Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Sykper.6583]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Well of course not, but then once that mode has been added to the game

Full stop. You are making the gamble that this, now 'years' worth of debating is actually going to get you an easy mode. All of this, all of this circling back and forth is not contributing towards you earning your legendary armor.

People who actually do the content earn the rewards, just like in any other mode. You have not made any progression towards earning anything.

[Ohoni.6057]

I've thought of a good analogy for the whole "raiders have earned this stuff" theory.

Think of it like a playground. There are all sorts of things people can do. Teacher sees one student on the monkey bars, and says "cross those monkey bars five times, and I'll give you a piece of candy." He does, and she give him the candy. Then she notices a kid on the swings, "swing back and forth ten times, as high as you can, and I'll give you a piece of candy." He does, and she does. The first kid comes over crying "but I climbed on the monkey bars, which was way harder, but you also gave that other kid some candy!"

The thing is, at no point were either child entitled to get candy for doing the activity they enjoyed, regardless of relative difficulty. The teacher chose to gift them with candy, and by making that choice she in no way formalized that this would forever be the only way to get candy. Giving the kid on the monkey bars candy was fair, and giving the kid on the swings candy was no less fair, and in no way actually impacted that first kid. He got his candy, it was not taken away from him, but he never had the right to determine whether the second kid gets candy.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Well of course not, but then once that mode has been

added

to the game

Full stop. You are making the gamble that this, now 'years' worth of debating is actually going to get you an easy mode. All of this, all of this circling back and forth is not contributing towards you

earning

your legendary armor.

Well, if it doesn't then there's no option available. It may not be working toward earning the armor, but it's laying the groundwork to make that an option. It's like being in a small town with no businesses. You go to a bigger area and court some big company to set up in town so the people can work there. If they don't, then you get nothing. Even if they do, you don't suddenly become rich, you still have to go into work each day and do the job to make money, but without the job being available, there's nothing to do.

People who actually do the content earn the rewards, just like in any other mode. You have not made any progression towards earning anything.

Not yet, and so currently I obviously haven't earned anything, but hopefully, someday, I'll be able to.

[nia.4725]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I've thought of a good analogy for the whole "raiders have earned this stuff" theory.

Think of it like a playground. There are all sorts of things people can do. Teacher sees one student on the monkey bars, and says "cross those monkey bars five times, and I'll give you a piece of candy." He does, and she give him the candy. Then she notices a kid on the swings, "swing back and forth ten times, as high as you can, and I'll give you a piece of candy." He does, and she does. The first kid comes over crying "but I climbed on the monkey bars, which was way harder, but you also gave that other kid some candy!"

The thing is, at no point were either child entitled to get candy for doing the activity they enjoyed, regardless of relative difficulty. The teacher chose to gift them with candy, and by making that choice she in no way formalized that this would forever be the only way to get candy. Giving the kid on the monkey bars candy was fair, and giving the kid on the swings candy was no less fair, and in no way actually impacted that first kid. He got his candy, it was not taken away from him, but he never had the right to determine whether the second kid gets candy.

But anet choosing to tie legendary armor to raids didn't work like that.

It's like the teacher created a whole gymkana. And he said "this is difficult, I should give them the biggest reward because this is the most difficult activity they have here". And so, he decided to give them the best candy.

And you're that other one kid who doesn't like big physical activities but want that specific candy, and so you go to that teacher and tell him "hey, I don't like that physical activity, it is too much. Make an easier gymkana and give that candy you gave the others"

And the others say "what? He wants to get the candy by doing an easier gymkana? That's unfair! If he wants this candy, he should try to do the same effort as us"

And you are like "no! Because I don't like physical activity! Give me that candy for an easier version of that physical activity!"

In fact it reminds me of my school years. I have never liked physical education. But I have always like getting the best grades. However, as I was not willing to do the effort required to get a good mark at PE, I never got it (and I have asthma so physical activity is difficult for me, but honestly, if I really wanted I could have done it; the requirements weren't that high). Should the teacher have given me al alternate way of getting the higher grade?

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Not yet, and so currently I obviously haven't earned anything, but hopefully, someday, I'll be able to.

Didn't you just said that we don't earn anything, we just get gifted?

[tim.4596]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:As I've said, I intend to put in just as much effort in acquiring the armor as any of you have, just in an easy mode rather than in the normal mode. And again, nothing entitles you to be able to determine that the effort you do is somehow "more worthy" than the effort I do. If the developers say that it is a valid amount, then they are right, because they decide who to gift with what.

I think, you're slightly deviating from the context of WHY exactly, you wish to have an easy mode. In my opinion, you should make a new post on the forum.

Yes, yes, and yes. ;)I want easy mode raids that are as casual to hook into as dungeons were back during their prime. Just pop up an LFG, find a group that's running the encounter you want, and stand a very solid change of clearing the encounter as simple as that. No training, no "static group," watching tutorials and the such might be helpful, but wouldn't be strictly necessary, even a handful of players knowing what they're doing should be able to tip the outcome into the "win" column.

I understand a bit better now, why you wish to have an easyMode. I do believe that Raid should be accessible to ALL players, and not only those who had at some point the TIME to join a GUILD and farm 200+ li to now be able to complete Raid Boss. However, I'm still pretty strong on my idea that an easyMode would be wrong for the following reason. Your "No training" idea, is in my opinion a bit unrealistic. Players who do not have a basic understanding of how their class work, should definitely fail miserably. If your entire team is aware of what are their HIGH PRIORITY SKILLS and use the most efficient way to use them during a boss encounter, I assure you that raids are EXTREMELY easy. And would you not wish to read every single one of your skills, and go through some serious theory crafting about what is the best gear to use for that particular rotation, like 90% of the raiding community. You can just go on Snow Crows website, read their guide, get the gear and watch the rotation video on YouTube. Then you just need to practice a bit the rotation on the Golem (30min or more, depending on your class), and there you are, READY TO RAID :)

GW2 on the contrary to MMORPG such as WoW is not bonded by GEAR. And I think this distinction shouldn't be forgotten. WoW, both entry level difficulty "LFG" and "Normal" mode, with the right gear are easy. And it should not be forgotten that in GW2 you have the option to enter a raid with the BEST IN SLOT gear to complete the raid. The difference then lie in your ability to perform a rotation and as in WoW, if you have better gear or better rotation in GW2 the raid just gets easier.

[Teamkiller.4315]

So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:I totally agree with you. it's a bad idea right down to the core. Other people put out better ideas like a Hellfire/Radiant Armor upgrade System to make Legendary Armor.

I still don't have all of those sets, they've greatly decreased the amount of AP content provides over the past few years so it now can take 6-12 months between getting new pieces. Either way, they are particularly ugly sets, I don't really want to see a skin based off of them, unless you could trade them for Envoy skins.

I agree they are not the best looking skins, but they do set the stage as a precursor for what could be a really amazing set of armor.

No doubt.. won't transform, but imagine if the glow gave a trail like effect, or even a painted effect as you moved, ran and fought.

There is a lot of potential.

But I still stand by my feels that Evony is really ugly, and even if they made easy to get.. like a PvP reward track.. I'd only run it by accident.

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Despite having no interest in raids, I was happy to see that content type introduced. Those who wanted them certainly waited long enough for harder, instanced content. The way ANet implemented raids provides those players with their content choice, while leaving GW2 endgame substantially as it was.

Raids filled the hole left in ANet's pre-launch design intent that explorable dungeons would be a raid-equivalent.

Were ANet to funnel more resources into raids, they'd be shifting GW2 toward a more raid-centric game. That, I don't want to see.

It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.

This all started because people could not be happy with the game they had.. and had to try to turn GW2 into some other game.

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Despite having no interest in raids, I was happy to see that content type introduced. Those who wanted them certainly waited long enough for harder, instanced content. The way ANet implemented raids provides those players with their content choice, while leaving GW2 endgame substantially as it was.

Raids filled the hole left in ANet's pre-launch design intent that explorable dungeons would be a raid-equivalent.

Were ANet to funnel more resources into raids, they'd be shifting GW2 toward a more raid-centric game. That, I don't want to see.

It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.

This all started because people could not be happy with the game they had.. and had to try to turn GW2 into some other game.

How is that the fault of the people when the game promised and didn't deliver?

[Spurnshadow.3678]

I haven't done raids for maybe 6 monnths or so. I'd like to get back into them, but I just would rather not deal with the time it takes to try to find a group that would allow my rusty butt in their gorup. Just don't want to deal with the elitists, ARC dps snotbs, kill proof hurdles, blah blah blah. That's the biggest thing that is keeping me from getting back in. I haven't even experienced the new raid that came out a few months ago.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:This isn't even remotely comparable to the effort required to get the Envoy.

That's subjective.

Everything involving effort is subjective, in a sense. It doesn't mean there are no valid comparisons. As someone who has done both, on multiple occasions (3 Envoy sets and 10+ legendary weapons), I have full confidence to make that claim and stand by it.Legendary weapons are much easier to get now than they were in the first two years of the game. As someone that had done both armor and weapons i have full confidence to make the claim that the effort, even if different, is not so incomparable.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I don't think it would be my place to figure out the best "make right" for raiders. I would ask you to come up with one but I can't trust that you'd make a good-fair suggestion and it would likely end up something well beyond what you would settle for. I think it's fair to say that whatever it was, plenty of raiders would be unhappy with it, but that doesn't mean that they were ever entitled to more than what they get.

Fair enough, you're not in a position to judge what would be a fair compensation. But you have the meanings confused in your last sentence. You're the one acting entitled to something. Raiders? We

earned

our stuff.The people that made 2 incinerators "earned" their stuff as well. This didn't prevent anet from changing stuff later on.That's beyond the even more obvious point that you would

not

lose the stuff you "earned".

@"nia.4725" said:But anet choosing to tie legendary armor to raids didn't work like that.They initially intended for legendary armor to be a reward for raiding, and only raiding. Later, they changed their mind, and gave legendary armor to WvW and SPvP (which they did

not

plan originally). Tomorrow they might decide to give legendary armor as a reward for some other content. People that are getting legendary armor sets through current content that offers it have no more "right" to exclysivity of that reward as the raiders had the "right" to be the only ones getting legendary armor originally.

@"nia.4725" said:It's like the teacher created a whole gymkana. And he said "this is difficult, I should give them the biggest reward because this is the most difficult activity they have here". And so, he decided to give them the best candy.It's up to the teacher, of course. But if the teacher decides to change his mind later on and give the best candy to other kids as well, the kids that obtained that reward originally have no real right to complain about it. They were never entitled to that candy in the first place.

@maddoctor.2738 said:How is that the fault of the people when the game promised and didn't deliver?Oh, but did it not deliver by not introducing raids earlier, or by

introducing

them?

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Despite having no interest in raids, I was happy to see that content type introduced. Those who wanted them certainly waited long enough for harder, instanced content. The way ANet implemented raids provides those players with their content choice, while leaving GW2 endgame substantially as it was.

Raids filled the hole left in ANet's pre-launch design intent that explorable dungeons would be a raid-equivalent.

Were ANet to funnel more resources into raids, they'd be shifting GW2 toward a more raid-centric game. That, I don't want to see.

It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.

This all started because people could not be happy with the game they had.. and had to try to turn GW2 into some other game.

How is that the fault of the people when the game promised and didn't deliver?

The game delivered exactly what is promised.. then this small vocal group started to raise a ruckus that this game needed to be like other MMO's with more challenge, as opposed to just going off and playing those other MMO's.. they ruined this one.

Really wish they did what they suggest all the casuals do.. and if they were unhappy they should have left.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"STIHL.2489" said:

The game delivered exactly what is promised.. then this small vocal group started to raise a ruckus that this game needed to be like other MMO's with more challenge, as opposed to just going off and playing those other MMO's.. they ruined this one.

Selective memory, or just making assumptions?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

Eurogamer: The hardest content in the game, then, is the five-man dungeons?

Colin Johanson: Correct. There are two versions of every dungeon: a story mode that you do first... that's pick-up group friendly. It's much easier and fun content that has a lot of cinematics in and tells a fun story. And when you finish the story dungeon, you unlock an explorable dungeon. And the explorable dungeon tells the story of what happens after you completed the story dungeon. That is the most difficult content in our game, our explorable dungeons. They're very, very hard. And they're actually really unique when you look at traditional MMO raids.

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It's all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions - a lot of that is still up in the air and we'll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons - the raids.

ANet did intend to provide content which would be equivalent to raids. They also intended to put skins as rewards in that content. However, feel free to provide quotes wherein ANet stated something like, "We are never going to include any harder PvE content that will be as hard as raids in other games." You're fixating on the word "raids" when what actually matters is that ANet always intended to court those who prefer harder instanced-PvE content. Their first iteration failed to deliver; their second was a partial success, and the third is raids.

[maddoctor.2738]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:

The game delivered exactly what is promised.. then this small vocal group started to raise a ruckus that this game needed to be like other MMO's with more challenge, as opposed to just going off and playing those other MMO's.. they ruined this one.

Selective memory, or just making assumptions?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

Eurogamer: The hardest content in the game, then, is the five-man dungeons?

Colin Johanson: Correct. There are two versions of every dungeon: a story mode that you do first... that's pick-up group friendly. It's much easier and fun content that has a lot of cinematics in and tells a fun story. And when you finish the story dungeon, you unlock an explorable dungeon. And the explorable dungeon tells the story of what happens after you completed the story dungeon. That is the most difficult content in our game, our explorable dungeons. They're very, very hard. And they're actually really unique when you look at traditional MMO raids.

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It's all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions - a lot of that is still up in the air and we'll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons - the raids.

ANet did intend to provide content which would be equivalent to raids. They also intended to put skins as rewards in that content. However, feel free to provide quotes wherein ANet stated something like, "We are never going to include any harder PvE content that will be as hard as raids in other games." You're fixating on the word "raids" when what actually matters is that ANet always intended to court those who prefer harder instanced-PvE content. Their first iteration failed to deliver; their second was a partial success, and the third is raids.

To add to that article, some more:

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.htmlImportant part on our topic:

Surprisingly, for all the times I was having to help revive my experienced teammates in combat, we weren't even playing the hard mode. This was the casual friendly "story-mode," which advances the tale of Destiny's Edge, the motley band of memorable heroes from the book Edge of Destiny. "Our story dungeons are made so that any group of five people that you met on the street can get together and finish," Fairfield said. "It'll still feel challenging, but you won't feel like you're having to play your class at its full potential. These will probably run about 30 to 45 minutes on average." In the case of the Ascalonian Catacombs, you head into the Catacombs to find one of the missing members of Destiny's Edge. Along the way, you'll fight the ghostly King Adelbern and Master Ranger Nente from the first Guild Wars and uncover an even deeper secret.

"The 'explorable' dungeon modes are definitely for the more hardcore crowd," Fairfield said, also noting that the world bosses outside the dungeons serve the same purpose. "These are people who are looking for controlled gameplay, they're looking for dynamic events, and they're looking for a challenge." These explorable dungeons, Fairfield explains, are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs, and they'll last for about an hour and half. There are even major stylistic differences for each dungeon, which should prove appealing for people who like a little roleplay.

bold for emphasis so nobody misses it.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:But anet choosing to tie legendary armor to raids didn't work like that.

Sure it did.

It's like the teacher created a whole gymkana. And he said "this is difficult, I should give them the biggest reward because this is the most difficult activity they have here". And so, he decided to give them the best candy.

That's entirely arbitrary. There is no reason why a kid should get a special reward for doing "the most difficult" activity. The teacher benefits in no way from having kids doing "the most difficult activity," from the teacher's perspective, ALL that matters is that each kid ENJOYS the activity they are going, regardless of which activity that may be.

I don't think you understood the analogy at all. I'm sorry, maybe I should have made it simpler, but I honestly don't know how.

Didn't you just said that we don't earn anything, we just get gifted?

I was talking about the access to the reward. Raiders have not "earned" exclusive access to the rewards. They have not "earned" being allowed to have the Envoy armor, those were gifts granted to them. The point is, just because raiders "did X, Y, and Z" and were granted Envoy armor as a result, does not mean that ONLY players who do X, Y, and Z should be allowed to have it.

@"tim.4596" said:I think, you're slightly deviating from the context of WHY exactly, you wish to have an easy mode. In my opinion, you should make a new post on the forum.

I've been consistent as to why I think an easy mode is necessary. 1. To provide players a more casual access to the story and gameplay of the current raid instances, and 2. to provide players with more casual access to Envoy Armor and other rewards currently gated by raid participation.

However, I'm still pretty strong on my idea that an easyMode would be wrong for the following reason. Your "No training" idea, is in my opinion a bit unrealistic. Players who do not have a basic understanding of how their class work, should definitely fail miserably.

I agree, for the hard mode. The easy mode would be different though, with different expectations of the players. I believe that players who want "training runs," who want that sort of experience, should have that experience as an option, but I don't believe that it fits all players, and I don't believe that all players should have to be fit into it.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for those players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

@STIHL.2489 said:I agree they are not the best looking skins, but they do set the stage as a precursor for what could be a really amazing set of armor.

No doubt.. won't transform, but imagine if the glow gave a trail like effect, or even a painted effect as you moved, ran and fought.

Still less interested than I am in Envoy armor. If they let us pick, then sure, but if we had no choice in which we ended up with, then no thanks.

[Ohoni.6057]

Dupe post, forum was wigging out.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:But anet choosing to tie legendary armor to raids didn't work like that.

Sure it did.

It's like the teacher created a whole gymkana. And he said "this is difficult, I should give them the biggest reward because this is the most difficult activity they have here". And so, he decided to give them the best candy.

That's entirely arbitrary. There is no reason why a kid should get a special reward for doing "the most difficult" activity. The teacher benefits in no way from having kids doing "the most difficult activity," from the teacher's perspective, ALL that matters is that each kid ENJOYS the activity they are going, regardless of which activity that may be.

I don't think you understood the analogy at all. I'm sorry, maybe I should have made it simpler, but I honestly don't know how.

Didn't you just said that we don't earn anything, we just get gifted?

I was talking about the

access

to the reward. Raiders have not "earned"

exclusive

access to the rewards. They have not "earned" being

allowed

to have the Envoy armor, those were gifts granted to them. The point is, just because raiders "did X, Y, and Z" and were granted Envoy armor as a result, does not mean that ONLY players who do X, Y, and Z should be allowed to have it.

@"tim.4596" said:I think, you're slightly deviating from the context of WHY exactly, you wish to have an easy mode. In my opinion, you should make a new post on the forum.

I've been consistent as to why I think an easy mode is necessary. 1. To provide players a more casual access to the story and gameplay of the current raid instances, and 2. to provide players with more casual access to Envoy Armor and other rewards currently gated by raid participation.

However, I'm still pretty strong on my idea that an easyMode would be wrong for the following reason. Your "No training" idea, is in my opinion a bit unrealistic. Players who do not have a basic understanding of how their class work, should definitely fail miserably.

I agree,

for the hard mode.

The easy mode would be different though, with different expectations of the players. I believe that players who want "training runs," who want that sort of experience, should have that experience as an option, but I don't believe that it fits all players, and I don't believe that all players should

have

to be fit into it.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

@STIHL.2489 said:I agree they are not the best looking skins, but they do set the stage as a precursor for what could be a really amazing set of armor.

No doubt.. won't transform, but imagine if the glow gave a trail like effect, or even a painted effect as you moved, ran and fought.

Still less interested than I am in Envoy armor. If they let us pick, then sure, but if we had no choice in which we ended up with, then no thanks.

No, you didn't understand- Maybe you need this quote.

As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria.

Maybe I was the one who should have made it simpler.

[Bladestrom.6425]

lol i need to look at this envoy armor again (i thought it was a bit ugly tbh), people are SO VERY VERY DESPERATE to keep it all for themselves/get it through some other content, it must be a glorious gamechanger!

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:No, you didn't understand- Maybe you need this quote.

As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria.

Maybe I was the one who should have made it simpler.

Yes, I understand how marketing works, that does not mean that things cannot change in the future. As Maddoctor pointed out, when the game launched, explorable dungeons were intended to be as hard as it gets in the game, but later they decided to add even harder content, and some of you seem to like that.

[Sykper.6583]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:lol i need to look at this envoy armor again (i thought it was a bit ugly tbh), people are SO VERY VERY DESPERATE to keep it all for themselves/get it through some other content, it must be a glorious gamechanger!

How is this at all constructive?

[Teamkiller.4315]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for those players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

Okay, so this is pretty simple, you moved the goalposts here (a logical fallacy you've been accusing others of). I listed the positives of the proposal regarding a new set of raids entirely and you said they weren't positives. In actuality they're only not positives for you; hence why the comment "you're not the center of the world". They're positives for both raiders and non-raiders otherwise.

Changing things _for _raiders is just a ???. I mean, like seriously ??? in the context of this conversation.

[Sarrs.4831]

@Sykper.6583 said:How is this at all constructive?

You should probably quote every post in the thread rather than just pick one out

 

god im funny

 

[Ohoni.6057]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

Okay, so this is pretty simple, you moved the goalposts here (a logical fallacy you've been accusing others of). I listed the positives of the proposal regarding a new set of raids entirely and you said they weren't positives. In actuality they're only

not positives

for you; hence why the comment "you're not the center of the world". They're positives for both raiders and non-raiders otherwise.

Changing things _for _raiders is just a ???. I mean, like seriously ??? in the context of this conversation.

We're having a discussion here about whether raids need easy/hard mode options. Citing things that you view as being positive, but which would not be positive for the people interested in an easy mode, is not relevant to this conversation. If it is not addressing the concerns of the audience that is currently unsatisfied, then it is not serving a function.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

Okay, so this is pretty simple, you moved the goalposts here (a logical fallacy you've been accusing others of). I listed the positives of the proposal regarding a new set of raids entirely and you said they weren't positives. In actuality they're only

not positives

for you; hence why the comment "you're not the center of the world". They're positives for both raiders and non-raiders otherwise.

Changing things _for _raiders is just a ???. I mean, like seriously ??? in the context of this conversation.

We're having a discussion here about whether raids need easy/hard mode options. Citing things that

you

view as being positive, but which would

not

be positive for the people interested in an easy mode, is not relevant to this conversation. If it is not addressing the concerns of the audience that is currently unsatisfied, then it is not serving a function.

Specifically we were discussing the merits of a proposal to add easier raids that were also a brand new set of raids. You don't consider anything I listed a positive, but that''s simply because you are advocating for yourself and only yourself. You're not advocating for anyone else, really.

Whether or not it helps raiders is as you probably already know, not the point of contention. So why did you move the goalposts there?