Can you please tone down these low skill condi/condibomb builds

[Flowki.7194]

Condi zerker, specter, core condi thief, multiple ranger condi/immob specs, core gaurd condi, condi mech, condi mesmers.

There are so many of these low effort builds in use now, and its kitten near impossible to clense/avoid this kitten when every group fight has multiple of the above. Not even factoring in the default scourge spamming aoe condi/relic on point.

 

Go sides and ofc, bladesworns, or thieves than cannot be caught = you take all the risk.

 

Im not against condi at all but cmon man, this is so kittening brainded damage. Up the clenses or something..

Edited November 14, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Gotejjeken.1267]

So...all specs besides ele? As you can build rev for condi too--so what, we just need to give ele a condi spec and then your fine because everyone has a condi build?  

[Eddie.9143]

I'm not mad about condi specs, but they should give certain classes the tools to deal with modern condi vomit. 

[Flowki.7194]

46 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

So...all specs besides ele? As you can build rev for condi too--so what, we just need to give ele a condi spec and then your fine because everyone has a condi build?  

I play core rev, demon/vent, which is basically offensive support through CC+healing+condi pressure, you wanne compare that to the specs in the OP? as if I havent played them. I even took some time last week to play specter, spam 3 for constant immob/mulltiple condi/queen procs. Meta worthy gameplay. I was giggling like a little girl when people blew their 1 condi clense, and I just spam 3 again, as if nothing happened.

 

Since you assumed, ele condi had/has 2 clear downsides. 1. Pressure the ele out of fire attunement and its dmg tanks 2. its damage was/is slower to ramp up, and is much easier to clense as there are mostly only 2 types. Again on specter, they clense my dmg, GIGGLE > 33333 for immob/condi -83% healing. Oh I forget, immob and -83% healing? its also unblockable. Cmon mate, don't compare this kitten.. didn't even talk about the other utility yet.

 

I don't have an issue with decent skilled condi builds, but why would you defend the brainded ones reaching good/great/meta status?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Cause literally how are core guard (of any kind) and condi ranger specs taking you out?

Immob on ranger I'm super confused about as they (literally) deleted Ancient Seeds and took the immob off Prelude Lash--so your best immobs are now on pets that can't hit anything.  I guess there's Entangle but...how many ways can someone get out of that again?

Anyway, I digress, because I still don't know how you die to core guard without being +1'd or literally standing there on top of them and on fire actively refusing to use cleanses.  

But I agree with specter, mes, and even necro (reaper is crazy right now and scourge is definition of 1 button condi bunker)--but the others?

Zerker and mech seem kind of middle of the road as well, like if they are tipping the balance the comp on your team is probably already bad.  Maybe it's just me being super embarassed to ever die to a mech because it has all the problems of ranger pet AI with not a ton of upsides.  

Edited November 14, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Flowki.7194]

21 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Cause literally how are core guard condi and condi ranger specs taking you out?

Immob on ranger I'm super confused about as they (literally) deleted Ancient Seeds and took the immob off Prelude Lash--so your best immobs are now on pets that can't hit anything. 

Anyway, I digress, because I still don't know how you die to core guard without being +1'd or literally standing there on top of them and on fire actively refusing to use cleanses.  

But I agree with specter, mes, and even necro (reaper is crazy and scourge is definition of 1 button condi bunker)--but the others?

Zerker and mech seem kind of middle of the road as well, like if they are tipping the balance the comp on your team is probably already bad.  

How does any spec die to condi zerker? Its as if we are forced to get on points to win games. Stop applying bs logic when you know in the reality of the game, the more toxic specs on one team, the less chance to avoid dying by one of the toxic mechanics in a group fight or side node. Unless youre just a back capping DD thief avoiding anything with a heartbeat.

 

Druid immob spam, some rangers run immob also. Its the combination, not just 1 single spec.. the mix of MULTIPLE toxic condi specs. Take specter, I can litterally spam you with immob -83% healing. If you clense that, great.. I can spam it again OR you then get hit with a zeker/druid/ or W/E. Then add in a condi mech, I can jump on a crate or something, but then I can't LOS the power chrono/LB or w/e, so what? take kitten mech condi spam, or take chrono burst? or just run away? becuase mech? high skill area denial right there.

 

Btw I played the untamed d/d - staff build around the time SB was op, its very simple to play, does good damage, and has more than enough mobility to stick with/escape a number of specs. Why is it a suprise to kill/die to that?

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[shion.2084]

46 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Cause literally how are core guard (of any kind) and condi ranger specs taking you out?

Immob on ranger I'm super confused about as they (literally) deleted Ancient Seeds and took the immob off Prelude Lash--so your best immobs are now on pets that can't hit anything.  I guess there's Entangle but...how many ways can someone get out of that again?

Anyway, I digress, because I still don't know how you die to core guard without being +1'd or literally standing there on top of them and on fire actively refusing to use cleanses.  

But I agree with specter, mes, and even necro (reaper is crazy right now and scourge is definition of 1 button condi bunker)--but the others?

Zerker and mech seem kind of middle of the road as well, like if they are tipping the balance the comp on your team is probably already bad.  Maybe it's just me being super embarassed to ever die to a mech because it has all the problems of ranger pet AI with not a ton of upsides.  

You play buckets on core guard... then come talk to me 🙂

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Condi zerker, specter, core condi thief, multiple ranger condi/immob specs, core gaurd condi, condi mech, condi mesmers.

dont forget tempest, reaper, scourge, cata

Edited November 15, 2023 by Paradoxoglanis.1904

[Waffles.5632]

give more access to cleanses, ty anet.

Many condi cleanses are still old school with 1 or 2 condi cleanse despite many specs getting free condi's on their auto now. These condi cleanses should be updated to clear 3, 4, or even 5 condi's, and that would go a long way to deal with the current condi oppression IMO.

[Sweetbread.3678]

The condition/boon system in general is just trash all the way down to the core and has needed a full rework for years. It's way too binary and has 0 consistency; there's only full cleanses/strips with no way to clear a certain # of stacks of a condition/boon while leaving the rest, no way to spot target specific conditions/boons outside of passive traits/gear, and wildly inconsistent power levels between the different effects (Why does Might ramp up over time but Regen, Prot, Fury, etc. don't?  Why is Chill so ludicrously strong? Why do power builds have an extra debuff to deal with through Weakness?).  The binary full cleanses are the main problem point in this situation; only having full cleanses makes condi duration an essentially worthless stat in pvp, because odds are that any condition will just get full cleared before it's duration runs out anyway. So to deal with full cleanse spam,  condi damage either has to tuned to deal absurd burst levels in the small window it's up (which is just such an incredibly dumb place for a game's damage-over-time mechanic to be) or all condi skills/traits have to be absurdly bloated with free cover conditions to soak up the all of that full cleanse spam (which then prompts more cleanse spam being introduced...). It's just a super dumb unending arms race between two brain dead spam mechanics because the system has 0 actual nuance or purposeful interaction.

We all know that fixing any of those core problems will literally never happen, but hopefully they can at least chill out with constantly loading up skills and proc traits with multiple free cover conditions. Keep the potential max spread sure, but at least make that kitten require intentionally layering them by attaching them to different non-instant skills (so that there's an actual counterplay window to spot remove an immob or something, even if it is a microscopically tiny one) that require an actual, purposeful input order instead of just having it all be vomited out at once by simply rolling one's face across the keyboard, or, even worse (somehow that's possible), just endlessly auto-proccing from traits ala Reaper. 

[Spellhunter.9675]

10 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

How does any spec die to condi zerker? Its as if we are forced to get on points to win games.

Fight on point guys.
I can see now how you are dying to condi guard.

[Shagie.7612]

it'll happen the same time they tone down the equally low skill button spam out of power specs lol
the amount of free passive damage that comes out of half the specs in the game is awful

anyways the way condis and direct damage worked in pvp was better in gw1 and can't be replicated here

Edited November 15, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Endorphin.9147]

14 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

I'm not mad about condi specs, but they should give certain classes the tools to deal with modern condi vomit. 

They do...

[Sahne.6950]

15 minutes ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

They do...

some specs simply dont have these tools...  

Try running Renegade into any condibuild for example.    You need to run salvation... but then you are doing wet noodledmg.

Vindi can afford to slot salvation for example, simply because it holds enough damagemodifiers to still deal relevant damage.  AND it has baked in Cleanse ontop of that, so you arent even forced to run salvation in the first place.

Things like that is prolly what hes talking about.   Some specs simply cant keep up. They are completly gatekept by the sheer existance of condivomit.

So they need some baked in Cleanse similar to what Weaver will receive next patch.    a simple cleanse slapped ontop of some Trait would already help a ton.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Spellhunter.9675]

59 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

some specs simply dont have these tools...  

Try running Renegade into any condibuild for example.    You need to run salvation... but then you are doing wet noodledmg.

Vindi can afford to slot salvation for example, simply because it holds enough damagemodifiers to still deal relevant damage.  AND it has baked in Cleanse ontop of that, so you arent even forced to run salvation in the first place.

Things like that is prolly what hes talking about.   Some specs simply cant keep up. They are completly gatekept by the sheer existance of condivomit.

So they need some baked in Cleanse similar to what Weaver will receive next patch.    a simple cleanse slapped ontop of some Trait would already help a ton.

I'm so glad I don't need tools to deal with power damage and can just use pve build for max damage.

[Flowki.7194]

18 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

dont forget tempest, reaper, scourge, cata

I mentioned necro in the OP, necro spamming point is litterally so DEFAULT, that mentioning it is simply a formality. Tempest and cata are not issues when it comes to condi, read the post below, understand it, then understand that ele in general, will only hit you with slower ramp up condi of two types. Immob/bleed from tempest is easily avoided (earth overload), and is a poor way of ''masking'' damage. Not to mention, being in earth overload means you are not in fire, where the main damage is. You wanne actually learn about these specs before you talk bs? I've played all of the things I am critising. I am unbias, I WANT to play more specs.. but refuse to play specs (long term) that stink of low effort/risk for decent/high reward. Thats why I am mostly on core rev as stated in another post, it is engaging enough, risky enough, and rewarding enough so that if you lose to me, you litterally got hit by multiple abilitys, multiple CC, and my condi finally downed you. Thats how condi is suppose to work. Post below again hits it perfectly, condi bombs now rivaling power burst specs, yet the condi specs are not taking the hit to sustain like power builds do, and are doing the damage across less buttons. Hillarious levels of bs game design.

 

Why don't you go and try a power build like ele, herald, vindi, hollow, see what is required to do damage while not getting steamrolled. You obviously never have played anything like that, or you wouldnt be commenting how you do.

13 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

The condition/boon system in general is just trash all the way down to the core and has needed a full rework for years. It's way too binary and has 0 consistency; there's only full cleanses/strips with no way to clear a certain # of stacks of a condition/boon while leaving the rest, no way to spot target specific conditions/boons outside of passive traits/gear, and wildly inconsistent power levels between the different effects (Why does Might ramp up over time but Regen, Prot, Fury, etc. don't?  Why is Chill so ludicrously strong? Why do power builds have an extra debuff to deal with through Weakness?).  The binary full cleanses are the main problem point in this situation; only having full cleanses makes condi duration an essentially worthless stat in pvp, because odds are that any condition will just get full cleared before it's duration runs out anyway. So to deal with full cleanse spam,  condi damage either has to tuned to deal absurd burst levels in the small window it's up (which is just such an incredibly dumb place for a game's damage-over-time mechanic to be) or all condi skills/traits have to be absurdly bloated with free cover conditions to soak up the all of that full cleanse spam (which then prompts more cleanse spam being introduced...). It's just a super dumb unending arms race between two brain dead spam mechanics because the system has 0 actual nuance or purposeful interaction.

We all know that fixing any of those core problems will literally never happen, but hopefully they can at least chill out with constantly loading up skills and proc traits with multiple free cover conditions. Keep the potential max spread sure, but at least make that kitten require intentionally layering them by attaching them to different non-instant skills (so that there's an actual counterplay window to spot remove an immob or something, even if it is a microscopically tiny one) that require an actual, purposeful input order instead of just having it all be vomited out at once by simply rolling one's face across the keyboard, or, even worse (somehow that's possible), just endlessly auto-proccing from traits ala Reaper. 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Reduce condi damage by a lot% and duration by a lot too,  either x precision or power  stats buffs condi damage to the current value, and expertise the same, this would require investiment in 3 stats to deal competent damage, same as power builds.
At least this way there wouldn't be more condi tanks.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

47 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Why don't you go and try a power build like ele, herald, vindi, hollow, see what is required to do damage while not getting steamrolled. You obviously never have played anything like that, or you wouldnt be commenting how you do.

I literally only play ele anymore lol

[Flowki.7194]

9 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Fight on point guys.
I can see now how you are dying to condi guard.

Assumptions.

 

But do go on and explain/justify why you think low effort condi specs should be able to deny point contesting?

 

[Flowki.7194]

2 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

I literally only play ele anymore lol

So then you don't even understand the class you play? to put ele condi in the same boat as condi bombs. Thats actually worse than I thought.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Eddie.9143]

6 hours ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

They do...

lets take herald for example. if you want condi cleanse you're forced into these few things.

- choosing between condi cleanse or stability w/ invocation

- taking salvation over devastation, so having no damage.

- taking shield trait AND shield, making you lose facet heals, and also losing sword offhand. 

- dragon stance on herald has 0 condi cleanse, and you cannot trait in any way to add some

- assassin stance has 1 ability that cleanses 3 non-damaging movement condis, at the cost of 40 energy LOL - you cannot trait in any way to add more

 

this does not work vs modern condi reaper. they have 5 cc's, a 2nd HP bar, and they vomit condis. Yes I KNOW bad matchups exist, but none should be that lopsided when both are specced for damage. 

[snowaron.3420]

Condi class lets ppl think it annoying cause it often made huge damage with many debuffs like thief scepter 3(its insane just a skill have kite/immobi/slow/high damage), can just spam while 1v1. if you are playing some balanced build then u find you have no way to deal it cause he can spam but your condition cleanses way only 1 or 2, like a skill that immediately cleanses with xxS cooldown, and changing weapon just cleanses 1.
So people really need resistance to counter it, every class should have its way of getting resistance, or have a relic that can deal condibomb better, like get regeneration when be immobi or exceed 4 condition you have (cooldown more than 15s or it unbalanced)

[Sereath.1428]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

some specs simply dont have these tools...  

Try running Renegade into any condibuild for example.    You need to run salvation... but then you are doing wet noodledmg.

Vindi can afford to slot salvation for example, simply because it holds enough damagemodifiers to still deal relevant damage.  AND it has baked in Cleanse ontop of that, so you arent even forced to run salvation in the first place.

Things like that is prolly what hes talking about.   Some specs simply cant keep up. They are completly gatekept by the sheer existance of condivomit.

So they need some baked in Cleanse similar to what Weaver will receive next patch.    a simple cleanse slapped ontop of some Trait would already help a ton.

 

3 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

lets take herald for example. if you want condi cleanse you're forced into these few things.

- choosing between condi cleanse or stability w/ invocation

- taking salvation over devastation, so having no damage.

- taking shield trait AND shield, making you lose facet heals, and also losing sword offhand. 

- dragon stance on herald has 0 condi cleanse, and you cannot trait in any way to add some

- assassin stance has 1 ability that cleanses 3 non-damaging movement condis, at the cost of 40 energy LOL - you cannot trait in any way to add more

 

this does not work vs modern condi reaper. they have 5 cc's, a 2nd HP bar, and they vomit condis. Yes I KNOW bad matchups exist, but none should be that lopsided when both are specced for damage. 

I mean yeah, it's what I've been saying, Revenant builds have been kind of unplayable without Salvation for a while now.

Vindicator can in fact get away without Salvation because of Tree Song and its damage modifiers, but even then, most players that want to be successful still choose to run Salvation over Devastation, the constant barrage of conditions and vomit all over the ground is just way too much. And even then, Vindicator is still not great, which is crazy.

And Herald just can't afford the damage loss of not taking Devastation. Another reason why it has been forced to take staff forever, lack of cleanse (makes it impossible to run more fun things such as swords + greatsword).
The resistance from Devastation is simply not enough.

I can imagine it's the same for some other specs.

Quote

the constant barrage of conditions and vomit all over the ground is just way too much.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

 

I mean yeah, it's what I've been saying, Revenant builds have been kind of unplayable without Salvation for a while now.

Vindicator can in fact get away without Salvation because of Tree Song and its damage modifiers, but even then, most players that want to be successful still choose to run Salvation over Devastation, the constant barrage of conditions and vomit all over the ground is just way too much.

And Herald just can't afford the damage loss of not taking Devastation. Another reason why it has been forced to take staff forever, lack of cleanse (makes it impossible to run more fun things such as swords + greatsword).
The resistance from Devastation is simply not enough.

I can imagine it's the same for some other specs.

On any itteration of rev support I can't keep up with the shear amount of condi spam, and its not like it has bad clense. Scourge+cerus, specter, zerker, mesmer, condi rangers. If there are two or three of such specs in a group fights (which is normal now) they basically own that space, for minimal effort. You then have to play like a scrapper/FA ele kiting/los abusing between clense CDs, which is pretty fking rediculous when specifically speced to help contest. Tempest wouldnt keep up with this either, its staff clense build is static af, and then also leaves you wide open to power burst, which isnt great given the amount of willbenders now. All this is really doing is polarising the game into condi bomb builds or mobility power burst like scrapper/hollow/glass ele. Then throw in some random core gaurd block spam, or scourge foot spam just to make things that little more kitten. Hats off to anybody playing power herald around all that bs.

 

I don't actually mind that some specs will have the advantedge on point contesting, forcing other specs off.. but kitten it should take some effort to achieve.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[oujiboardspamname.1932]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

On any itteration of rev support I can't keep up with the shear amount of condi spam, and its not like it has bad clense. Scourge+cerus, specter, zerker, mesmer, condi rangers. If there are two or three of such specs in a group fights (which is normal now) they basically own that space, for minimal effort. You then have to play like a scrapper/FA ele kiting/los abusing between clense CDs, which is pretty fking rediculous when specifically speced to help contest. Tempest wouldnt keep up with this either, its staff clense build is static af, and then also leaves you wide open to power burst, which isnt great given the amount of willbenders now. All this is really doing is polarising the game into condi bomb builds or mobility power burst like scrapper/hollow/glass ele. Then throw in some random core gaurd block spam, or scourge foot spam just to make things that little more kitten. Hats off to anybody playing power herald around all that bs.

 

I don't actually mind that some specs will have the advantedge on point contesting, forcing other specs off.. but kitten it should take some effort to achieve.

 

 

I can assure you no one is playing prev. It died a few seasons back, extreme skill ceiling and incredibly fragile, no reason to hop on it.