GW2 needs more optimization than just DX11.

[Dawdler.8521]

22 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think the map artists don't use proper culling materials in the new map areas, as all the surfaces you can't see have real textures and aren't eliminated at build time. you can see this on any map by breaking out of it (often by accident), but on most of them the other side of the surfaces isn't visible.

 

in a properly designed map, hidden surfaces are supposed to have a culling material and get dropped entirely when the map is built.

 

maybe this system would work if their dynamic culling applied at run-time worked very well, but it seems to be only very basic since they removed gpu-accelerated umbra culling when they made the switch from directx 9 to dx11, actually slowing the game down for some players.

This is pretty pointless though - GW2 is most definetly *not* restricted by the overall enviroment graphics on any decent (or half a decade old) graphics cards. It's the player model count, dynamic shadows and effects that choke it. All of which happen in your face en masse (ie boss fights, 150 man WvW 3-ways, etc) and can already be pretty aggressively LODded. You cant occlusion cull that with "culling materials", not how rendering work. Model count is the worst offender since it directly affects the amount of other things, which can easily be seen in scenes like the dragonfall ending where all players are moved to the cliffside. On highest settings the game can slow to a crawl, drop it down a few notches and it's probably going to be smooth as butter.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Assolador.3598]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

then you clearly don't raid or pvp or wvw or are aware of the general consensus or aware that the developers themselves 2 years ago admitted there was major issues and started a program of work.

man I said eso is better than gw2 performance wise lol, read again

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

This is pretty pointless though - GW2 is most definetly *not* restricted by the overall enviroment graphics on any decent (or half a decade old) graphics cards. It's the player model count, dynamic shadows and effects that choke it. All of which happen in your face en masse (ie boss fights, 150 man WvW 3-ways, etc) and can already be pretty aggressively LODded. You cant occlusion cull that with "culling materials", not how rendering work. Model count is the worst offender since it directly affects the amount of other things, which can easily be seen in scenes like the dragonfall ending where all players are moved to the cliffside. On highest settings the game can slow to a crawl, drop it down a few notches and it's probably going to be smooth as butter.

well the op was specifically talking about the new maps, for example if you look at the world spire in amnytas your fps drops by 70-80%. lowering the polygon count of the spire wold help also, but its the same issue really; quick and dirty map design.

Edited November 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Mewone.3247]

What do you expect from an engine that runs and looks like guild wars 1? Also, I dont think they could improve the engine to run better even if they wanted to because they fired everyone who has had any deeper knowledge.

[Bladestrom.6425]

18 hours ago, Assolador.3598 said:

man I said eso is better than gw2 performance wise lol, read again

i was referring to ESO 🙂

Edited November 3, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Zephire.8049]

3 hours ago, Mewone.3247 said:

What do you expect from an engine that runs and looks like guild wars 1? Also, I dont think they could improve the engine to run better even if they wanted to because they fired everyone who has had any deeper knowledge.

That's because it is GW1's engine. Which is why I've always preferred a new engine over just upgrading to DX11. That's decades of technical debt and an engine that was made when single cores were a thing and before DX10 came out, with who knows how much (or little) documentation and "quirks" by people who worked at Arenanet in the early 00s (e.g. the start of putting any and all graphic options in post-processing with the exception of a handful of them). There's only so far it can be upgraded. A new engine would be work but it would allow for further optimization and address the conflicts there are with building a modern MMO on a C-RPG engine from two decades ago.

Eventually kicking that can down the road will stop working.

[Gravitron.7982]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:20 AM, Sindust.7059 said:

I have an AMD 7950X3D CPU and an AMD 7900XTX GPU with 64GB of DDR5-6000 CL30 RAM. And this is my FPS in some places that are nearly empty (if the pic gets deleted some day: 20-30 fps in Amnytas if looking towards the center of the zone, dpending on where I stand and the exact direction of the camera, at 1440p with settings cranked, aside from those that I don't like visually), and it can get even lower during intense metas. This is unplayable sub-30 fps with hardware that is close to the absolute best available that is 10 years newer than the "recommended" system requirements. ANet needs to do to GW2 what ZOS did to ESO, and perform some massive optimizations if they intend to continue creating zones that are this bad on the hardware. Not even Starfield dips this low in the most intensive places and situations.

ESO, SWTOR, all run great on modern hardware. GW2 seems to be an MMO that still struggles with performance, it's crazy. 

[Astralporing.1957]

On 11/3/2023 at 12:43 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

well the op was specifically talking about the new maps, for example if you look at the world spire in amnytas your fps drops by 70-80%. lowering the polygon count of the spire wold help also, but its the same issue really; quick and dirty map design.

That's not a problem with (un)optimized game engine. It's a problem due to apparently less and less work being put in map design. Engine is a tool, no matter its quality, if you use it sloppily, you get sloppy results.

[Assolador.3598]

22 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

i was referring to ESO 🙂

oh, I did all of these, trials, dungeons, cyro(wvw), none get as laggy as gw2, while on city it runs perfectly, on wvw it runs very very well,still some lag as I don't have a top tier pc, and I have my graphics into max, raids also runs perfectly, this is not the case with gw2, REALLY

[Junkpile.7439]

My only problem is that game stutter weirdly when fps is high. I need to use amd chill to keep fps lower. 99 percentile show big  drops.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[Bladestrom.6425]

20 hours ago, Assolador.3598 said:

oh, I did all of these, trials, dungeons, cyro(wvw), none get as laggy as gw2, while on city it runs perfectly, on wvw it runs very very well,still some lag as I don't have a top tier pc, and I have my graphics into max, raids also runs perfectly, this is not the case with gw2, REALLY

lol you must have played when the game was empty.  outside of open word and instances with < 10 people the game is broken.: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/637691/server-multithreading-update-july-2023 

watch this jerky broken mess  and this is actually a normal daily occurrence, and note there is not even any big blobs fighting nearby.  Whereas in GW2 its smooth 60 all the time even with blob v blob fights.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Sindust.7059]

4 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

lol you must have played when the game was empty.  outside of open word and instances with < 10 people the game is broken.: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/637691/server-multithreading-update-july-2023 

watch this jerky broken mess  and this is actually a normal daily occurrence, and note there is not even any big blobs fighting nearby.  Whereas in GW2 its smooth 60 all the time even with blob v blob fights.

 

You're talking about a different thing here. The server multithreading (as opposed to multithreaded rendering that is implemented on the client side) is about lag, not about fps. And with no fps counters in this video you linked I can't tell what the fps is when the video itself is 30 fps. For all I know you're running at smooth 300fps, and all I see is the result of compression.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Sindust.7059

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, Sindust.7059 said:

You're talking about a different thing here. The server multithreading (as opposed to multithreaded rendering that is implemented on the client side) is about lag, not about fps. And with no fps counters in this video you linked I can't tell what the fps is when the video itself is 30 fps. For all I know you're running at smooth 300fps, and all I see is the result of compression.

There is 10 years of videos and chat on that subject for ESO, it is renowned for performance issues, for e.g try open world rifts that have a big squad.      Put it this way, when is the last time your experienced was ruined in GW2 due rubber banding or failed spell queues, or fps collapsing to 10 fps because the entire zone has ground to a halt due to the server maxing out. I've played since beta and have never seen any issues like this ever whereas its a common occurrence in ESO whenever there are people grouped and casting spells.

The point is however that GW2 is good enough that the we get better value from the devs time on new content, not adjusting the engine to get more fps when the game is already rock solid at 60+

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Sindust.7059]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

the game is already rock solid at 60+

Look at the screenshot that I linked in the first post. Does 24 fps in the middle of nowhere look like "rock solid 60+" to you? And there is nothing going on, so the entire discussion about too many people casting too many spells is entirely besides the point. There is no place in ESO where the fps drops this low if nothing is going on.

And if you think that GW2 is rock solid 60 fps when something is happening, you should try to do some popular meta when there are actually a lot of people around. It drops to below 10 fps. So there is literally no situation where GW2 performs better than ESO (fps wise), and you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. You either haven't really played ESO or GW2 to claim otherwise. Or you play ESO with all settings maxed and multithreaded rendering disabled, and GW2 at ultra low.

There used to be a time when there were situations when ESO performed worse, but that was years ago, which is why those videos over the past 10 years that you're alluding to are absolutely irrelevant, only the past 2-3 years, and with decreasing relevance the older they are, because the optimization work on ESO is ongoing. Nowadays my average fps throughout a gaming session in ESO is about 2-3x higher than in GW2, and it's also a lot more stable. Even in new zones and in raids. This is the kind of work that ANet has to do if they want to stay relevant.

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Look at the screenshot that I linked in the first post. Does 24 fps in the middle of nowhere look like "rock solid 60+" to you? And there is nothing going on, so the entire discussion about too many people casting too many spells is entirely besides the point. There is no place in ESO where the fps drops this low if nothing is going on.

And if you think that GW2 is rock solid 60 fps when something is happening, you should try to do some popular meta when there are actually a lot of people around. It drops to below 10 fps. So there is literally no situation where GW2 performs better than ESO (fps wise), and you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. You either haven't really played ESO or GW2 to claim otherwise. Or you play ESO with all settings maxed and multithreaded rendering disabled, and GW2 at ultra low.

There used to be a time when there were situations when ESO performed worse, but that was years ago, which is why those videos over the past 10 years that you're alluding to are absolutely irrelevant, only the past 2-3 years, and with decreasing relevance the older they are, because the optimization work on ESO is ongoing. Nowadays my average fps throughout a gaming session in ESO is about 2-3x higher than in GW2, and it's also a lot more stable. Even in new zones and in raids. This is the kind of work that ANet has to do if they want to stay relevant.

out of the entire GW2 map there is 1 zone (amnytas) that spikes under 60 fps on my ancient overclocked i3, so no idea what's going on with these computers (i have shadows down 1 notch, that's it), but regardless, 1 singe zone does not justify moving dev resource away from content to optimisation.  Now if content was plentiful then it would certainly do no harm, but that's not the case, so the opportunity cost is massive - do you really want zero content over the next couple of years while they increase performance for a tiny % of the player base that finds GW2 performance distracting?

regarding ESO, to quote ZOS themselves (below) this is what they said a couple years ago.  They reported back this year that they had failed.

we are going to rearchitect our server. The version of ESO in 2022 is many magnitudes larger and more complex than the ESO that launched in 2014. So, in order to give everyone a good play experience in high-intensity situations like PvP and Trials, we need to essentially rewrite some of the foundational server code to account for it. This should dramatically increase server performance, but obviously we will need to test and evaluate as we go along.

Edited November 5, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Sindust.7059]

17 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

out of the entire GW2 map there is 1 zone (amnytas) that spikes under 60 fps on my ancient overclocked i3, so no idea what's going on with these computers (i have shadows down 1 notch, that's it), but regardless, 1 singe zone does not justify moving dev resource away from content to optimisation.  Now if content was plentiful then it would certainly do no harm, but that's not the case, so the opportunity cost is massive - do you really want zero content over the next couple of years while they increase performance for a tiny % of the player base that finds GW2 performance distracting?

regarding ESO, to quote ZOS themselves (below) this is what they said a couple years ago.  They reported back this year that they had failed.

we are going to rearchitect our server. The version of ESO in 2022 is many magnitudes larger and more complex than the ESO that launched in 2014. So, in order to give everyone a good play experience in high-intensity situations like PvP and Trials, we need to essentially rewrite some of the foundational server code to account for it. This should dramatically increase server performance, but obviously we will need to test and evaluate as we go along.

Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about client performance, it is about server performance. Server performance (i.e. lag/rubberbanding) and client performance (i.e. fps) have nothing to do with each other. And if they do, that's some seriously messed up spaghetti code that should never have been pushed into production in the first place, and should be fixed ASAP. Using this quote while talking about FPS is akin to saying that your TV is broken while watching a football game just because your favorite team is losing.

Also a designer will not work on the game engine optimizations, so content and engine optimizations are not mutually exclusive, because it's different people working on different things.

And Amnytas isn't the only zone to drop below 60. The Wizard's Tower gets as low as 40 even with barely anyone there (if the instance is about to close, and most people have already left the place), and sits around 35 otherwise. Here I got 44 in New Kaineng City, and here 43 in Seitung Province. And here is 44 in Verdant Brink so that you can't claim that the low fps only happens in new zones. This happens all over the place. It rarely goes below 30, but 40-60 is not a rare sight at all. If you fly around a bit in any of the more dense non-core zones, you're certain to find spots like this in almost all of them. The fact that it happens more in the newest zones is also more of a reason to start working on optimizations now before none of the newly released content can be played any more.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about client performance, it is about server performance. Server performance (i.e. lag/rubberbanding) and client performance (i.e. fps) have nothing to do with each other.

Fun fact: most of the GW2 performance issues are due to server architecture, not client performance.

[Aether.7095]

On 10/28/2023 at 5:20 PM, Sindust.7059 said:

20-30 fps in Amnytas if looking towards the center of the zone

While we agree that there is optimizations needed, very much so, you might still want to check your system. I have worse hardware than you do (5800X, 4070) and I get 48fps in the same location with higher settings than yours.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

Well someone is lying here.

I've seen one person claim to get buttery smooth FPS in 3-way WvW blob fights (Please tell me your settings) while claiming ESO gets poor performance with only a handful of players present. While in the same conversation someone else is claiming to get sub-30 FPS in an empty GW2 map on a beast of a PC while themselves stating that ESO is always locked at a 160fps refresh rate. Which is it? Someone isn't telling the truth.

Differences in hardware only accounts for so much, I find it highly unlikely that any setup is going to experience such a complete disparity in performance on the two games assuming all other things being equal (e.g. game settings), while another experiences the same extremes but reversed.

I haven't played ESO for several years, and didn't really play for long so I can't say anything for that game, although I have no reason to doubt that if they did some engine optimization overhaul perhaps the current performance of the game is good.

However my GW2 experience, on a PC that although admittedly quite old now is still more than sufficient to expect a smooth experience from a game of this age (were it properly optimized), is that large scale fights and newer areas do suffer in terms of performance. I don't believe anyone that claims to be getting 60fps+ in a 50v50v50 WvW blob, you're lying. If you are getting that you must be playing with only standard models, no shadows, maximum effect culling, at a low resolution. In which case you are only fooling yourself into believing there is no optimization issue in this game.

Hyperbole aside, anyone that reckons they have GW2 running at 60fps at all times, please list your exact settings. I'm curious to know what exactly gives you that FPS boost, since to my understanding there has always been a huge CPU bottleneck, so throwing hardware at it won't help. I have the same performance now as I did in 2012 on a much older system, and it seems people with current gen high end hardware are also experiencing the same.

[Chaba.5410]

How exactly does one claim it is the game engine problem when the issue occurs on one or two specific maps in specific locations? That sounds like a map problem, as Softfootpaws was trying to explain.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:20 AM, Sindust.7059 said:

And this is my FPS in some places that are nearly empty 

Why do you have Anti-Aliasing and Post-Processing off when you turn up everything else to max?  Kind of weird choices there.

The biggest offenders that affect FPS are:
Reflections
Shadows
Character Model Limit
Character Model Quality
Effect LOD
 

 

[Chaba.5410]

"AMD 7900XTX"

Have you looked at all into any potential performance problems with this GPU and DX11 games?  Just a cursory google search yields some basic information about AMD driver configuration, possibly turning off Chill, and potential to get better performance from under-volting that card (strange).

See, for example:
 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

Another item of note, players can fool themselves by trusting the in-game "auto-detect" for graphics settings too much.  It's a starting point only, not a guarantee that you'll get the best looks with the best performance.

[Tummy Kuolema.4678]

Seeing your graphics settings, you might want to take a look at this guide, which helped me to improve some performance issues: A guide for improving Guild Wars 2 performance and fixing problems

This might be helpful too: [Top 20] Guild Wars 2 Best Graphics Settings For Better Performance

[Sindust.7059]

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Why do you have Anti-Aliasing and Post-Processing off when you turn up everything else to max?  Kind of weird choices there.

The biggest offenders that affect FPS are:
Reflections
Shadows
Character Model Limit
Character Model Quality
Effect LOD
 

 

Like I explained in the first post, I maxed everything except for the things I don't like visually. Anti-aliasing always makes games look blurry, I always disable it. I don't remember why I disabled postprocessing, I think I found the light rays distracting. In any case at no point did I consider the performance impact, because I shouldn't have to lower settings to get good performance on a high end PC that is over 10 years newer than the game.

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

"AMD 7900XTX"

Have you looked at all into any potential performance problems with this GPU and DX11 games?  Just a cursory google search yields some basic information about AMD driver configuration, possibly turning off Chill, and potential to get better performance from under-volting that card (strange).

See, for example:
 

 

Radeon chill is off. And undervolting/overclocking won't make a difference, because my GPU load rarely exceeds 40% to begin with (and is even lower in those places where the FPS drops). These things will only make a difference if it's at 100% already. And considering that the CPU load is also at <25%, this is purely a single thread bottleneck. And I have PBO on and thermal limit increased to 85C to improve single thread performance. Undervolting makes my CPU unstable, and gives 1% better performance at best, so it wouldn't add a single frame in those sub-30 fps scenarios. And I did benchmark the CPU, it's performing exactly as is expected in cinebench, so if there are any issues, they wouldn't explain a 2-3x difference in performance.

If neither the CPU nor GPU are at 100% load, it's a problem with the game, so you should stop making excuses for the kitten programming. My PC has no issues, because there are no such problems in ESO, New World, Red Dead Redemption 2 or Starfield. All of these games run smoothly.