Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Tyson.5160]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I'd say use exact same mechanics, just less damage and less rewards. I'd almost called it: "Training Mode and Normal Mode" rather than easy and hard mode.

Or, let's take a completely different approach to this. Say there was a portal in the golem training room that teleports your team to whatever raid boss they want to practice on. The mode functions exactly as the actual raid boss but there is a control panel option for the commander to be able to turn the damage up or down on the raid boss. Maybe could be some other options to tinker with the battle as well, similar to golem settings. = Training Mode.

Either way, easy or hard mode at actual boss with less rewards or build a straight up training hologram room in Aerodrome. New players need a place to learn mechanics where it is more widely accepted that new players can go in there to learn mechanics without feeling the social stigma of being a new player.

Yeah it would be nice if a player wanted to do some practicing of the mechanics for example Sloth knock down attack, so you could practice the timing etc. Maybe they could keep this function away from the current raid for the first progression week and add it later.

[ReaverKane.7598]

Ok, how about a training mode, an actual training mode where everything is the same (except rewards), but has checkpoints for every phase of a boss.And you can go back a checkpoint and redo a mechanic to get it just right, even if you complete it?That would be a proper training mode, without too much hand-holding by reducing damage.The tech kinda sounds like it exists (since they are talking of adding a checkpoint in Twilight Oasis mid boss-fight), it would take a lot of coding for interfaces and such, but to me that would be the only proper viable training mode.

[Eramonster.2718]

It will give players easy access to some of the raid stuff, skins etc. making it farm-able but it will defeat the purpose as a squad event. With some of the bosses avail to be killed with lower numbers, the training mode will be solo able. Having 10 players for a content that is toned down to dungeon/fractal difficulty is overkill. Its fine making things as simple as possible, but not to lose its meaning by making it simpler.

Raid is as simple as it is. The struggle is mainly on getting 10 players for most players (players with the same mindset).

Players in Gw2 can be polite, kind and helpful, but I can't help to notice there's lack of content in game that can create interactions or teamwork to bond the players. Played lots of MMO (some even in languages I don't understand, don't ask :lol: ) but even if there's a language barrier or a typical grinding MMO I've played, there's a bond. Eg. even Grinding MMOs gives you the feeling of player bonds by having a group of players doing the same thing or gathered in the area grinding, leaving an impression on the players next to you. Guilds plays a role in most MMOs. Here however, I sometimes question why I have these other guilds when I just have time for one (others just sitting there). Just among the things I felt Gw2 greatly lacks, making it difficult for players to form a proper bond for raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Eramonster.2718 said:Players in Gw2 can be polite, kind and helpful, but I can't help to notice there's lack of content in game that can create interactions or teamwork to bond the players.While raids can create that interactions, they are even better at creating opposite results. They can really strain relationships if they're treated too seriously. And treating them too seriously is a norm in a raider community.

[Tyson.5160]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Eramonster.2718 said:Players in Gw2 can be polite, kind and helpful, but I can't help to notice there's lack of content in game that can create interactions or teamwork to bond the players.While raids can create that interactions, they are even better at creating

opposite

results. They can really strain relationships if they're treated too seriously. And treating them too seriously is a norm in a raider community.

Yes it seems more on the negative then positive. Don’t get me wrong, I have had those super powerful positive raid fights, that are like cloud 9.

[Lonami.2987]

@Tyson.5160 said:As much as they say that easy mode, won’t happen, it’s inevitable, might not be tomorrow, next week or even next year, but it will happen.

Exactly.

The real question here, is whether they're going to wake up soon enough and add it before it's too late, or if the game mode will die or get scrapped.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Rhiannon.1726 said:I wouldn’t mind an easy mode, but I don’t see any reason for anet to make one:When it is too easy, people would play it once to see the story and than abandon it like the dungeon story modes. It also couldn’t be used as “training”.

I don't see why playing it just once is a problem worth coming up so often. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the rest of the game. :tongue: While replayability is important to some degree, no raid easy mode is going to be replayed all that often if the main or other rewards arent there. Plus I doubt it has much to do with difficulty regardless. Once people did the easy mode once for training and repeated goes wouldnt give you anything no one would do it no matter the difficulty.

I think an easy mode's popularity would mostly build on what reward is behind it, not on whether its too easy or too hard.

[Blaeys.3102]

It's good to see that, even here on the raiding subforum, there is noticeably greater desire for multiple difficulty modes in raiding - and that the conversation continues as new people realize the potential fun it could offer to the game.

As I've said many times, Anet will only be able to ignore this for so long before realizing the mistakes they made with this game mode. The current model is unsustainable long term, doesn't fit with the rest of the game and, I believe, is actively detrimental to community morale in many situations.

[TexZero.7910]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Rhiannon.1726 said:I wouldn’t mind an easy mode, but I don’t see any reason for anet to make one:When it is too easy, people would play it once to see the story and than abandon it like the dungeon story modes. It also couldn’t be used as “training”.

I don't see why playing it just once is a problem worth coming up so often. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the rest of the game. :tongue: While replayability is important to some degree, no raid easy mode is going to be replayed all that often if the main or other rewards arent there. Plus I doubt it has much to do with difficulty regardless. Once people did the easy mode once for training and repeated goes wouldnt give you anything no one would do it no matter the difficulty.

I think an easy mode's popularity would mostly build on what reward is behind it, not on whether its too easy or too hard.

Because it's not worth the cost of development to waste time on a 1 time mode with minimal rewards.

And lets be honest with this, no matter how easy they make it. You guys will complain about Loot being not good enough to warrant doing it, despite there being an inherent need risk vs reward in games. (See the constant complaints about unrewarding T1-T3 fractals as a prime example)

[Lonami.2987]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Rhiannon.1726 said:I wouldn’t mind an easy mode, but I don’t see any reason for anet to make one:When it is too easy, people would play it once to see the story and than abandon it like the dungeon story modes. It also couldn’t be used as “training”.

I don't see why playing it just once is a problem worth coming up so often. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the rest of the game. :tongue: While replayability is important to some degree, no raid easy mode is going to be replayed all that often if the main or other rewards arent there. Plus I doubt it has much to do with difficulty regardless. Once people did the easy mode once for training and repeated goes wouldnt give you anything no one would do it no matter the difficulty.

I think an easy mode's popularity would mostly build on what reward is behind it, not on whether its too easy or too hard.

Because it's not worth the cost of development to waste time on a 1 time mode with minimal rewards.

And lets be honest with this, no matter how easy they make it. You guys will complain about Loot being not good enough to warrant doing it, despite there being an inherent need risk vs reward in games. (See the constant complaints about unrewarding T1-T3 fractals as a prime example)

So, just like the story instances of each Living World episode then, right?

Also, don't put words on other people's mouths. I don't see anyone complaining they can't play fractals because they're too hard. Everyone can begin at level 1, and learn the basic mechanics while leveling up, and eventually reach the highest levels on their own, with no help. I don't see anyone complaining about level 1 loot either, everyone knows you have to get good to level up and get better reward chances.

Fractals of the Mist have a perfect difficulty progression, and thus, a healthy community.

Raids don't.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Rhiannon.1726 said:I wouldn’t mind an easy mode, but I don’t see any reason for anet to make one:When it is too easy, people would play it once to see the story and than abandon it like the dungeon story modes. It also couldn’t be used as “training”.

I don't see why playing it just once is a problem worth coming up so often. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the rest of the game. :tongue: While replayability is important to some degree, no raid easy mode is going to be replayed all that often if the main or other rewards arent there. Plus I doubt it has much to do with difficulty regardless. Once people did the easy mode once for training and repeated goes wouldnt give you anything no one would do it no matter the difficulty.

I think an easy mode's popularity would mostly build on what reward is behind it, not on whether its too easy or too hard.

Because it's not worth the cost of development to waste time on a 1 time mode with minimal rewards.

And lets be honest with this, no matter how easy they make it. You guys will complain about Loot being not good enough to warrant doing it, despite there being an inherent need risk vs reward in games. (See the constant complaints about unrewarding T1-T3 fractals as a prime example)

It's not worth to make living world story either then. Because be honest, do you think the majority of players really play through that more than a handful of times.

And if we're going by how much people will complain about it that its not worth the effort too hard, not enough rewards, etc.. I say again... It doesnt seem to be a problem for the rest of the game. :P

Please, name one piece of content that hasnt been at least criticized once. If we're going to determine what content ArenaNet should make on whether people will complain about it or not, then that would basically mean no new content.

[Ranger Lus.1465]

from the point of view of a WvW player and university student, it is hard enough for me to find time to run with my guild, it would be nearly impossible for me to find time to raid (at least with the current system) I really want to get into it and have fun with more content other than WvW, I've even considered leaving WvW to start raiding. If there was a way for me to kinda dip my toes in the water before I dropped what I already do to start raiding, I would love it. I think that easier modes should have SIGNIFICANTLY less rewards, so that it is basically a trial to the real content. And it would make it easier for people to learn the mechanics so all the pretentious PvE players have less annoying pugs who don't know what they are doing (I am one of those pugs). I think there needs to be someway for more people to get into raiding, especially in a game that has less PvE content that other MMO's.

[TexZero.7910]

@"Lonami.2987" said:So, just like the story instances of each Living World episode then, right?

Also, don't put words on other people's mouths. I don't see anyone complaining they can't play fractals because they're too hard. Everyone can begin at level 1, and learn the basic mechanics while leveling up, and eventually reach the highest levels on their own, with no help. I don't see anyone complaining about level 1 loot either, everyone knows you have to get good to level up and get better reward chances.

Fractals of the Mist have a perfect difficulty progression, and thus, a healthy community.

Raids don't.

You don't ? Try looking down the page then here - https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/fractals-dungeons-raids

As per the obvious and bad equivocation nice try, not taking that bait. Story is a needed element of RPG's. The core story is available to everyone and there's absolutely nothing you're missing out on when it comes to those who raid vs those who don't story wise.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@TexZero.7910 said:As per the obvious and bad equivocation nice try, not taking that bait. Story is a needed element of RPG's. The core story is available to everyone and there's absolutely nothing you're missing out on when it comes to those who raid vs those who don't story wise.

While your personal opinion might be that it's nothing, there's no way you're going to convince anyone by saying there's nothing to miss out on, while there is something to miss out on. The amount of value that has to any one person is entirely subjective.

[TexZero.7910]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:As per the obvious and bad equivocation nice try, not taking that bait. Story is a needed element of RPG's. The core story is available to everyone and there's absolutely nothing you're missing out on when it comes to those who raid vs those who don't story wise.

While your personal opinion might be that it's nothing, there's no way you're going to convince anyone by saying there's nothing to miss out on, while there is something to miss out on. The amount of value that has to any one person is entirely subjective.

Not a personal opinion the if you have or have not raided matters not to the main story. If player A raided and player B didn't they're still going into ever part of the story with the exact same information.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:As per the obvious and bad equivocation nice try, not taking that bait. Story is a needed element of RPG's. The core story is available to everyone and there's absolutely nothing you're missing out on when it comes to those who raid vs those who don't story wise.

While your personal opinion might be that it's nothing, there's no way you're going to convince anyone by saying there's nothing to miss out on, while there is something to miss out on. The amount of value that has to any one person is entirely subjective.

Not a personal opinion the if you have or have not raided matters not to the main story. If player A raided and player B didn't they're still going into ever part of the story with the exact same information.

The point is, someone who hasnt raided (or seen anything to do with raids) wouldn't know. Not whether thats personal opinion or fact.

[Astralporing.1957]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:As per the obvious and bad equivocation nice try, not taking that bait. Story is a needed element of RPG's. The core story is available to everyone and there's absolutely nothing you're missing out on when it comes to those who raid vs those who don't story wise.

While your personal opinion might be that it's nothing, there's no way you're going to convince anyone by saying there's nothing to miss out on, while there is something to miss out on. The amount of value that has to any one person is entirely subjective.

Not a personal opinion the if you have or have not raided matters not to the main story. If player A raided and player B didn't they're still going into ever part of the story with the exact same information.That actually

is

your personal opinion, not a fact. Many people (me included) are actually in disagreement with you on this one. You just think the things we consider important are irrelevant - which, again, is just your highly subjective opinion, not an objective truth.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ranger Lus.1465 said:from the point of view of a WvW player and university student, it is hard enough for me to find time to run with my guild, it would be nearly impossible for me to find time to raid (at least with the current system) I really want to get into it and have fun with more content other than WvW, I've even considered leaving WvW to start raiding. If there was a way for me to kinda dip my toes in the water before I dropped what I already do to start raiding, I would love it. I think that easier modes should have SIGNIFICANTLY less rewards, so that it is basically a trial to the real content. And it would make it easier for people to learn the mechanics so all the pretentious PvE players have less annoying pugs who don't know what they are doing (I am one of those pugs). I think there needs to be someway for more people to get into raiding, especially in a game that has less PvE content that other MMO's.

You don't learn how to deal with mechanics in an easier mode. You only learn habits that are potentional deathly in normal mode. Seasoned raiders will get even more annoying PUGs who think they know what they are doing but won't work in normal mode.

Most of the PvE content is non-raid content. Between the last two raids were 10 months. If you don't have enough PvE content now, having an easier raid mode won't change that while also delaying the content for people that raid right now.

[Profebolter.4038]

Greetings to all

The raids lately there are enough problems, from my point of view.

And one of the main problems is basically, the entrance to the incursions to the new users. That lately more or more new people are leaving it because it stresses them enough, they are afraid of it, or because they can not join these challenging incursions because they do not meet the requirements of the killproof. And that gives you a bad experience

And if we are all asking for the killproof, new users will not be able to enter. And it leads to that they could not practice, to know the mechanics of the bosses, etc., etc.

Add an easy way, can be a viable solution for the vast majority of new users who seek, practice, know the mechanics or even look more relaxed raid. Even experienced people who want to manage other classes that they do not know, to perfect it, are great.And when people feel safe and have experience they can join the raids of today more easily.

Second point, the community.

And honestly I do not like this at all. (BEWARE, I do not mean everyone in general, but rather I'm talking a lot of people from that community) Think about it well, because we believe or I believe. Because part of the people are acting quite badly and have bad behavior.

• We asked Killprouf, we imply that we are PROs, and in raids they only want PROs. And the rest of the people that are not PROs we expel. And we want to clean everything quickly and without any error.

• Very little patience: a simple error or a rotation failure or even a wrong build that now quite a lot of people carry third-party programs that let you know the build, all the armor and even the skills that you carry, they give you a kick of the raid, without telling you the reason, or anything else. And here most will have noticed, if you fail in a meeting of a boss, people are leaving the raid and you have to organize again looking for it in the LFG, and you can happen more things. (That you leave more users, that there may be fights within the raid, etc, etc.)

• Annoyed, insults, and even threats. When a boss fails, people tend to get upset very easily and to look for a culprit for any reason. (There is not enough CC, the mesmers do not copy the blessings, there are no cures, there is no damage, etc, etc)

I've been to hundreds of raids, with random: And everything has happened to me, what's written above.Once read this: (That surely a lot will not agree what I have written, or others will agree) Do you think we are prepared for a harder difficulty?

Why do you play the raids? To be PRO? To train and have fun with the people you meet? Or Be better than other players?

Right now, they would have to change or improve the systems that are currently in the game. So that the player's experience is even more relaxed, comfortable and pleasant.

If I have offended someone, I apologize. I just want to show my sincere opinions.

Regards

[Ohoni.6057]

I don't think an entire "hard mode" is needed, but if they add an easy mode then they can certainly tune up some of the "easier" existing encounters a bit. But they definitely do need a mode easier than the existing modes. I believe that this should come in the form of not removing any mechanics, but in reducing the penalty for failing them, so that players can attempt the mechanics, and know when they failed them, but that doesn't result in a catastrophic fail state, they can just continue on with the stage. It's a bit like the distinction between say Cuphead, where a wipe forces you to redo the entire stage, and Super Meat Boy, where a wipe just forces you to redo that one immediate challenge (from what I understand of the games).

[STIHL.2489]

Umm.

Raids have been out for like 2 and half years now, and a full on Second Expansion, if Anet was going to do something, they would have done something by now, since nothing has changed as far as raids go, we are left to accept that the current set up is how Anet wants things to be.

Maybe not what some would like, but it is how things are, and it looks like that is not going to change any time soon.

Great Discussion Everyone, good points all around. Pats on the Backs and Cheers, to all who got involved.

[Deeyra.1476]

ok so.. a lot was made for 100% of the community.. how does that justify making stuff for the minority? Why not just keep making stuff or the 100% so we all can enjoy the game?

Next thing, lets remove dmg from all the bosses so we can all get the raid kills. No. Raids were supposed to be end game challenging content. Not something you go in and roll your face on the keyboard. If you dont like it, dont do it. If you want to do it, join a training guild.

triggered

[Henry.5713]

Not everything revolves around bringing in new players. An incentive to stick around after you finished your third set of legendary armor would be nice.Something like new challenges, weekly achievements or anything else they or even the community could think of.On the contrary, the supposed survival of the mode is far more dependant on keeping the actual raiders interested rather than on bringing in new players in droves.Fresh blood is healthy but it needs to have time to mingle with the old. It should not come as a flood and turn the entire place in a mess.Not to mention that many new players do actually come in no matter what people claim here. I know two dozen of them who recently started raiding. Those are just the few who I ended up lending a hand to. There are many more out there. The guys who actually put in the effort to start raiding rather than jumping on the forums to complain about how hard it is to do just that.

[Aldric the Slayer.5784]

This was a very well thought out post. I just want to drop in my two cents. I have played raids and I have gone on tutorial runs of certain bosses, but I'm not confident enough yet to play with people I don't knew and it's very difficult to find tutorial runs. I would love the opportunity to learn the mechanics of the bosses in an easier setting and build up my skill and confidence to be able to confidently go in to normal and hard difficulty raids without having to pay people to take me in with them.

[zealex.9410]

@Aldric the Slayer.5784 said:This was a very well thought out post. I just want to drop in my two cents. I have played raids and I have gone on tutorial runs of certain bosses, but I'm not confident enough yet to play with people I don't knew and it's very difficult to find tutorial runs. I would love the opportunity to learn the mechanics of the bosses in an easier setting and build up my skill and confidence to be able to confidently go in to normal and hard difficulty raids without having to pay people to take me in with them.

Did you look fir groups that focus on training runs such as cross roads?