Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Vinceman.4572]

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

[Exatherion.3075]

I personally did Raids some time ago when they were rather new.I think it's a big obstacle that you need 10 trained fully geared up players. Content should be accessable to everyone, not only to elite groups. It won't crush the Raid system if there is a easy mode for people that just want to see the story and the content. The real loot can stay inside normal modes.

I lead a Guild with 104 people. Nearly none of us are doing raids, because it's hard to gather a group of 10 players with the right profession, skill and the determination.

The problem we face is the following: Some people don't have computers that are good enough, connections aren't stable enough(Some people come from Asia or Africa). Even if all technical criteria would be met, most of my people would've to set up a character for it, then train with the character in training raids....... The latter are all possible but we can't change the first. So it leaves some unable to play the raids.

Why? Because the Raids are so hard, that we cannot go inside a raid with people, where we know the connection will fail it some point and they relog. With more accessable content that's no problem.

The Fractal System for example works well, and created an environment that's friendly for new players. While Raids offer nothing of that. An easy mode would let new people benefit from a better learning curve. The Super Adventure Box is another example of content very well thought through. You offer a difficult mode for everyone, and a easy mode for people that just want to have a look.

I personally support a hardmode, as it offers an additional challenge for everyone willing to put the effort and time in the matter.

I really hope that you can agree with my point of view, that we all would like to play the content. As of now not all players benefit from the Raid releases. I hope that you're willing to change it for us - the players.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:And before you say it - no, an easy mode would

not

affect raiding.

Which you fail to convince me for 67 pages.

That's a given, you have no interest in being convinced.

So why did you make your previous reply then?

If you raise a concern, I give a response that would resolve it. While I have no illusions that

you're

open-minded on this topic, someone else might read the exchange and see the wisdom in it. My goal isn't to convince you, that would accomplish very little. My goal is to convince ANet. If you should happen to stumble into reason at some point, so much the better, but I'm not holding my breath or anything.

TIL a response that simply makes a claim opposite of a raised concern is wise and reasonable.

It can be, depending on the comment it is in response to.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The toxic players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the only version available to anyone, that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty.

Which has nothing to do with you. You, on the other hand, insist that if I want to raid at all, if I want access to Envoy skins at all, then I must play the game the way you enjoy playing it, rather than in a way that I would enjoy playing. Don't worry about the speck in my eye before dealing with the plank in your own.

[STIHL.2489]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

[Tyson.5160]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty.

Which has nothing to do with you. You, on the other hand, insist that if I want to raid at all, if I want access to Envoy skins at all, then I

must

play the game the way

you

enjoy playing it, rather than in a way that

I

would enjoy playing. Don't worry about the speck in my eye before dealing with the plank in your own.

I can’t really argue with quotes from the Good Lord.

[STIHL.2489]

Well some people are unhappy with the image they are painting of themselves.. and.. No one is Surprised.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

[Oogabooga.3812]

The logic of having an easier, training mode is plain. Then when easy mode gets boring, people move to hard mode, knowing most of the mechanics. Fractals is the perfect example of why we have so many playing it at all tiers and why finding a good PUG in t4 is so easy. I've joined t1 fractal groups just for fun and to help newbies along, and they appreciate the help.

If you don't want to play easy mode, then don't. Just like you wouldn't begrudge players from playing only t1 fractals, don't begrudge those who only want easy mode raids.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Oogabooga.3812 said:Fractals is the perfect example of why we have so many playing it at all tiers and why finding a good PUG in t4 is so easy.

This is way too far from reality. Having multiple tiers in Fractals doesn't open up accessibility for the higher tiers.The amount of players running T4 fractals is very similar to those that are Raiding. Those that are running CM Fractals are very similar to the hardest Raid bosses, while the easier bosses have similar runs as regular T4 Fractals. Meaning, it's not like T4 Fractals have an insane population compared to Raids. Raids (excluding selling) have more LFG listings than T4 Fractals. Fractal CMs have more listings (more than regular T4) but those have requirements, requirements you can't get by playing the normal mode (or the easier tiers) making your point moot again.

[nia.4725]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

You said it yesterday. We are ALL broken records. If Ohoni keeps saying the same again and again and again, he receives the same again and again and again.

[Tyson.5160]

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

You said it yesterday. We are ALL broken records. If Ohoni keeps saying the same again and again and again, he receives the same again and again and again.

This will mix things up.... Banana!

[nia.4725]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

You said it yesterday. We are ALL broken records. If Ohoni keeps saying the same again and again and again, he receives the same again and again and again.

This will mix things up.... Banana!

Nevermind my post don't work : D delete pls(?)

[Voltekka.2375]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Oogabooga.3812 said:Fractals is the perfect example of why we have so many playing it at all tiers and why finding a good PUG in t4 is so easy.

This is way too far from reality. Having multiple tiers in Fractals doesn't open up accessibility for the higher tiers.The amount of players running T4 fractals is very similar to those that are Raiding. Those that are running CM Fractals are very similar to the hardest Raid bosses, while the easier bosses have similar runs as regular T4 Fractals. Meaning, it's not like T4 Fractals have an insane population compared to Raids. Raids (excluding selling) have more LFG listings than T4 Fractals. Fractal CMs have more listings (more than regular T4) but those have requirements, requirements you can't get by playing the normal mode (or the easier tiers) making your point moot again.

People still think that they can compare T1 with T4, and the same will apply to raids. Well, it doesnt. A valid comparison would be with 99-100 with 99cm and 100cm. No amount of 99 or 100 clearing will train you for what happens in 99cm and 100 cm.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

Me as well. Easy moneys.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

Deal! Let's make it happen, ANet!

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

Me as well. Easy moneys.

We got two on board, who would be in charge of this one, Chris?

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

Deal! Let's make it happen, ANet!

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

Me as well. Easy moneys.

We got two on board, who would be in charge of this one, Chris?

The money they spend buying kills would be the money we'd win by betting.

Prices go from (around) 20-30 mystic coins the easier bosses to a few hundreds btw. It is not that expensive. But even paying 20 mystic coins for a Cairn kill feels absurd to me, since it doesn't take too much effort nor time to learn and kill that boss.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

raid selling is a crutch, but no this won't work, raiders love prestige and the idea they do content others cant access , they yearn for it.

[Ohoni.6057]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

raid selling is a crutch, but no this won't work, raiders love prestige and the idea they do content others cant access , they yearn for it.

Well, let's try it out and see. Any sort of forward movement is positive at this point.

[Sykper.6583]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would also take this bet, mainly because I'm rather confused by the logic. Is the implication that somehow all the opposition for easy-mode are raid-sellers? By that logic, if instead if Arenanet hypothetically made it so raid sellers were actually a promotion and thus gave groups justification for bringing in new guys at lower reasonable prices thus the amount of easy-mode complaints actually die down?

I see the ban negatively impacting both sides, obviously the raid-sellers would be upset for a multitude of reasons, however I'm certain there would be some community workarounds for the ban. Nothing like adding a black market for raid-selling lol.

The other impact is for the players or raiders stuck in the middle, leaning more towards the easy-mode side. These players likely have a slew of reasons why they can't complete a particular encounter or encounters, from time, difficulty, etc. However what they do have instead is a lot of gold laying around that they don't need for anything else, and Dhuum is within buying distance and is required to kill once to get that ring item. They certainly aren't bad players as they've cleared wings 4, 2 and almost killed Sabetha once, but they just have bad luck with their groups.

I see nothing GOOD about banning raid selling, I simply don't see the logic behind how it would somehow prove everyone against easy-modes was in fact a raid-seller, that's not the scenario playing out here.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

Deal! Let's make it happen, ANet!

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

Me as well. Easy moneys.

We got two on board, who would be in charge of this one, Chris?

A dumb way to spend gold? COUNT ME IN!!!