuff then playing a trainersimultaor. If you want to get into raids, then get in with traingsruns.

These are all gates, all created by community, not by game design.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Talindra.4958 said:I don't really understand how the size of wall works.

Everyone needs to be inside the inner circle of the platform thus only little and medium walls will be spawning. Their appearance and pattern is random. If one of your group is standing/running/w/e outside of the inner circle big walls can spawn and the probability of doing so is highly increased but still random (pattern also).So, you don't want to step outside of the inner circle at all. But yeah, the boss is a visual clusterfuck and sometimes very frustrating in pugs due to people not knowing their class/traits and rooting/cc'ing the golems near the group.Since you play druid don't use the wyvern as cc pet because he will cc the golem as well with his auto attacks if you don't have a good pet management. (Mesmer shield 5 also is a terrible thing here as well as bad chrono players using gravity well.)

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:I think you need to go back to the beginning of this conversation. I'm pointing out the fact that community creates additional gates for raiding, while game mechanics themselves are not as strict and allow many mistakes.

The problem is those gates are needed if you want to have a smooth run and oneshot bosses. GW2 mostly is a very casual game and that's absolutely ok but you can't play raids (and T3 & T4 fracs) with that approach without going through suffering a lot. I agree, some of the encounters in raids (MO, Escort) & fractals (Aquatic, Solid Ocean) don't need much of an investment but it's not very common to do those independently. Many groups want to clear complete wings/all T4 dailies. Additionally you don't want to have your group consisting of 9 players with optimal setup/gear/build and let the last player join with whateverest gear and carry him through.Of course some groups are able to on easy as well as on harder bosses but let's face it actually you want a 10 men/women effort and the certainty that you'll kill the boss now matter what.I know a lot of people that got into raids putting the effort into gearing at least one raid ready char, watching and reading guides of encounters and started their way from the bottom although the lfg was already filled with 500+ LI groups. Even this week I had fun to watch a stream of a mediocre player with 31 LIs working his way up and killing more bosses this week than ever before because he joined a lot of groups without hard requirements. You need to have endurance for that but it will pay off. I would say a lot of players would be able to step into raids if they really invest enough to get in.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Vinceman.4572 said:snip

These gates are all created by players, they are not required by the game. Does it allow smoother runs? If you find competent people, yes. But it's not required to complete the content.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:snip

These gates are all created by players, they are not required by the game. Does it allow smoother runs? If you find competent people, yes. But it's not required to complete the content.

Well, of course, you can assemble a group of 10 random players and hit those 10 heads against the wall unless it breaks. That's what people were doing at the beginning of their raid career. They needed to invest a lot more time than you need today to understand and conquer the bosses. I joined many "starter" groups at Cairn for example and it's a pain in the xxx to see players failing and failing again heavily although I was kiting on the outside preventing shards to get through the other 9 players.Now, if you are a player that is able to handle all those mechanics there why would you do this to yourself and consistently join such groups week to week while you can go into other groups oneshot the boss and probably be able to kill MO, Samarog and even Deimos while the other group will most likely not getting Cairn down during the same time span and disbanding without any kill in the end? You have to be very altruistic and masochistic as well. That's not the reason I play games. I play them for fun otherwise I could start to work longer and earn more money for luxury.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:snip

These gates are all created by players, they are not required by the game. Does it allow smoother runs? If you find competent people, yes. But it's not required to complete the content.

Well, of course, you can assemble a group of 10 random players and hit those 10 heads against the wall unless it breaks. That's what people were doing at the beginning of their raid career. They needed to invest a lot more time than you need today to understand and conquer the bosses. I joined many "starter" groups at Cairn for example and it's a pain in the xxx to see players failing and failing again heavily although I was kiting on the outside preventing shards to get through the other 9 players.Now, if you are a player that is able to handle all those mechanics there why would you do this to yourself and consistently join such groups week to week while you can go into other groups oneshot the boss and probably be able to kill MO, Samarog and even Deimos while the other group will most likely not getting Cairn down during the same time span and disbanding without any kill in the end? You have to be very altruistic and masochistic as well. That's not the reason I play games. I play them for fun otherwise I could start to work longer and earn more money for luxury.

Do you agree or not that community enforces additional gates and/or requirements for group content? Because it feels like you're trying to argue facts here. Of course organised, prepared, veteran group can do things faster, better, smoother. However game itself doesn't require this for basic raid completion. No updraft Gorseval is not required to kill the boss, but the community enforces it, reasons are irrelevant.

[Omega.6801]

I'd support an easy mode for raids, for ppl to get to know the mechanics and maybe for the story. But, and this is the important part, easy mode should not give any raid specific rewards, no skins, no shards, no LI, nothing besides the loot you get in the open world as well, i.e. blues and greens and broken fangs. You want to learn not farm right ;) I wonder how many "easy-mode-NAO!!!" ppl are still with me when there are no shinies involved...On the other hand, the damage and all that is part of the mechanics so what's the point in learning how a mechanic works when it doiesn't prepare you for the real thing.

Also, if they added an easy mode to raids, it would easily double the workload it takes to release a raid because they would have to design basically two encounters instead of only one....I'd rather have more content.

[thrag.9740]

@Talindra.4958 said:

@thrag.9740 said:escort (wing 3) <-------- easy mode raidtriomursaat overseergorsevalsamarogcairnkeep constructslothvale guardianescort wing 5statues wing 5xerasabethamatthiasdeimossoulless horordhuum <-------- hard mode raid

Id say for me easy (1) to hard (5)

1) Trio w2, Escort w32) Mursaat, cairns, samarog3) Gorse, KC, sloth, w5 statues4) VG, Sabetha, Deimos, w5 escort.5) Xera, Matthias, w5 SH, Dhuum

Honestly i hate SH.. Usually need at least two or three pull. this week we spent more than 20 mins or half hour on it.. Really frustrating. The only time I like it was at the cm..we done it with more than 3 mins left.. And was only three pulls with that group xD (lucky). I don't really understand how the size of wall works. We (everyone) stack pretty much in mid all the time and our dps was not bad. I don't know .. I don't like it that much. When it was new yeah.. Now just annoying :p and so many effects too happen together maybe because of me lagging. Not saying its a bad map/boss. Just not my fav.

It is funny you mention it, my group also did cm very easily, but has more trouble on regular kills. You know there was a serious reddit thread arguing that cm is easier than regular mode? One of their main points that I remember is that because the arena is smaller, it is easier to knock the flesh golems off the arena.

[Talindra.4958]

@thrag.9740 said:

@Talindra.4958 said:

@thrag.9740 said:escort (wing 3) <-------- easy mode raidtriomursaat overseergorsevalsamarogcairnkeep constructslothvale guardianescort wing 5statues wing 5xerasabethamatthiasdeimossoulless horordhuum <-------- hard mode raid

Id say for me easy (1) to hard (5)

1) Trio w2, Escort w32) Mursaat, cairns, samarog3) Gorse, KC, sloth, w5 statues4) VG, Sabetha, Deimos, w5 escort.5) Xera, Matthias, w5 SH, Dhuum

Honestly i hate SH.. Usually need at least two or three pull. this week we spent more than 20 mins or half hour on it.. Really frustrating. The only time I like it was at the cm..we done it with more than 3 mins left.. And was only three pulls with that group xD (lucky). I don't really understand how the size of wall works. We (everyone) stack pretty much in mid all the time and our dps was not bad. I don't know .. I don't like it that much. When it was new yeah.. Now just annoying :p and so many effects too happen together maybe because of me lagging. Not saying its a bad map/boss. Just not my fav.

It is funny you mention it, my group also did cm very easily, but has more trouble on regular kills. You know there was a serious reddit thread arguing that cm is easier than regular mode? One of their main points that I remember is that because the arena is smaller, it is easier to knock the flesh golems off the arena.

Last week we (same main ppl) did it under two pulls. This week very annoying had a few wipes due to very very inconsistent wall.. I wish we can predict the wall. Wasn't issue with pushing.. our pusher, he is very good. If we use ts probably easier I guess.. our run is voiceless. But everyone too shy to go on voice lol@Vinceman.4572 yes we are in mid or near it most of the time. No one kite out or jump out. All in mid for what reason massive walls pop. I hv some video from this week I think I will review again.. :)Our golem wasn't perfect compared to sc or es. But not bad.. our problem is walls and ppl silly when humongous wall spawn.. like super giant one.. like I don't know #%^&*$ big :p.( ^_____^ )

[Linken.6345]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Henry.5713 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@belognom.3685 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that.I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons.

But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids?

P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids.

I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours.

That's like asking "why are dungeons 5-man, I want to see the content solo". Because that's was the original idea. The game gives exactly the same requirement for anyone. If you're not doing the content, seek the problem in yourself, not the game.

You need to take into consideration that biggest gate for raiding is its "community" :)

Game puts requirement in terms of content mechanics and timer however it's the "community" that stricts the content beyond proportions.

The community is truely an issue here. Don't forget about those who actually gate themselves from raids by not even trying them once or by completely refusing to listen to the many helpful voices I see on a regular basis. It is indeed so much easier to just blame everyone but yourself for your problems.

I think we can agree both sides of the coin are to blame here.

Hardly imo.

That's not the point. The point is that while some players are indeed lazy and unwilling to cooperate, there are also many raid snobs who create artificial gates for raiding even though game mechanics never require the group to be 100% optimal.

Then just dont join those groups. Make your own LFG. Create your own static. By the amount of players complaining about those who want to runs optimal setups i think i could have create ~20 statics by now. The problem again is those who dont accept the playstyle of others, while demanding to accept their own.

I think you need to go back to the beginning of this conversation. I'm pointing out

the fact

that community creates additional gates for raiding, while game mechanics themselves are not as strict and allow many mistakes.

And we all know why people do this, with pick up groups you never know what your going to get so by setting a high standard you create the best circumstances to not have to be in the raids longer then you want to that week.

Cant say many who are used to do 1-2 wings in 1h-2h are willing to do 2 bosses in the same time.

[thrag.9740]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

I'm pointing out the fact that community creates additional gates for raiding, while game mechanics themselves are not as strict and allow many mistakes.That's not really gating raiding, that is a commander gating their own group. Anyone can create a group and do whatever they want. Not fair to say raids are gated, only specific groups.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Talindra.4958 said:@Vinceman.4572 yes we are in mid or near it most of the time. No one kite out or jump out. All in mid for what reason massive walls pop. I hv some video from this week I think I will review again.. :)Our golem wasn't perfect compared to sc or es. But not bad.. our problem is walls and ppl silly when humongous wall spawn.. like super giant one.. like I don't know #%^&*$ big :p.

Nah, it's really the outer circle. One single player stepping a little bit outside is enough to give those bigger walls the possibility to spawn plus a higher chance.

[ArchGenie.1063]

(Comment deleted)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@"ArchGenie.1063" said:The very definition of raiding is high-end content, designed to be the most challenging. The "easy" mode are fractals. This is from another disscusion about the raid difficulty and challenge motes: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/490/raid-difficulty-and-challenge-motes/p1 ; you will find ANET's response there, which I think is good.EDIT: You don't need to sign for discord for raid training, you can pug for trainings or command and start a training.

Worth mentioning they never debunked possibility of easy mode raiding in the future. If people are interested in such mode this is exactly the place where they are supposed to encourage devs to do so.

[Talindra.4958]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Talindra.4958 said:@Vinceman.4572 yes we are in mid or near it most of the time. No one kite out or jump out. All in mid for what reason massive walls pop. I hv some video from this week I think I will review again.. :)Our golem wasn't perfect compared to sc or es. But not bad.. our problem is walls and ppl silly when humongous wall spawn.. like super giant one.. like I don't know #%^&*$ big :p.

Nah, it's really the outer circle. One single player stepping a little bit outside is enough to give those bigger walls the possibility to spawn plus a higher chance.

well i really don't know xD I only have this video... we always run with 1 healer only but this week i had to get someone to roll another healer. Even if we get more dps to reach CC faster, we still get a lot of big huge walls, very inconsistent as to see. just crazy. I feel its something else, not just group dps and position.. feel that its like /gg if it is not a good run. but we did have a few silly mistake.. tank die from walls in a few tries :Phttps://youtu.be/NoJsH2BvJks

[Vinceman.4572]

Our guess is that there is a 50% hp big wall as well and this would make sense according to your video but I will have a look next week on our next kill. Usually we don't get big walls if everyone including pets and spirits is positioning inside the inner circle.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"thrag.9740" said:escort (wing 3) <-------- easy mode raidtriomursaat overseergorsevalsamarogcairnkeep constructslothvale guardianescort wing 5statues wing 5xerasabethamatthiasdeimossoulless horordhuum <-------- hard mode raid

That only works if you don't care about which encounter you're playing. If you want to experience one of the "hard mode" raids but in an easier way, doing one of the "easy" ones you've indicated isn't going to scratch that itch.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

Yeah, it's like how in the military, they don't put you through any "training," they just hand you a gun, put a parachute on you, and kick you out of a plane over a war zone. If it's not "the real thing" it can't possibly have any educational value.

[thrag.9740]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"thrag.9740" said:escort (wing 3) <-------- easy mode raidtriomursaat overseergorsevalsamarogcairnkeep constructslothvale guardianescort wing 5statues wing 5xerasabethamatthiasdeimossoulless horordhuum <-------- hard mode raid

That only works if you don't care about which encounter you're playing. If you want to experience one of the "hard mode" raids but in an easier way, doing one of the "easy" ones you've indicated isn't going to scratch that itch.Yes but unlike fractals which constantly have to be reworked, for example, right now and how the instability system is being reworked (yet again), it isn't a model where countless dev hours are spent reinventing the same wheel.

[Ohoni.6057]

@thrag.9740 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:That only works if you don't care about which encounter you're playing. If you want to experience one of the "hard mode" raids but in an easier way, doing one of the "easy" ones you've indicated isn't going to scratch that itch.Yes but unlike fractals which constantly have to be reworked, for example, right now and how the instability system is being reworked (yet again), it isn't a model where countless dev hours are spent reinventing the same wheel.

Right, which is why I would NOT recommend them making dozens of different modes for each, just one other difficulty, and I would NOT recommend them adding or removing mechanics entirely, just reducing the existing one's impacts so that they are less of a burden. This is an entirely different balance discussion than anything to do with Fractal instabilities.

[Talindra.4958]

@Vinceman.4572 said:Our guess is that there is a 50% hp big wall as well and this would make sense according to your video but I will have a look next week on our next kill. Usually we don't get big walls if everyone including pets and spirits is positioning inside the inner circle.

It's just really annoying .. last week we had no big walls lol two pulls we made it. First one warming up. Second one was a smooth kill. Then this week we keep on getting surprise walls. It really makes it not challenging but annoying. Let see how we go next week. I don't like to complain about it really :p we can still clear it.. just frustrating with silly wipes :p