Feanor.2358 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. Actually you're making two generic definitions of the term "casual raids" and assume equality between them when none exists. One of these exists for specific reasons the others have told you. Reason which do not exist in GW2. The other is a hypothetical content which - for some reason - does not exist in GW2 either. I trust you can correlate these two facts on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @Feanor.2358 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. Actually you're making two generic definitions of the term "casual raids" and assume equality between them when none exists. One of these exists for specific reasons the others have told you. Reason which do not exist in GW2. The other is a hypothetical content which - for some reason - does not exist in GW2 either. I trust you can correlate these two facts on your own.Interpret intent behind the argument and you will see where the real argument flaws are. Any instances with more than 5 players must be impossible to do in GW2 it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Feanor.2358 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. Actually you're making two generic definitions of the term "casual raids" and assume equality between them when none exists. One of these exists for specific reasons the others have told you. Reason which do not exist in GW2. The other is a hypothetical content which - for some reason - does not exist in GW2 either. I trust you can correlate these two facts on your own.Interpret intent behind the argument and you will see where the real argument flaws are. Any instances with more than 5 players must be impossible to do in GW2 it seems.Of course not. We have instances with 60+ in the game and they have pretty good success rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Actually it is rather ironic to bring examples from games with gear treadmill as arguments. The only tiered content in GW2 is precisely where there IS a semblance of gear treadmill here, too - the grind for AR. Coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @Feanor.2358 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Feanor.2358 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. Actually you're making two generic definitions of the term "casual raids" and assume equality between them when none exists. One of these exists for specific reasons the others have told you. Reason which do not exist in GW2. The other is a hypothetical content which - for some reason - does not exist in GW2 either. I trust you can correlate these two facts on your own.Interpret intent behind the argument and you will see where the real argument flaws are. Any instances with more than 5 players must be impossible to do in GW2 it seems.Of course not. We have instances with 60+ in the game and they have pretty good success rate.'im alright jack' as long as existing raiders have their little niche 10 man, screw casual players. ' its too difficult to do', 'they are lazy', 'its too expensive', 'ah but other AAA mmorpg are [excuse here]', thinking about other people or selfish intent. quite sad really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?I think you might have missed the point he/she was making.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?They didn't really copy anything. They constructed fractals the way they did to fake a treadmill.And dungeons have not gotten an easy mode altough it has been asked too.In a discussion its a lot better tot adress the point being made instead of trying to dismiss what others are saying. ( I know their are other people who also do this. Just trying to give some friendly advice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Feanor.2358 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Feanor.2358 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. Actually you're making two generic definitions of the term "casual raids" and assume equality between them when none exists. One of these exists for specific reasons the others have told you. Reason which do not exist in GW2. The other is a hypothetical content which - for some reason - does not exist in GW2 either. I trust you can correlate these two facts on your own.Interpret intent behind the argument and you will see where the real argument flaws are. Any instances with more than 5 players must be impossible to do in GW2 it seems.Of course not. We have instances with 60+ in the game and they have pretty good success rate.'im alright jack' as long as existing raiders have their little niche 10 man, screw casual players. ' its too difficult to do', 'they are lazy', 'its too expensive', 'ah but other AAA mmorpg are [excuse here]', thinking about other people or selfish intent. quite sad really. It is pointless. Players who enjoy this type of content already play it. Those who don't, don't. Is that so hard to understand? Adding easy version won't change a thing. If there are no good rewards, they'll remain deserted as the dungeons. If there are good rewards, they'll just become the next farm like SW, Tarir or Istan. Neither changes the experience for the casual players. So in any case it's a wasted dev time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @yann.1946 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?I think you might have missed the point he/she was making.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?They didn't really copy anything. They constructed fractals the way they did to fake a treadmill.And dungeons have not gotten an easy mode altough it has been asked too.In a discussion its a lot better tot adress the point being made instead of trying to dismiss what others are saying. ( I know their are other people who also do this. Just trying to give some friendly advice)thing is, they are not arguing for something, they are throwing excuse after excuse for not making a thing happen purely because some are oh so desperately fighting to block something that would give value to other people, its highly selfish behavior, and its not good for a community based game like GW2. If you distil this down to its purest form and ask the casual community if they would like casual 10 man instances then im sure we all know the answer would be yes. That's the point here. Once you know this then implementation is a different problem, and Anet are smart cookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?You claim that these easier raids are for the enjoyment of casual players, but the truth is, they are also part of the gear progression. So the question was: would those easier instances survive, in those other mmorpgs, if they weren't part of the gear progression? To give a simple GW2 alternative, if Agony started ticking at level 76, then fractals 1 through 50 wouldn't have any reason to exist anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brynioch.1873 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. We don't need to find a hole in your points. You don't have a point to begin with. Those 'millions' of players are forced into raids as they suffer from a content drought every 3 months if they don't participate. Main story progresses in raids. New equipment. Legendary equipment in WoW through questlines requires raids. The majority isn't there because they enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@yann.1946 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?I think you might have missed the point he/she was making.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?They didn't really copy anything. They constructed fractals the way they did to fake a treadmill.And dungeons have not gotten an easy mode altough it has been asked too.In a discussion its a lot better tot adress the point being made instead of trying to dismiss what others are saying. ( I know their are other people who also do this. Just trying to give some friendly advice)thing is, they are not arguing for something, they are throwing excuse after excuse for not making a thing happen purely because some are oh so desperately fighting to block something that would give value to other people, its highly selfish behavior, and its not good for a community based game like GW2. Here, now. We don't have to make excuses about anything. In fact, we can't. The decision was never ours. We're merely pointing out why the requests made are unrealistic and - again, ironically - in many cases extremely selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@yann.1946 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?I think you might have missed the point he/she was making.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?They didn't really copy anything. They constructed fractals the way they did to fake a treadmill.And dungeons have not gotten an easy mode altough it has been asked too.In a discussion its a lot better tot adress the point being made instead of trying to dismiss what others are saying. ( I know their are other people who also do this. Just trying to give some friendly advice)thing is, they are not arguing for something, they are throwing excuse after excuse for not making a thing happen purely because some are oh so desperately fighting to block something that would give value to other people, its highly selfish behavior, and its not good for a community based game like GW2. If you distil this down to its purest form and ask the casual community if they would like casual 10 man instances then im sure we all know the answer would be yes. That's the point here. Once you know this then implementation is a different problem, and Anet are smart cookies.But the thing is they are arguing for something. they believe it might be a bad thing. And that On top of that their have been discussions about hoe big the population would be where was concluded that the population might not be that big.You really shouldn't blame people of malice when they just disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?None of the earlier points are invalidated by later points made, I'm not sure you understand how this discussion has been going the last few pages. One side has been bringing multiple arguments as to why said change might be a bad idea while the other side has been sitting on their one sole argument going:"lalala people like easy raids lalala" without even giving a semblance of thought to what has been said. All points made by myself at least remain valid and actually reinforce later points made.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@yann.1946 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?I think you might have missed the point he/she was making.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?They didn't really copy anything. They constructed fractals the way they did to fake a treadmill.And dungeons have not gotten an easy mode altough it has been asked too.In a discussion its a lot better tot adress the point being made instead of trying to dismiss what others are saying. ( I know their are other people who also do this. Just trying to give some friendly advice)thing is, they are not arguing for something, they are throwing excuse after excuse for not making a thing happen purely because some are oh so desperately fighting to block something that would give value to other people, its highly selfish behavior, and its not good for a community based game like GW2. If you distil this down to its purest form and ask the casual community if they would like casual 10 man instances then im sure we all know the answer would be yes. That's the point here. Once you know this then implementation is a different problem, and Anet are smart cookies.When pointing a finger at someone else you are pointing with 4 back at yourself.Don't accuse others of malice simply because they are disagreeing. It shows very clearly where your state of thought is coming from.If you asked the casual community if they wanted free legendaries, take a guess how many would be in favor? Going by what people want or believe to want is seldom a very good design decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?None of the earlier points are invalidated by later points made, I'm not sure you understand how this discussion has been going the last few pages. One side has been bringing multiple arguments as to why said change might be a bad idea while the other side has been sitting on their one sole argument going:"lalala people like easy raids lalala" without even giving a semblance of thought to what has been said. All points made by myself at least remain valid and actually reinforce later points made.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@yann.1946 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?I think you might have missed the point he/she was making.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?They didn't really copy anything. They constructed fractals the way they did to fake a treadmill.And dungeons have not gotten an easy mode altough it has been asked too.In a discussion its a lot better tot adress the point being made instead of trying to dismiss what others are saying. ( I know their are other people who also do this. Just trying to give some friendly advice)thing is, they are not arguing for something, they are throwing excuse after excuse for not making a thing happen purely because some are oh so desperately fighting to block something that would give value to other people, its highly selfish behavior, and its not good for a community based game like GW2. If you distil this down to its purest form and ask the casual community if they would like casual 10 man instances then im sure we all know the answer would be yes. That's the point here. Once you know this then implementation is a different problem, and Anet are smart cookies.When pointing a finger at someone else you are pointing with 4 back at yourself.Don't accuse others of malice simply because they are disagreeing. It shows very clearly where your state of thought is coming from.Except the thing is Cyn (Not directed at you), there are people here who admitted to just be arguing out of spite, which not a good thing,. 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IndigoSundown.5419 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:If you distil this down to its purest form and ask the casual community if they would like casual 10 man instances then im sure we all know the answer would be yes. That's the point here. Once you know this then implementation is a different problem, and Anet are smart cookies.You don't get to speak for the casual community, only the casual community that wants to do diluted instanced content.Does that mean that casual players who have no interest in instanced content wouldn't do easy raids if offered? No. However, that would in large part be because ANet would have to put scarce rewards behind such content. That would mean that other content would of necessity be impacted. In short, ANet would be signalling that GW2 had shifted away from a game where raids were niche hard content for the people who like such towards a game where raids are the primary form of endgame.A lot (I believe) of players bought GW2 because it offered an alternative to the raid-centric endgame. Speaking for them, we don't want to see a more raid-centric GW2.Hopefully, yes, ANet are smart. I hope they are smart enough to see that there are stakeholders who value the company's design intent for GW2 from the beginning. This intent was -- clearly -- that story and world events would be the primary form of casual endgame, with hard, instanced content for those who like the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@yann.1946 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.What I'm more curious is if these so called "Casual Raids" would exist in those other AAA mmorpgs if they weren't part of the gear progression.ofc instances need reward systems, really?I think you might have missed the point he/she was making.@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact. The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.Fine, so let's introduce a subscription fee to GW2, reduce the amount of gem store skins which need to get sold and put the saved resources to add more in-game luxury skins. Based on that get easy and hard mode raids with even more unique skins in for every difficulty people would want to play.Absolutely doable. So, who is up for a monthly GW2 subscription?This doesn't account for devaluing gear of corse, so we'll just remove acquired skins on a quarterly cycle forcing people to reacquire them just as they have to for gear sets in other games.Strawmen, As i said, If you guys want to believe that GW2 is the only AAA mmorpg in existence that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.No, but GW2 is the ONLY MMO which has no gear treadmill. Call it strawmen as much as you like does not make this less true. It's a reason why itemization from other games can't simply get copied over.soo, it works in 5 man instances in GW2, but lo, its impoooosssible to do it in 10 man instances lol. In any case the points was about precedence for desirability. We have ranged from WOW private servers to implementation to god knows what to find oh so many many many blockers for giving casual 10 man instances. Interesting right?They didn't really copy anything. They constructed fractals the way they did to fake a treadmill.And dungeons have not gotten an easy mode altough it has been asked too.In a discussion its a lot better tot adress the point being made instead of trying to dismiss what others are saying. ( I know their are other people who also do this. Just trying to give some friendly advice)thing is, they are not arguing for something, they are throwing excuse after excuse for not making a thing happen purely because some are oh so desperately fighting to block something that would give value to other people, its highly selfish behavior, and its not good for a community based game like GW2. If you distil this down to its purest form and ask the casual community if they would like casual 10 man instances then im sure we all know the answer would be yes. That's the point here. Once you know this then implementation is a different problem, and Anet are smart cookies.Adding value to other to other people isn't necessarily a good thing. Arenanet could right now with the flip of a switch unlock every skin, every miniature, every dye, on every single player's accounts. You'd add the maximum value to everyone, then. And it would crater GW2's population and almost certainly kill the game. Players wanting things and not having them yet is literally the lifeblood of MMORPGs. Easy mode raids with easy Envoy armor is that on a smaller scale.The people in this thread who want easy mode don't even all agree with what they want. Some want easy 10 man raids. Some want easy 5 man raids. Some want easy solo raids. Some want uninstanced open world raids like they're standard maps that players can just zerg through them. Some don't think there should be rewards, just as a way to experience the content. Some think it should have rewards, just less than hard mode. Some think easy mode should have more rewards than normal mode. Some people in this thread have argued that all items in the game should be obtained through a type of reward track that automatically fills up so that players can work on any reward in game doing anything they like so they're never required to do anything in particular and can just play doing what they want most. These are all arguments maid by easy mode advocates in this thread.So which does Arenanet even cater to? All of these requests? How do you cater to both the people who think easy mode should have less and more rewards than hard mode? That's actually a lot of work to have so many modes for the raids and would grind production on future raids to a halt. But if you don't cater to all the demands you're being highly selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @"Feanor.2358" said:Nope. it is pointless to have their own t1 version, because it serves no point - the t1 already exists. And the increased difficulty warrants the extra reward - just like the t4 has more rewards then t3 and the cms have more rewards than t4. So actually there are no mistakes and nothing to "fix".So, you're saying that there's no point for t1 oasis or Shattered, because t1 aquatic exists? It doesn't work like that, you know.@"Feanor.2358" said:So what exactly is your point? You can't make accessible endgame. It's pretty much an oxymoron."Whole game is the endgame". Remember that one? For many, many people that worked. It's only after selected few started pushing their own idea that "Endgame" must be something separate and with low accessibility that things started going south.The loss of that original GW2 approach is the thing i mourn the most.@mortrialus.3062 said:@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so horribly terrifyingly offended by this really simple obvious truth.Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people. You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW.That claim has been debunked several times in this thread already, and was only supported by really dubious numbers pulled out of the hat for both WoW live population and private servers. It was also comparing f2p account (not "live") numbers to a subscription game.Notice, by the way, that by similar comparison, gw1 would beat gw2. Or current WoW for that matter. Which only shows how ridiculous that is.@Tyson.5160 said:Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.Too bad they don't stay. Especially if there is a subscription they'd have to pay for that nostalgia.@"maddoctor.2738" said:You claim that these easier raids are for the enjoyment of casual players, but the truth is, they are also part of the gear progression. So the question was: would those easier instances survive, in those other mmorpgs, if they weren't part of the gear progression?The truth is, the origina raids were also a part of the gear progression. So, the better question would be - if the games weren't built around gear progression originally, would they still have the high-difficulty raid endmode as an "industry standard" or would the endgame evolve in some different directions (pvp, for example)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @"Astralporing.1957" said:The truth is, the origina raids were also a part of the gear progression. So, the better question would be - if the games weren't built around gear progression originally, would they still have the high-difficulty raid endmode as an "industry standard" or would the endgame evolve in some different directions (pvp, for example)?Original Raids weren't a part of gear progression, they were the "end game", you didn't have to play any of the Raids in order to play any other kind of content. If you could beat pre-Raid content, there was zero need to continue into Raids, the higher numbers in gear acquired from Raids, were only used to... beat more Raids. You were perfectly capable of playing the rest of the game without touching the high tier Raids.Nowadays, the easier tiers are where you can get the gear that you need to play the higher tiers, making them a valuable part of the gear progression, and in a sense, a gate for further content. There are other ways to get early Raid-worthy gear, but it's common knowledge that the lowest tiers of Raids are so easy and effortless it's the "go to" content to get you started.Games that aren't built around constant gear progression either go the PVP route (like most Korean MMORPGs do) or add an "end game" mode with unique looking gear behind the hardest content in their game, like for example in Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @"Astralporing.1957" said:"Whole game is the endgame". Remember that one? For many, many people that worked. It's only after selected few started pushing their own idea that "Endgame" must be something separate and with low accessibility that things started going south.The loss of that original GW2 approach is the thing i mourn the most.This gets repeated over and over. If this approach had been as successful as people like to make it out to have been, Arenanet would not have changed their business model over the years.Repeating this over and over does not make it any more true. I very much doubt Arenanet decided to change their entire approach to the game due to a vocal minority except if it was their stakeholders maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @Astralporing.1957 said:@"Feanor.2358" said:Nope. it is pointless to have their own t1 version, because it serves no point - the t1 already exists. And the increased difficulty warrants the extra reward - just like the t4 has more rewards then t3 and the cms have more rewards than t4. So actually there are no mistakes and nothing to "fix".So, you're saying that there's no point for t1 oasis or Shattered, because t1 aquatic exists? It doesn't work like that, you know.@"Feanor.2358" said:So what exactly is your point? You can't make accessible endgame. It's pretty much an oxymoron."Whole game is the endgame". Remember that one? For many, many people that worked. It's only after selected few started pushing their own idea that "Endgame" must be something separate and with low accessibility that things started going south.The loss of that original GW2 approach is the thing i mourn the most.@mortrialus.3062 said:@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so horribly terrifyingly offended by this really simple obvious truth.Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people. You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW.That claim has been debunked several times in this thread already, and was only supported by really dubious numbers pulled out of the hat for both WoW live population and private servers. It was also comparing f2p account (not "live") numbers to a subscription game.Notice, by the way, that by similar comparison, gw1 would beat gw2. Or current WoW for that matter. Which only shows how ridiculous that is.@Tyson.5160 said:Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.Too bad they don't stay. Especially if there is a subscription they'd have to pay for that nostalgia.@"maddoctor.2738" said:You claim that these easier raids are for the enjoyment of casual players, but the truth is, they are also part of the gear progression. So the question was: would those easier instances survive, in those other mmorpgs, if they weren't part of the gear progression?The truth is, the origina raids were also a part of the gear progression. So, the better question would be - if the games weren't built around gear progression originally, would they still have the high-difficulty raid endmode as an "industry standard" or would the endgame evolve in some different directions (pvp, for example)?It's so debunked Blizzard themselves acknowledged it as being the case and announced a rerelease of WoW 1.12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @"Astralporing.1957" said:"Whole game is the endgame". Remember that one? For many, many people that worked. It's only after selected few started pushing their own idea that "Endgame" must be something separate and with low accessibility that things started going south.The loss of that original GW2 approach is the thing i mourn the most.The "whole game is the endgame," indeed. The "original" endgame intent for GW2 was Story, WvW, PvP, massive open world events, and instanced content with exclusive rewards that was aimed at "coordinated teams of skilled players." The "endgame" you're remembering with nostalgia is a product of a failed intent, due to poor explorable dungeon encounters. This led to trivialized harder instanced content within a short time. The "whole game is endgame" was never intended to mean that the "whole endgame is going to be cut to fit every player."The irony. With raids as implemented, ANet has actually come closer to their original intent for content diversification across multiple demographics than they have been since very shortly after launch. The thing is, a select few have decided that they're not OK with ANet's original intent. Instead, they prefer the idea that everything the game produces has to be for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:i'm saying there is a precedent for casual players enjoying casual raids in all AAA mmorpg.Can we stop with this absolute non-sense already? Casual Raids are not what casual players are running in other mmorpgs, it's what all players are running to get their gear. To get high quality gear in order to go to the higher difficulty Raids afterwards. "Casual" Raids are part of the gear treadmill, that's why they exist, not to cater to casual players and give them specific content to run.Poor raider, so tunnel visioned you cannot comprehend that people can enjoy raiding without aiming for min maxing gear. Im in 2 300+ member guilds in ESO, and we enjoy normal raiding regularly, its good fun, we have a laugh and we all get to play together. Both guilds have about 10% or so players that do vet mode. Maybe we are imagining it, who knows! Rather than attacking people, find a solution - how would you give 10 man instances to casual players in GW2 that cleary don't like the existing tuned raids? I actually don't expect an answer to that, excuses and strawman to avoid this simple question incoming.Running storymode dungeons will give you literally the exact same game play experience as easy mode raids would, just with 5 players instead of 10. You already have your easy mode instanced group content. The gameplay you're asking for is already there. In game. Right now.You also didn't respond to my last post directed at you. Adding value to other to other people isn't necessarily a good thing. Arenanet could right now with the flip of a switch unlock every skin, every miniature, every dye, on every single player's accounts. You'd add the maximum value to everyone, then. And it would crater GW2's population and almost certainly kill the game. Players wanting things and not having them yet is literally the lifeblood of MMORPGs. Easy mode raids with easy Envoy armor is that on a smaller scale.The people in this thread who want easy mode don't even all agree with what they want. Some want easy 10 man raids. Some want easy 5 man raids. Some want easy solo raids. Some want uninstanced open world raids like they're standard maps that players can just zerg through them. Some don't think there should be rewards, just as a way to experience the content. Some think it should have rewards, just less than hard mode. Some think easy mode should have more rewards than normal mode. Some people in this thread have argued that all items in the game should be obtained through a type of reward track that automatically fills up so that players can work on any reward in game doing anything they like so they're never required to do anything in particular and can just play doing what they want most. These are all arguments maid by easy mode advocates in this thread.So which does Arenanet even cater to? All of these requests? How do you cater to both the people who think easy mode should have less and more rewards than hard mode? That's actually a lot of work to have so many modes for the raids and would grind production on future raids to a halt. But if you don't cater to all the demands you're being highly selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@maddoctor.2738 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:i'm saying there is a precedent for casual players enjoying casual raids in all AAA mmorpg.Can we stop with this absolute non-sense already? Casual Raids are not what casual players are running in other mmorpgs, it's what all players are running to get their gear. To get high quality gear in order to go to the higher difficulty Raids afterwards. "Casual" Raids are part of the gear treadmill, that's why they exist, not to cater to casual players and give them specific content to run.Poor raider, so tunnel visioned you cannot comprehend that people can enjoy raiding without aiming for min maxing gear. Im in 2 300+ member guilds in ESO, and we enjoy normal raiding regularly, its good fun, we have a laugh and we all get to play together. Both guilds have about 10% or so players that do vet mode. Maybe we are imagining it, who knows! Rather than attacking people, find a solution - how would you give 10 man instances to casual players in GW2 that cleary don't like the existing tuned raids? I actually don't expect an answer to that, excuses and strawman to avoid this simple question incoming.Haven't you Read the other threads about this topic? Their have been given a lot of suggestions about this already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 @mortrialus.3062 said:Running storymode dungeons will give you literally the exact same game play experience as easy mode raids would, just with 5 players instead of 10. You already have your easy mode instanced group content. The gameplay you're asking for is already there. In game. Right now.I never really like this logic when it’s brought up. There is “5 man easy content in the game right now”, sure those are dungeons or fractals, what does that have to do with Raids? I want to play some story content in Path of Fire, but you already have your story content in personal story. In game. Right now. For free. Kinda the same logic.Honestly for the story mode people that want to do it for story purposes, Anet should make a 20 man raid weekend or week and then those people can experience the story and maybe do another one a couple months down the line. Then those folks are appeased without really causing any real madness to the mode and the pool of complaints shrinks, heck a few of those people might get into raiding because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 @mortrialus.3062 said:You also didn't respond to my last post directed at you. Adding value to other to other people isn't necessarily a good thing. Arenanet could right now with the flip of a switch unlock every skin, every miniature, every dye, on every single player's accounts. You'd add the maximum value to everyone, then. And it would crater GW2's population and almost certainly kill the game. Players wanting things and not having them yet is literally the lifeblood of MMORPGs. Easy mode raids with easy Envoy armor is that on a smaller scale.The people in this thread who want easy mode don't even all agree with what they want. Some want easy 10 man raids. Some want easy 5 man raids. Some want easy solo raids. Some want uninstanced open world raids like they're standard maps that players can just zerg through them. Some don't think there should be rewards, just as a way to experience the content. Some think it should have rewards, just less than hard mode. Some think easy mode should have more rewards than normal mode. Some people in this thread have argued that all items in the game should be obtained through a type of reward track that automatically fills up so that players can work on any reward in game doing anything they like so they're never required to do anything in particular and can just play doing what they want most. These are all arguments maid by easy mode advocates in this thread.So which does Arenanet even cater to? All of these requests? How do you cater to both the people who think easy mode should have less and more rewards than hard mode? That's actually a lot of work to have so many modes for the raids and would grind production on future raids to a halt. But if you don't cater to all the demands you're being highly selfish.All of that aplied equally well to people asking for raids. And yet it didn't prevent Anet from implementing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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