DPS and PowerCreep has gotten out of control. Nerf DPS

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Potential Guild Wars 2 players were turned away from buying the game after seeing this video of 1 a class, one shotting multiple players. 

News at 6 ... players decide to not play a game. 

Also in the news, players convince themselves doomposting is effective way to get game changes. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Burnfall.9573]

The Last Guild Wars 

"We know our players and our game much better than we used to, and we're able to focus on addressing community needs and balance issues in a much more focused way."

"After all, a game should be something you do for fun, not an obligation."

"We were really just trying to make something that people would enjoy playing and would want to tell their friends about."

"There are more examples I could give of the ways that Guild Wars stood out from the crowd, but I think it comes down to us trying to make a game where fun was the first priority"

"We want Guild Wars to be as fun as possible for the people playing it. We think it's important to continue to attract new players into GW for its own sake"

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/2010-04-26-arenanets-design-director-looks-at-past-and-future-of-guild-war.html

[Obtena.7952]

Morning News ... doomposter randomly posts quotes from Anet. 

[Yasai.3549]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:20 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

News at 6 ... players decide to not play a game. 

Also in the news, players convince themselves doomposting is effective way to get game changes. 

"Anet.... if you don't do this.... I WON'T PLAY YOUR GAME! YOUR GAME WILL DIE!"

"Wait... why did Anet not listen to the feedback of people who quit the game...." 

[MisterDantes.1384]

People screaming "halve the damage" have not been playing enough end-game content. CMs are designed with power creep in mind and removing damage would make these extremely boring or even down-right unplayable

[Burnfall.9573]

The Never Ending Saga of Power Creep, One Shot, Toxic Stealth Mechanic Design Of Guild Wars 2> Beta>Working As Intended with Surprise at the end 

11 Years+ of Beta Testing L-O-L

Edited December 6, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[anbujackson.9564]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:27 PM, MisterDantes.1384 said:

People screaming "halve the damage" have not been playing enough end-game content. CMs are designed with power creep in mind and removing damage would make these extremely boring or even down-right unplayable

You serious? 80-90% of the endgame content is years old. How can it be intended then that classes get stronger every year? 

Killing/phasing fractal bosses in mere seconds is boring. Killing raid and strike bosses while basically ignoring most mechanics is boring. And the cms are no exception.

Tell the people 4+ years ago how modern power creep is necessary to do the content.

Edited December 6, 2023 by anbujackson.9564

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

You serious? 80-90% of the endgame content is years old. How can it be intended then that classes get stronger every year? 

Killing/phasing fractal bosses in mere seconds is boring. Killing raid and strike bosses while basically ignoring most mechanics is boring. And the cms are no exception.

Tell the people 4+ years ago how modern power creep is necessary to do the content.

I think some context here is important. 

1. The person you are replying to is talking specifically about DPS.

2. DPS values haven't increased since 4+ years ago (we had 40K+ DPSers back then).

3. The power creep is due to healing, quickness, alacrity provision, not an increase in general DPS values

In otherwords, it's not hard to see how the poster "is serious" considering the new endgame content they are likely referring to IS designed around the roles we have and the old endgame content isn't. It would be VERY EASY for someone who doesn't consider the design of the newer endgame content to simply call for DPS nerfs as a fix for 'boring old endgame content'. Unfortunately for those people, it's old content and Anet is unlikely to support class changes to maintain a difficulty for old content that compromises how they are moving forward with the future of the game.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[LadyKitty.6120]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think some context here is important. 

1. The person you are replying to is talking specifically about DPS.

2. DPS values haven't increased since 4+ years ago (we had 40K+ DPSers back then).

3. The power creep is due to healing, quickness, alacrity provision, not an increase in general DPS values

Umm... 

2. Kinda true for 4 years ago when top deepsers were indeed doing about 40k. Not true 6 years ago pre-PoF when small hitboxes were 33k. Use wayback machine if you don't believe Kitty.

3. Quickness and Alacrity uptime hasn't really increased since raids came. Already in 2017 when Kitty started raiding and W4 was released, full might+fury+quickness+alacrity+banners+Empower Allies+spirits+Grace of the Land were required in basically every squad. In autumn 2018 BP they made rene's Orders from Above alacrity and druid's GotL might+spirits 10-target (though not 100% sure if spirits were at that point or later) which did allow using quick/healbrand as 2nd healer and chrono to focus on quickness. Uptime didn't change. Then they made most of the boons 10-target which allowed further condensing for a moment. Uptimes didn't change. EoD reverted them to 5-target and a year ago they removed unique buffs which actually resulted in big dps losses (but somewhat broke the support monopolies) but since then they've made heavy-handed buffs to traits, condi stacks/durations and power coefficients to compensate for those losses and to creep up base DPS level from 30-33k of 2017 to 40-44k these days. Pretty much 33% buff in 6 years.

Just had to fact check those since those have been waaaay too common misconceptions on these forums lately.

Edited December 7, 2023 by LadyKitty.6120

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Umm... 

2. Kinda true for 4 years ago when top deepsers were indeed doing about 40k. Not true 6 years ago pre-PoF when small hitboxes were 33k. Use wayback machine if you don't believe Kitty.

3. Quickness and Alacrity uptime hasn't really increased since raids came. Already in 2017 when Kitty started raiding and W4 was released, full might+fury+quickness+alacrity+banners+Empower Allies+spirits+Grace of the Land were required in basically every squad. In autumn 2018 BP they made rene's Orders from Above alacrity and druid's GotL might+spirits 10-target (though not 100% sure if spirits were at that point or later) which did allow using quick/healbrand as 2nd healer and chrono to focus on quickness. Uptime didn't change. Then they made most of the boons 10-target which allowed further condensing for a moment. Uptimes didn't change. EoD reverted them to 5-target and a year ago they removed unique buffs which actually resulted in big dps losses (but somewhat broke the support monopolies) but since then they've made heavy-handed buffs to traits, condi stacks/durations and power coefficients to compensate for those losses and to creep up base DPS level from 30-33k of 2017 to 40-44k these days. Pretty much 33% buff in 6 years.

Just had to fact check those since those have been waaaay too common misconceptions on these forums lately.

Sure, I believe you but the point here isn't to debate the evolution of DPS increases. I don't even see the relevance of bringing it up. It's not actually that important in the discussion. 

Again, the relevant point here is that the post in question by @MisterDantes.1384was probably NOT talking about old endgame content that isn't designed around people doing 40K DPS with a team full of support roles when they said "endgame content". The difference isn't the DPS or even the perma boon situation. The difference is how content is designed now that this roles-based system is established vs. before when it wasn't. 

I think it goes without saying that if you take a team with 40K DPSers filling all roles, pretty much all content prior to EoD CM's is going to look significantly less challenging, moreso the older content is. Certainly IF there is a solution to that, it's not to cut DPS, because the newer content IS designed to be challenging at that DPS level with a full team of 100% Q&A uptime with heals. 

The bottomline: the idea that DPS get nerfed to ensure 'difficulty' for old content is just dumb and short sighted. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:43 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, I believe you but the point here isn't to debate the evolution of DPS increases. I don't even see the relevance of bringing it up. It's not actually that important in the discussion. 

Again, the relevant point here is that the post in question by @MisterDantes.1384was probably NOT talking about old endgame content that isn't designed around people doing 40K DPS with a team full of support roles when they said "endgame content". The difference isn't the DPS or even the perma boon situation. The difference is how content is designed now that this roles-based system is established vs. before when it wasn't. 

I think it goes without saying that if you take a team with 40K DPSers filling all roles, pretty much all content prior to EoD CM's is going to look significantly less challenging, moreso the older content is. Certainly IF there is a solution to that, it's not to cut DPS, because the newer content IS designed to be challenging at that DPS level with a full team of 100% Q&A uptime with heals. 

The bottomline: the idea that DPS get nerfed to ensure 'difficulty' for old content is just dumb and short sighted. 

Of course its relevant to talk about the evolution of dps. Like already mentioned, dps back in the day required a lot of different buffs which all got scrapped and instead every class got continiously stronger as compensation (way more than needed).

Saying that classes got the same dps years ago is just half the truth (see your first post). I am not talking about golem numbers here, where every class specific buff was up permanently. 

And about your reference to the person I quoted: How would you even know that this was his intended message? He could mean every content for all we know. 

And again: Its stupid to assume that CMs require powercreep. What kind of mindset is that?

Oh hey, so we made this new content one year ago which people already cleared. But just to make sure we increase the dps of the classes, make it less reliant on others, spread boons even further. And then we can make the new stuff a bit more challenging again. Repeat this cycle and you get the last years of gw2 endgame content and inbetween you got people who keep crying for more buffs and damage because they think its required to clear the content which has barely any dps checks.

About your bottomline: You know whats dumb? Making new content while sacrifing the rest for it. This is a horizontal game, old content should be equally as hard as new stuff.

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

You know whats dumb? Making new content while sacrifing the rest for it. This is a horizontal game, old content should be equally as hard as new stuff.

The reality is that even if that was a dumb move (questionable to begin with)... that's what we have. This thread is nonsensical. It's absurd to think Anet is going to nerf DPS levels JUST to retain old content difficulty, especially since they create new content that is MORE difficult for the people that are already able to rip through old content with their eyes closed WITH the old DPS levels and no roles.  

The insane thing here is that people aren't recognizing that Anet has intentionally made older content EASIER, as well as included a difficulty system in new content. Have you put any thinking to why what Anet is doing is OPPOSITE to what the thread is asking for? I got an answer for you ... because endgame content (old an new) was NOT in the range of what most players were capable of achieving. 

Hot take: Some highly capable players don't find old content hard anymore? Well, that's just too bad. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The reality is that even if that was a dumb move (questionable to begin with)... that's what we have. This thread is nonsensical. It's absurd to think Anet is going to nerf DPS levels JUST to retain old content difficulty, especially since they create new content that is MORE difficult for the people that are already able to rip through old content with their eyes closed WITH the old DPS levels and no roles.  

The insane thing here is that people aren't recognizing that Anet has intentionally made older content EASIER, as well as included a difficulty system in new content. Have you put any thinking to why what Anet is doing is OPPOSITE to what the thread is asking for? I got an answer for you ... because endgame content (old an new) was NOT in the range of what most players were capable of achieving. 

Hot take: Some highly capable players don't find old content hard anymore? Well, that's just too bad. 

Hot take for you: Most of the players wont raid even if they buff every class to 50k dps. So your statement is pointless. And you dont need to be "highly capable" to clear older bosses in less than five minutes. 

Also I think its funny. You are basically saying its great that they make old content easier and easier over the years so "most players" (who will never raid anyway like I said) can finish it. And at the same time you point at the new content for the "better players", which is so hard again, that "most players" wont be able to do it AGAIN. Do you even listen to yourself? 

Lastly this thread isnt nonsensical. Its to point out an opinion (based on facts everyone can see) about a flawed balance philosophy and not just take it for granted "because ANET said so". Imagine thinking and acting like this in real life... 

Edited December 10, 2023 by anbujackson.9564

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Hot take for you: Most of the players wont raid even if they buff every class to 50k dps. So your statement is pointless.

Again, this isn't a debate club. I'm telling you that the direction of the game development is OPPOSITE to what the result the OP is asking for. That's not pointless, that's called ... context. 

The context of the game is pointless with regards to the validity of the request? 100% certain ... it's not. 

The OP and his proponents simply aren't considering that Anet direction with the game is to make it as accessible to as many players as they can. That direction does not seem inline with a game-wide nerf to DPS+other critical performance parameters. If someone cares to explain how those two things can co-exist, let's hear it. Otherwise, the suggestion doesn't make sense. 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952