Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Tyson.5160]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Dude... Seriously?If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

1. it would stop
   some
   of them.
2. it might bring more people to the mode(also, you meand raids instead of dungeons, right?)

Also, notice, that complains about elitism in fractals are a relatively new thing (at least to the degree we're seeing now). They are a result of the game

changing

. Before that, almost all the complains about difficulty of high-tier fractals were targetting very specific mechanics (like, for example, the clown car dredge fight), and not in general (like being too difficult), but for more specific reasons (in te clow car case because it was too long and too boring).

Basically, the complains now are not affected by existence of lower tiers, because they are not exactly complains about t4 difficulty. They are complains about

increase

of t4 difficulty. They are not about existence of elitism in high tier fractals. They are about

increase

of elitism and toxicity in high-tier fractals.

So, apples and oranges.

1. I doubt it. Seriously, anyone that's serious enough about raids will, sooner or later, be doing raids with or without the higher difficulty, especially since some of them are quite easy already. Escort, for example, is easier than any T4 fractal, and is a good way to introduce people to raids, get the masteries, and some of the rewards.
2. See above.
3. Yes, that was a brain fart, i meant raids.

Not really, there's always been complains. The thing is, people decided to hate on raids, and since that's a dead horse if there is one, the same forum warriros started veering towards fractals. The heart of those complaints is always the same. People want to take their open world barely effective builds (seriously you can always spot the guys with fractal/raid gear in World bosses/encounters, because they have 50% of the DPS) to what's supposed to be hard content. And when they fail, or people get tired of carrying those people and kick them, they complain.

Raids is the same thing, and again, while it would be nice to have a "Raids Light", kind of like Dungeon Story Modes, i seriously doubt it would make a dent on people complaining and whatnot, because the true rewards would always be behind the content they can't complete because they can't bring themselves to try and improve their game.

Also i'd argue that the

increase

in toxicity and elitism in fractals, is actually not a thing? If anything atm fractals are way more chill than they were at various periods in the game.

Having the easier mode may help them improve their game though, by introducing them to the mechanics.

I'm not contesting that, or am i opposed to a easy mode, in fact i'm in favour. My only point is that, unlike people have offered, it won't stop people from complaining, just like T1 Fractals don't do the same for Fractals.

Nothing will stop people from complaining because human beings are never satisfied.

[sigur.9453]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Dude... Seriously?If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

1. it would stop
   some
   of them.
2. it might bring more people to the mode(also, you meand raids instead of dungeons, right?)

Also, notice, that complains about elitism in fractals are a relatively new thing (at least to the degree we're seeing now). They are a result of the game

changing

. Before that, almost all the complains about difficulty of high-tier fractals were targetting very specific mechanics (like, for example, the clown car dredge fight), and not in general (like being too difficult), but for more specific reasons (in te clow car case because it was too long and too boring).

Basically, the complains now are not affected by existence of lower tiers, because they are not exactly complains about t4 difficulty. They are complains about

increase

of t4 difficulty. They are not about existence of elitism in high tier fractals. They are about

increase

of elitism and toxicity in high-tier fractals.

So, apples and oranges.

1. I doubt it. Seriously, anyone that's serious enough about raids will, sooner or later, be doing raids with or without the higher difficulty, especially since some of them are quite easy already. Escort, for example, is easier than any T4 fractal, and is a good way to introduce people to raids, get the masteries, and some of the rewards.
2. See above.
3. Yes, that was a brain fart, i meant raids.

Not really, there's always been complains. The thing is, people decided to hate on raids, and since that's a dead horse if there is one, the same forum warriros started veering towards fractals. The heart of those complaints is always the same. People want to take their open world barely effective builds (seriously you can always spot the guys with fractal/raid gear in World bosses/encounters, because they have 50% of the DPS) to what's supposed to be hard content. And when they fail, or people get tired of carrying those people and kick them, they complain.

Raids is the same thing, and again, while it would be nice to have a "Raids Light", kind of like Dungeon Story Modes, i seriously doubt it would make a dent on people complaining and whatnot, because the true rewards would always be behind the content they can't complete because they can't bring themselves to try and improve their game.

Also i'd argue that the

increase

in toxicity and elitism in fractals, is actually not a thing? If anything atm fractals are way more chill than they were at various periods in the game.

Having the easier mode may help them improve their game though, by introducing them to the mechanics.

The mechanics are already there on the "real" encounters. I do not see any use off learning mechanics that would be completly different/more punishing.

Todays raiders managed to learn the fights this way, so should the others, sry.I even like the learning process when a new wing is released. In the end it even feels more rewarding when you managed to get your first kill. (especially with completly strangers you joined on the ts, and suddenly we all love each other)

[Astralporing.1957]

@"sigur.9453" said:Todays raiders managed to learn the fights this way, so should the others, sry.You do realize it sounds very much like "we had it bad, so others should have it bad as well". If we kept to this way of thinking, we'd still be living in caves.

[NotOverlyCheesy.9427]

I don't buy into this easy mode would introduce players to mechanics thing at all. Mechanics are what make fights hard and they are meant to be punishing. If they are not punishing the path of least resistance is to bring healer druid or some other way to cheese non punishing mechanics. We can already see this with VG. They decided for the first boss that missing greens shouldn't be an auto wipe and now everyone just outheals it.

[sigur.9453]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"sigur.9453" said:Todays raiders managed to learn the fights this way, so should the others, sry.You do realize it sounds very much like "we had it bad, so others should have it bad as well". If we kept to this way of thinking, we'd still be living in caves.

No what i mean is, that "we" also managed. so it shoudn´t be a problem with anyone else.Nore did i find it bad in any case. It was "the ultimate challenge" so it shouldn´t be easy,.(maybe its a mindset thing)

I also startet "late" (speaking ppl aready had like 50 LI, and that sounded like 1 million for me that time), but guess what. we formed a static grp with another guild, and SLOWLY start to progress. and frankly speaking, it was a blast. Best moments i had in this game (despite some drama of course)

if people don´t take their faith in their own hand, we´d still be living in caves

[Astralporing.1957]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@sigur.9453 said:Todays raiders managed to learn the fights this way, so should the others, sry.You do realize it sounds very much like "we had it bad, so others should have it bad as well". If we kept to this way of thinking, we'd still be living in caves.

No what i mean is, that "we" also managed. so it shoudn´t be a problem with anyone else.People in caves also "managed". Just saying.

"But we've managed" is not an argument against improvement.

[sigur.9453]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@sigur.9453 said:Todays raiders managed to learn the fights this way, so should the others, sry.You do realize it sounds very much like "we had it bad, so others should have it bad as well". If we kept to this way of thinking, we'd still be living in caves.

No what i mean is, that "we" also managed. so it shoudn´t be a problem with anyone else.People in caves also "managed". Just saying.

"But we've managed" is not an argument against improvement.

Then please add good ideas for improvments. And why and how easy mode could contribute to the game. (in my opinion it simply wont)Then we could argue about that instead of people in caves and their life coices.

[Tyson.5160]

It would be the same as having just T4 Fractals and no tiers under it. The lower tiers teach the encounter and slowly improve difficulty adding new mechanics etc.

[STIHL.2489]

@Tyson.5160 said:I went back and took a boo at the old wow forums before LFR was introduced and it’s a very scary parallel. In certain cases, you couldn’t really tell a difference between the two as the posts were mainly the same between the two games using almost the same arguments.

It's always the same, you could read old EQ forums and see that it is always the same, one groups wants to be included, another groups wants them excluded.

In the end, another game will come along, offer the filthy casuals what they want, and they will jump ship, like the EQ players jumped to WoW, and then onto other games, (I would say the Hard Core players would move on, but they won't, hardly anyone moves to the games of most resistance, Truth is, they will stay here as long as they get to feel special here.) But casuals, once they exhausted their words and pleas to the Developers to have the game include them, they will come to terms that it is time to move on and look for another game .Until that breaking point happens however, things will remain as they are, nothing will change, and thus often the developers will make the mistake of giving in only after it's too late to recover from the damage and the people that left will have moved on, and all their efforts will do is just alienate the players that had felt special here.. and kill the game further.

Not every game.. but I have seen it happen a few times.. such a sad thing to see.

[Lonami.2987]

@Ertrak.9506 said:So I voted for raids being fine as they are but let me expand on this, please:

Ideally yes I would be all for having tiers for every boss, but with accounting for previous statements from anet I don't believe its possible at this point to convince them, or the community for that matter.

I think the best solution at this is to have more bosses like w4 (or easier) and also more bosses like Dhuum.

And just for some credentials, I have 300+ LI with 4/6 pieces of legendary armor (I'm gated by my lack of gold atm).

There are some really good points here, I think. I don't think its even debatable at this point that the raiding community needs more players. But there needs to be a way to get more players into it. I mean, I went thru the process of scarse training raids to eventually get where I am now, but it was a painful process. I don't think other people should have to endure said process I went through. It's demoralizing and I can see how/why it would turn many people away from raiding.

I believe a wider variety of boss difficulties is the best solution, even if its like 1 easy boss (not encounter) per wing with 1 super difficult boss as well.

If that makes sense?

That's only going to annoy veterans. I want to kill hard bosses. I hate things like escort, they feel like filler. If we get difficulty modes, then they can move those easy encounters to easy mode, and buff them in normal mode.

I want the whole wing to be challenging. Your solution (which is the one ArenaNet is using right now, to a point) only makes things worse.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I raid, and for me it’s fine as is. That said, I would also like a ‘normal’ mode for either practicing mechanics without a slipup being a wipe, or experiencing the story with friends who can’t raid high-end.In such a case I wouldn’t be harmed by a lesser mode with lesser rewards. But simultaneously, the ‘normal’ mode should yield less gold, and no LI’s or Magnetite shards since those are truly rewards for the challenge

You could still reward LI, however make it so you get a single LI for a full wing clear, which would make it 5 LI a week, at that rate if someone wanted to grind the easy mode Raids it would take em 7 and a half months. Which may encourage the normal which if you clear each wing now is just over 2 months. You could also provide small magnetite shard rewards as well. Essentially your giving people a taste of the content, which may bring more people into the content.

Giving a single Legendary Insight for a full clear in easy mode sounds pretty good to me. That would encourage new players to keep trying and play the whole wing, rather than just the first bosses. It also gives veterans something in exchange of helping new players, if they haven't killed the final boss yet.

• Easy mode: 1 LI for killing the final boss only, and no unique loot.
• Normal mode: 1 LI for killing each boss, plus unique loot.
• Hard mode: No LIs, and bonus unique loot drops.

Then, like in Fractals of the Mists, killing a boss in a difficulty mode gives you the rewards of the lower modes as well, so killing Sabetha in hard mode would give you 2 LIs, and bonus unique loot.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Teaching players mechanics in an easy mode raids would be FANTASTIC for these reasons:

• They stay long enough to learn mechanics because they aren't getting exhausted and leaving from one discouraging wipe after another.
• Players don't even need to pass the hard gate of finding a raid crew that wants to teach them because raids will be learnable with PUG groups on easy mode.
• All of this in turn brings more players into raids.
• Once players have a general grasp on mechanics when everything is dealing half the damage or w/e, they can choose to graduate to hard raids.
• Now we have many more players who want to raid, who are able to raid and it didn't take ridiculous amounts of painful effort to teach them on hard mode.

win win win win win

Yeah, a whole group of new players would be able to learn raids in easy mode, and then move to normal mode, without needing help from any veterans.

There's literally ZERO negative points about raid difficulty modes.

@Tyson.5160 said:I went back and took a boo at the old wow forums before LFR was introduced and it’s a very scary parallel. In certain cases, you couldn’t really tell a difference between the two as the posts were mainly the same between the two games using almost the same arguments.

ArenaNet should stop being so stubborn and start learning from others' mistakes, before making said mistakes themselves. Literally every MMORPG out there has difficulty modes, because it's been proven again and again that they're good for the game.

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:(I meant to vote for Easy+Hard.)

I freakin' loved LFR in WoW; I was its target audience. I just wanted to see the content and feel like a big kitten hero killing the big bads - once each. I kept going back because the rewards were the best intersection of quality and achievability for me.

I think the SAB model is a good one: Infantile mode where you see all the content and get a small reward that is still enough to keep coming back, Normal mode as-is, and Tribulation mode where everything is turned up to 11 and the phat loot becomes morbidly obese loot - probably exclusive skins and titles rather than just obscene wealth, as I can see the latter causing economy problems.

I think whatever gets more people playing is always good for the game. If players less skilled than you getting boss kills and nonzero loot makes you feel kitten, consider that at least some of them will take an interest in the higher difficulty modes and bolster your ever-shrinking toxic puddle of warm bodies.

I'm not sure why there is so much opposition to the idea of tiered raid content, when there are FOUR tiers of fractals (five if you count CMs) and they are a rip-roaring success.

Additionally, by making raids accessible to more people, they can put more resources in them, giving us more bosses, more raids, and specially, better storylines.

For example, things like the final fight against Balthazar would have felt much more epic, had them been raids. But, since we need every player to experience those easily, they were single player bosses instead. One of the things that make WoW villains really memorable is that they have epic final fights, that take a minimum of cooperative effort.

Scarlet's final fight did this very well, with an epic world boss, where you needed a lot of people to win, but then you had a moderate solo instance where you finished the job, thus guaranteeing everyone finished the story, but the fight itself was the epic event it deserves to be. Mordremoth's fight followed this line too. Their problem is that they're world bosses, and so end up being a zergfest, while a raid boss would be much more satisfying for this kind of final fight.

The more people play raids, the better they will get, for everyone.

@Rhiannon.1726 said:I wouldn’t mind an easy mode, but I don’t see any reason for anet to make one:When it is too easy, people would play it once to see the story and than abandon it like the dungeon story modes. It also couldn’t be used as “training”.When it is just a little bit easier, many people would still complain that it is too difficult. Just look at the complaints about t4 fractals.

For some bosses an “easy mode” for training wouldn’t even make sense:Escort: Make it easier and you’ll get an open world escort event.Cairn: Make it easier and you could just go to the golem with the same result.MO: Make it easier and you could just go to the golem with the same result.Gorseval: There are hardly any mechanics (use Entangle and dodge a few times). You just need decent dps. Make it easier and you could just go to the golem with the same result.

VG and Gorseval are already made like training:For VG you have the three guards that show you the mechanics. In the first phase you don’t have to move, than you have to move a bit and in the last phase you have to move fast.For Gorseval you first have to do just dps, than you have to do dps and destroy some orbs and in the last phase you have additional orange circles (twice) to dodge.

-> You first master the first phase and than you go on. I don’t see a reason to make an easy mode which maybe would be the same as the first phase. You wouldn’t learn anything that you also could learn in the current raid.

BTW Cairn and MO die in 2-5 min depending on the group. When you make it easier (by reducing hp and/or mechanics) you’ll get two boring stationary bosses who’ll die in maybe 1-3 min. Even t1 fractals are more interesting than that.Why would anyone play that more than once and why should Anet invest time and money into it? The pof bounties are more difficult and give better loot.

Read the OP, and you'll see this is another problem, that can't only be solved through difficulty modes.

You see, we have a single mode, but then, some bosses are a joke, because ArenaNet needs new players playing raids too, but since we don't have difficulty modes, they put the easy encounters together with the normal and hard ones.

If we got easy/normal/hard modes, some of the current encounters (like escort) would be buffed in normal mode, and made harder. The point is that in normal mode, everything would have the same difficulty, instead of having a mix of easy and hard bosses.

Personally, I really dislike those super-easy filler encounters, and want to see them gone from normal mode. But that won't happen unless we get easy and hard modes first.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:I voted let it stay as is. Because the problem isn't raids, it's player mentality.Fractals have T1-T4 (so very easy, easy, medium, hard) an

still

people complain about elitism and other similar nonsense. So while i think a "story mode" raid would be an interesting thing, it will never solve anything because there will always be people that want the best rewards at no effort, because they're "entitled".The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content. Well, short of pointing a gun at their heads, if they can't be bothered, the won't be bothered.

People complain about T1 Fractals?

No, they complain they can't do T4. If the objective of having easy mode raids is to get people that can't do "normal" go do easy, it doesn't work. Because Fractals has "easy mode" and people still complain.

I've never seen someone complain they can't do T4. That's why the T1 is there to begin with.

The system used in Fractals of the Mist is perfect, and makes everyone happy. You picked the worst example possible to be against raid difficulty levels.

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I went back and took a boo at the old wow forums before LFR was introduced and it’s a very scary parallel. In certain cases, you couldn’t really tell a difference between the two as the posts were mainly the same between the two games using almost the same arguments.

It's always the same, you could read old EQ forums and see that it is always the same, one groups wants to be included, another groups wants them excluded.

In the end, another game will come along, offer the

filthy casuals

what they want, and they will jump ship, like the EQ players jumped to WoW, and then onto other games, (I would say the

Hard Core

players would move on, but they won't, hardly anyone moves to the games of most resistance, Truth is, they will stay here as long as they get to feel special here.) But casuals, once they exhausted their words and pleas to the Developers to have the game include them, they will come to terms that it is time to move on and look for another game .Until that breaking point happens however, things will remain as they are, nothing will change, and thus often the developers will make the mistake of giving in only after it's too late to recover from the damage and the people that left will have moved on, and all their efforts will do is just alienate the players that had felt special here.. and kill the game further.

Not every game.. but I have seen it happen a few times.. such a sad thing to see.

WildStar, owned by NCSOFT, the same parent company as ArenaNet, is the prime example of this. A new MMORPG, that went to hell because the endgame was too punishing for casuals.

Most of the people against raid difficulty levels are against it because of elitism or spite, never giving real reasons why it would be bad. This kind of toxic attitude kills game modes, and games.

[Grogba.6204]

Raids are not difficult though.

[STIHL.2489]

@Lonami.2987 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I went back and took a boo at the old wow forums before LFR was introduced and it’s a very scary parallel. In certain cases, you couldn’t really tell a difference between the two as the posts were mainly the same between the two games using almost the same arguments.

It's always the same, you could read old EQ forums and see that it is always the same, one groups wants to be included, another groups wants them excluded.

In the end, another game will come along, offer the

filthy casuals

what they want, and they will jump ship, like the EQ players jumped to WoW, and then onto other games, (I would say the

Hard Core

players would move on, but they won't, hardly anyone moves to the games of most resistance, Truth is, they will stay here as long as they get to feel special here.) But casuals, once they exhausted their words and pleas to the Developers to have the game include them, they will come to terms that it is time to move on and look for another game .Until that breaking point happens however, things will remain as they are, nothing will change, and thus often the developers will make the mistake of giving in only after it's too late to recover from the damage and the people that left will have moved on, and all their efforts will do is just alienate the players that had felt special here.. and kill the game further.

Not every game.. but I have seen it happen a few times.. such a sad thing to see.

WildStar, owned by NCSOFT, the same parent company as ArenaNet, is the prime example of this. A new MMORPG, that went to hell because the endgame was too punishing for casuals.

Most of the people against raid difficulty levels are against it because of elitism or spite, never giving real reasons why it would be bad. This kind of toxic attitude kills game modes, and games.

You can't pin the blame on the players, it's only natural that people desire what others can't have. Keep in mind that Anet made this content, they made it the way it is, and they opted to not listen to any requests to change it. Players did not force their hand, the players don't hold them back, this is purely the decision of Anet to make their content this way and keep it this way.

Which is why when another game comes along, players leave the game behind, not the people.

Case in point, We see games like Crowfall and Camelot Unchained are coming out, and suddenly Anet has the resources to devote to WvW to try and fix a lot of long standing problems. Why would they suddenly have these resources to devote to that game mode when before they did not, simple, because now they are at risk of losing that demographic, assuming they have not already lost them, as the decision to quit playing often is made long before the actual act of leaving the game happens.

The same thing happens with PvE, problems that are primarily social unrest will be ignored, until something comes along to force reaction, often either in the form of another competitor game that poses a serious risk to pulling away their players, or simply a steep decline in player participation(read: Lost money).

Truth is, if someone is happy playing their game, another game cannot pull them way, first they need to have some level of "un-happy" with the game, before they look for another game to move on to, as irony would have it, like anything, they will come to the forums or other social media, express their 'un-happy' and hope that it gets fixed,they will often be shouted down by those that like things the way they are, and if ignored by the company themselves, they will find that the best choice is of course to move on, hence why we see the same discussions happen over and over again, because the process is largely the same, and people are same, from game to game to game, people are the same

[nia.4725]

Raids are meant to be difficult and challenging. What's the point in making easy peasy versions of bosses so that people can learn? You are meant to learn the real boss directly, no matter how much time it takes. If you really want to raid you'll do it, it's not difficult nor it takes an insane amount of time. What's the problem with struggling a little until you finally learn and improve enough to get the kill? We all have been there, where raids were difficult and the boss didn't get killed, and it was frustrating wiping and wiping and wiping. But we kept trying, and practising, and we ended up killing it.

I'm an average player, I'd say. I need more time than other people to learn to do something. I'm not especially good at the mechanical side of raids. So every time a new boss is introduced I struggle a little more than everyone else in my squad until I fully understand how it works and what I need to do. Yet here I am, I full clear every week (620LI right now). What I mean to say with this is that raids are perfectly doable, you don't need to be super good at this game. You just need to persevere. Raids aren't for people not willing to practice or improve. But everyone can raid. It's true that in can be difficult to start, with all those LI requirements and such, but it's doable. There are training guilds, lots of guides, you can make your own squad or join pug training groups. A lot of experienced players join them because they want to help. What we don't like, at all, is to join a practice group just because we want to help and then realise than some people have not even made the effort to read a stupid guide about how the boss works.

We even have "easy" raid encounters perfect for new players. W3 Escort, W4 Cairn and Mursaat (not saying W2 Trio since it's locked behind Slothasor) are good to start learning how raids work, so I don't think we need an easy mode. Start with the most forgiving bosses, then to more difficult ones etc etc. This is what everyone does and it works. Of course when you start raiding you need a lot of time practising the boss until you get the kill. That's how it should be, in my opinion. Then you learn, and improve, and a full clear doesn't take more than 3-4 hours.

[Genesis.5169]

No, just like in every mmo the fact that there's something that a player can't any way he want or if it requires a certain skill level it will be hated separating tiers won't fix it.Take FF14 and WoW for example.

FF14 has Extreme modes and Minstrels Ballads, Story Mode (normal mode).WoW has Heroics and Normal modes (I am aware of mythic how ever i quit doing Wrath so i'm only talking about what i know)

In both cases players complain about the harder modes being to hard and they ask for a easier version of the harder difficulty. When the people who play the harder difficulty respond and say yeah you have that its normal mode they cry elitism and throw a temper tantrum you cannot solve community bias you can only play around it or ignore it. That mindset already exists with CMs adding it again will just push us over the edge completely dividing the community even further and trusht me the GW2 community is already heavily divided.

15+ years of MMO exprience its the same everywhere.

[Tuukka.8963]

No raids don't need easy mode, what they are lacking is hard more because cms doesnt serve that purpose. Raids atm are easy, its just players mentality what makes them hard for some people. People are used to casual gameplay which makes raid hard for them. If they would practise how to play and gear their character and learn their rotation and then go practise raid mechanics, it will become easy. People are not willing to put anytime practising and are expecting everything to be facerolled. And raids barely have any mechanics, most are just dps golems.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Tuukka.8963 said:If they would practise how to play and gear their character and learn their rotation and then go practise raid mechanics, it will become easy.That's actually true only for some people, but definitely not for everyone. There are people out there that made and geared up a meta character, have practiced how to play it, learned their rotation, and practiced mechanics of a specific raid boss for months, and it's still not easy for them. And there are people that go in on some new build/class they've never tried before, on a new boss which they know only because they skimmed the movie 15 minutes before, and then end up having no problems and doing top dps on their first attempt, and then complaining how easy and boring it was.

It is a known phenomenon that people tend to both consider their own abilities to be closer to the average than they might really be, and at the same time underestimate the distance between that average and both of the extremes (and/or tend to marginalize those extremes thinking they're far less common than they are). In reality however not everything that's easy for you is easy for others, and not everything that's hard for you is hard for others.

[STIHL.2489]

@Tuukka.8963 said:No raids don't need easy mode, what they are lacking is hard more because cms doesnt serve that purpose. Raids atm are easy, its just players mentality what makes them hard for some people. People are used to casual gameplay which makes raid hard for them. If they would practise how to play and gear their character and learn their rotation and then go practise raid mechanics, it will become easy. People are not willing to put anytime practising and are expecting everything to be facerolled. And raids barely have any mechanics, most are just dps golems.

Preach it..

If only those that were bad at this game got good at this game, the game would be easy for them!

[Tyson.5160]

As much as they say that easy mode, won’t happen, it’s inevitable, might not be tomorrow, next week or even next year, but it will happen.

[Orangensaft.7139]

normal raids are already easy enough i thinkWe have CMs for more difficult challenges (even though some CMs barely make the fight harder like at Cairn - that was a bit lazy one i guess)Raids should not get an easy mode since it just wouldnt be Raid anymore - They are difficult and thats what defines them

But what i can see is a Training Mode - with no rewards - just for training:The only change should be that the damage of enemies and area effects is scaled downbut NOT enemy life and much more important NO changes on any Timers or the speed of Boss actions / how much time players have to evade etc - or those new players would learn it wrong!

That Training Mode would open up perfect possiblity for anyone to get into raids and be able to train without already needing to know boss perfectly - and it will be a less demoralizing learning process where you can feel how you make progress but it wont devalue any existing raid rewards or raid prestige in generalMaybe there could be a liiittle bit of Magnetite Shards only rewards - but killing the training bosses should definitly not unlock the merchant tabs for a Boss -only killing the actual Boss

Training Mode like i am imagining it wouldnt require too much effort from Arenanet i think since they wouldnt have to change anything on the mechanics - just turn down difficulty by reducing damage like i wrote before ... just change the numbers and thats it^^

EDIT: ofc 1 shot mechanics still should 1 shot and not have their dmg taken down or it will again make people learn it the wrong wayonly if anet actually has the time to invest more into it they could turn 1 shot mechanic down and develop some information system that lets players immediatly know they would have been dead in a real raid when being hit by that attack...

And what ReaverKane.7598 said on the next page:Ofc there should be checkpoints so you can directly go to X part of the raid to train it and also reactivate infinitly even if you killed it already

[Tyson.5160]

@Orangensaft.7139 said:normal raids are already easy enough i thinkWe have CMs for more difficult challenges (even though some CMs barely make the fight harder like at Cairn - that was a bit lazy one i guess)Raids should not get an easy mode since it just wouldnt be Raid anymore - They are difficult and thats what defines them

But what i can see is a Training Mode - with no rewards - just for training:The only change should be that the damage of enemies and area effects is scaled downbut NOT enemy life and much more important NO changes on any Timers or the speed of Boss actions / how much time players have to evade etc - or those new players would learn it wrong!

That Training Mode would open up perfect possiblity for anyone to get into raids and be able to train without already needing to know boss perfectly - and it will be a less demoralizing learning process where you can feel how you make progress but it wont devalue any existing raid rewards or raid prestige in generalMaybe there could be a liiittle bit of Magnetite Shards only rewards - but killing the training bosses should definitly not unlock the merchant tabs for a Boss -only killing the actual Boss

Training Mode like i am imagining it wouldnt require too much effort from Arenanet i think since they wouldnt have to change anything on the mechanics - just turn down difficulty by reducing damage like i wrote before ... just change the numbers and thats it^^

This just sounds like an easy mode however named training mode. I do agree with your suggestion though.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Orangensaft.7139 said:normal raids are already easy enough i thinkWe have CMs for more difficult challenges (even though some CMs barely make the fight harder like at Cairn - that was a bit lazy one i guess)Raids should not get an easy mode since it just wouldnt be Raid anymore - They are difficult and thats what defines them

But what i can see is a Training Mode - with no rewards - just for training:The only change should be that the damage of enemies and area effects is scaled downbut NOT enemy life and much more important NO changes on any Timers or the speed of Boss actions / how much time players have to evade etc - or those new players would learn it wrong!

That Training Mode would open up perfect possiblity for anyone to get into raids and be able to train without already needing to know boss perfectly - and it will be a less demoralizing learning process where you can feel how you make progress but it wont devalue any existing raid rewards or raid prestige in generalMaybe there could be a liiittle bit of Magnetite Shards only rewards - but killing the training bosses should definitly not unlock the merchant tabs for a Boss -only killing the actual Boss

Training Mode like i am imagining it wouldnt require too much effort from Arenanet i think since they wouldnt have to change anything on the mechanics - just turn down difficulty by reducing damage like i wrote before ... just change the numbers and thats it^^

What would be the difference to training and dieing in normal mode other than learning to face tank things that can't be face tanked in normal mode? Changing damage also changes the damage during the enrage after the timer, making it pretty useless. You can already outheal many enrage timers.

[Eramonster.2718]

I do like the idea. But I don't think it wil be a thing. Aside from what Miellyn.6847 said, rarely or hardly any players will participate nor experienced players willing to help since there's little to gain. Over time, it will quickly become a dead mode due to lack of participant. Currently, there are training communities, where players do get kills and shards for trying.

[Tyson.5160]

@Eramonster.2718 said:I do like the idea. But I don't think it wil be a thing. Aside from what Miellyn.6847 said, rarely or hardly any players will participate and experienced players willing to help since there's little to gain. Over time, it will quickly become a dead mode due to lack of participant. Currently, there are training communities, where players do get kills and shards for trying.

People said the same thing with story mode dungeons and yet people still run those as well. Same with their 1 fractals.

If the training mode gave a single legendary insight for a full wing clear, people could still progress, it would take them 7.5 months but it could happen.

[Tyson.5160]

@Orangensaft.7139 said:normal raids are already easy enough i thinkWe have CMs for more difficult challenges (even though some CMs barely make the fight harder like at Cairn - that was a bit lazy one i guess)Raids should not get an easy mode since it just wouldnt be Raid anymore - They are difficult and thats what defines them

But what i can see is a Training Mode - with no rewards - just for training:The only change should be that the damage of enemies and area effects is scaled downbut NOT enemy life and much more important NO changes on any Timers or the speed of Boss actions / how much time players have to evade etc - or those new players would learn it wrong!

That Training Mode would open up perfect possiblity for anyone to get into raids and be able to train without already needing to know boss perfectly - and it will be a less demoralizing learning process where you can feel how you make progress but it wont devalue any existing raid rewards or raid prestige in generalMaybe there could be a liiittle bit of Magnetite Shards only rewards - but killing the training bosses should definitly not unlock the merchant tabs for a Boss -only killing the actual Boss

Training Mode like i am imagining it wouldnt require too much effort from Arenanet i think since they wouldnt have to change anything on the mechanics - just turn down difficulty by reducing damage like i wrote before ... just change the numbers and thats it^^

I do like this idea, because it gives the same function as tier 1 and 2 fractals, which are very popular. It allows the player to gain confidence during the encounter, perhaps the training mode would have some of the mechanics more separate so people can learn the encounter with a bit more ease.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I'd say use exact same mechanics, just less damage and less rewards. I'd almost called it: "Training Mode and Normal Mode" rather than easy and hard mode.

Or, let's take a completely different approach to this. Say there was a portal in the golem training room that teleports your team to whatever raid boss they want to practice on. The mode functions exactly as the actual raid boss but there is a control panel option for the commander to be able to turn the damage up or down on the raid boss. Maybe could be some other options to tinker with the battle as well, similar to golem settings. = Training Mode.

Either way, easy or hard mode at actual boss with less rewards or build a straight up training hologram room in Aerodrome. New players need a place to learn mechanics where it is more widely accepted that new players can go in there to learn mechanics without feeling the social stigma of being a new player.