Some of the dialog in SotO is...

[Zera.9435]

contrived, to say the least.

"The last few days have been... taxing" (every time you start the Lyhr escort in Amnytas)

"Supplies are... dismal."  (Every time you waypoint to Bastion of the Obscure)

"The Kryptis are... organized." (Every time you do story and are first introduced to the Kryptis)

"The situation is... tense." (Every time you waypoint to Beacon of the Ages)

Not sure if anyone else has noticed, but this expansion has been a little... heavy-handed with the use of ellipses or other brief pauses in some of the NPC dialog. I get that the purpose is to have a sort of 'pause for dramatic effect', but when it is overused it loses its meaning. It's not really reflective of a typical day-to-day manner of speaking, and it makes the dialog feel forced and less believable. To me, that whole manner of speaking is a sort of veiled attempt to sound smart, as if trying to pretend that your vocabulary is so extensive that you have to stop mid-sentence to think of any other word besides the very first word that comes to mind to fit the context. What's wrong with simply saying "Supplies are limited." with no pause to think of a 'better' or 'less commonly used' word?

This is just a little constructive criticism/feedback for the writing team. Ellipses and pauses for dramatic effect are supposed to be used... rarely, if ever.

[Vayne.8563]

It's a lot easier to be over used in a book which is linear. I'm relatively sure it's much easier to notice then. I've edited professionally, I'm teleporting around all the time and I didn't notice in. In a linear book I probably would have. Seems like a weird complaint, considering those things don't usually all happen in a linear fashion anyway. You're jumping around and seeing a single character at a specific point.

It's a great observation and I won't be able to unsee it now, but I'm not sure it makes any real difference at all.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Vayne.8563

[Surelia.2651]

2 hours ago, Zera.9435 said:

contrived, to say the least.

"The last few days have been... taxing" (every time you start the Lyhr escort in Amnytas)

"Supplies are... dismal."  (Every time you waypoint to Bastion of the Obscure)

"The Kryptis are... organized." (Every time you do story and are first introduced to the Kryptis)

"The situation is... tense." (Every time you waypoint to Beacon of the Ages)

Not sure if anyone else has noticed, but this expansion has been a little... heavy-handed with the use of ellipses or other brief pauses in some of the NPC dialog. I get that the purpose is to have a sort of 'pause for dramatic effect', but when it is overused it loses its meaning. It's not really reflective of a typical day-to-day manner of speaking, and it makes the dialog feel forced and less believable. To me, that whole manner of speaking is a sort of veiled attempt to sound smart, as if trying to pretend that your vocabulary is so extensive that you have to stop mid-sentence to think of any other word besides the very first word that comes to mind to fit the context. What's wrong with simply saying "Supplies are limited." with no pause to think of a 'better' or 'less commonly used' word?

This is just a little constructive criticism/feedback for the writing team. Ellipses and pauses for dramatic effect are supposed to be used... rarely, if ever.

Not that I entirely disagree, but your example in particular: "supplies are limited," does have a completely different meaning than saying "supplies are dismal"  - as in, the former just says you don't have many options, whereas the latter says that what you actually have is disastrous  -- which could be an even worse situation than having few options altogether.   I don't see anything wrong with using more nuanced words that mean exactly (or as close to exactly as possible) what is intended to be conveyed.  

The pauses in how these words are delivered in the voice over is another issue entirely, apart from the writing itself.  With Peitha, I think it adds to her persona of a creature who has some feeling for her companions and makes it also clear she herself is not of their world.

[Omega.6801]

I have also ... noticed. My guess it's less to make the characters sound smart but alien. Something along the line of  "Oh our whacky world of wizzardry/dastardly domain of demons is so different from Tyria.". A bit less of it would have been apreciated, especially in dialogue you hear very often.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Peitha needs to lay off the kryptis made burgers.

[Ashen.2907]

Any speech quirk, unless intended to represent a trait (such as an accent associated with a specific region) should be used sparingly to avoid becoming cringeworthy. I love Star Trek TOS, but there is a reason many have made fun of Shatner's delivery for over half a century.

[Vayne.8563]

4 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Any speech quirk, unless intended to represent a trait (such as an accent associated with a specific region) should be used sparingly to avoid becoming cringeworthy. I love Star Trek TOS, but there is a reason many have made fun of Shatner's delivery for over half a century.

Shatner's delivery, in a lot of cases, wasn't in the script. Shatner was originally a Shakespearian actor and he had cut his teeth on stage acting, which is quite different to television acting. You have to be able to have your facial expressions seen clearly even in the cheap seats, so stage performers that make the transition to television often over act. Professional wrestlers like in the WWE do the same thing, because they're virtually always performing for a live audience.  It doesn't make it less funny, it's just interesting.

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Shatner's delivery, in a lot of cases, wasn't in the script. Shatner was originally a Shakespearian actor and he had cut his teeth on stage acting, which is quite different to television acting. You have to be able to have your facial expressions seen clearly even in the cheap seats, so stage performers that make the transition to television often over act. Professional wrestlers like in the WWE do the same thing, because they're virtually always performing for a live audience.  It doesn't make it less funny, it's just interesting.

Absolutely.

Then again delivery is often not in the script, giving the actor an additional means of adding to a scene.

You see similar things when a musical theater singer transitions to become a recording artist.

[Prophet of Flames.2783]

5 hours ago, Zera.9435 said:

"The Kryptis are... organized." (Every time you do story and are first introduced to the Kryptis)

Wait, is your complaint here actually that the story mission has this dialogue every time you do the same mission?
Of course it has, it's only got one option, it's a story mission. You're not supposed to repeat it again and again and expect something different.

[Vayne.8563]

11 minutes ago, Prophet of Flames.2783 said:

Wait, is your complaint here actually that the story mission has this dialogue every time you do the same mission?
Of course it has, it's only got one option, it's a story mission. You're not supposed to repeat it again and again and expect something different.

He's talking about the overuse of the ellipses which is a three dots in a row.  As an editor I can tell you that most authors I've worked with have specific weaknesses. Things they repeat over and over again. When I started writing, my editor called editing my work performing a commaectomy because all he did was remove unnecessary commas. I find I still overuse commas have to remove them myself.

In addition authors often have problem words that they use too often, that have to be removed either while being edited or during self editing.

It's entirely possible the writer who was in charge of writing the ambient dialogue for Soto....tended to use...the ellipse....to often when they were trying to...get the pause in the dialogue. Overused the ellipse...is kind of noticeable.

[Prophet of Flames.2783]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

He's talking about the overuse of the ellipses which is a three dots in a row.  As an editor I can tell you that most authors I've worked with have specific weaknesses. Things they repeat over and over again. When I started writing, my editor called editing my work performing a commaectomy because all he did was remove unnecessary commas. I find I still overuse commas have to remove them myself.

In addition authors often have problem words that they use too often, that have to be removed either while being edited or during self editing.

It's entirely possible the writer who was in charge of writing the ambient dialogue for Soto....tended to use...the ellipse....to often when they were trying to...get the pause in the dialogue. Overused the ellipse...is kind of noticeable.

I have written for the creative industry for many years, you don't have to explain this to me.
The point is the 'every time you do the story' part, like it's somehow an argument in his case that it happens *every time*. But of course it does, it's not going to get different dialogue. It's not supposed to.

[Vayne.8563]

5 minutes ago, Prophet of Flames.2783 said:

I have written for the creative industry for many years, you don't have to explain this to me.
The point is the 'every time you do the story' part, like it's somehow an argument in his case that it happens *every time*. But of course it does, it's not going to get different dialogue. It's not supposed to.

But he's not even talking about story,. he's talking about open world.  Only one of his examples was in story, three of them occur at waypoints. It's a minor thing anyway, and it doesn't matter much, but it's not story he's complaining about. It's the overuse of ellipses more generally.

[Prophet of Flames.2783]

24 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But he's not even talking about story,. he's talking about open world.  Only one of his examples was in story, three of them occur at waypoints. It's a minor thing anyway, and it doesn't matter much, but it's not story he's complaining about. It's the overuse of ellipses more generally.

Which is exactly why I ask him why that line is included to try to make his point, as it doesn't support his point.
So he is talking about story because he included this example.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

2 hours ago, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

Peitha needs to lay off the kryptis made burgers.

HOW DARE YOU! 😠

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

players kept complaining about "marvel writing" (which was actually just how stuff was written prior to the 2000s, aka "cringe") which was fast-paced, direct and often humerous even in the face of danger, so in this expansion they replaced the dialogue with super-serious stuff that properly relays the gravity of the situation.

 

the problem is that's not how people behave in real life in bad situations (we'd collapse in on ourselves if we did, its very bad for your mental and emotional health to spiral into it), so it seems overly dramatic, sometimes exhausting and even uncanny at times.

 

but don't worry..i'm sure they'll..fix it eventually..with the next expansion..when they realise it was a mistake..to talk like everyone is depressed.

Edited November 25, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Zera.9435]

15 hours ago, Prophet of Flames.2783 said:

Which is exactly why I ask him why that line is included to try to make his point, as it doesn't support his point.
So he is talking about story because he included this example.

I included it for the purpose of pointing out that the issue of overusing ellipses is not limited to open world content but also in story. The dialog in the expansion as a whole has the issue. I'm replaying story because my other characters can't access the new area without doing story. That particular example was just the very first one. There is another example a little later after you fight Dagda where the player character remarks about how Dagda is rough around the edges and Frode says "Dagda is..." and then Uenno says "... a mother to us all." Frode could have easily simply said "Dagda is very skeptical and cautious around strangers", but instead he does the unnecessary pause, causing Uenno to break the forced awkward pause. It happens a little too often in the expansion.
 

This feeling you are getting about how 'weirdly' I wrote that part of my post is analogous to how I feel about the overuse of ellipses and dramatic pauses.

At no point did I say that I expect the story dialog to be different with each play through. It was more me highlighting that if you do a replay, you will notice the point I'm making: too many ellipses and unnecessary 'dramatic pauses' to the point that it is either comical or unnatural because that is not how people talk in general day-to-day life. I do like that other guy's example of how maybe they just 'talk funny' because they are hapless wizards that are a little detached from the rest of Tyrian daily life.

[Zera.9435]

18 hours ago, Surelia.2651 said:

Not that I entirely disagree, but your example in particular: "supplies are limited," does have a completely different meaning than saying "supplies are dismal"  - as in, the former just says you don't have many options, whereas the latter says that what you actually have is disastrous  -- which could be an even worse situation than having few options altogether.   I don't see anything wrong with using more nuanced words that mean exactly (or as close to exactly as possible) what is intended to be conveyed. 

I see your point, but again the pause is unnecessary.  The NPC could have easily said "Supplies are dismal." without the pause. This post is not about particular word use/meaning, but about the overuse of those pauses.

[Surelia.2651]

13 minutes ago, Zera.9435 said:

I see your point, but again the pause is unnecessary.  The NPC could have easily said "Supplies are dismal." without the pause. This post is not about particular word use/meaning, but about the overuse of those pauses.

I did address that.  Pauses are a separate issue from the choice of adjectives.  Incidentally, you don't HAVE to run other characters through the story just to get them there.  I have done the story on one of mine, but have since run through with a bunch of my alts and none have done the story.  I just used the portal stone to get them to the Wizards Tower and done. 🙂

Edited November 25, 2023 by Surelia.2651

[Zera.9435]

1 minute ago, Surelia.2651 said:

I did address that.  Pauses are a separate issue from the choice of adjectives.  Incidentally, you don't HAVE to run other characters through the story just to get them there.  I have done the story on one of mine, but have since run through with a bunch of my alts and none have done the story.  I just used the portal stone to get them to the Wizards Tower and done. 🙂

Yes, but you can't get to Inner Nayos that way.

[Surelia.2651]

3 minutes ago, Zera.9435 said:

Yes, but you can't get to Inner Nayos that way.

I have gotten alts to Inner Nayos without the story.  Just join a meta run in group finder and port to leader.  Done.

[Zera.9435]

1 minute ago, Surelia.2651 said:

I have gotten alts to Inner Nayos without the story.  Just join a meta run in group finder and port to leader.  Done.

I don't want to rely on other players/gem store items to access a map. I just really hate relying on others.

[Surelia.2651]

2 minutes ago, Zera.9435 said:

I don't want to rely on other players/gem store items to access a map. I just really hate relying on others.

I don't see it as relying on others - I take my alts there to contribute to the meta not to just get a free ride to the zone?  I also have a ton of the port to friend stones gathering dust in my vault, gotten from years of birthday gifts ---  not bought in the store. 

[Zera.9435]

8 minutes ago, Surelia.2651 said:

I don't see it as relying on others - I take my alts there to contribute to the meta not to just get a free ride to the zone?  I also have a ton of the port to friend stones gathering dust in my vault, gotten from years of birthday gifts ---  not bought in the store. 

I'm aware of the ease of getting the item and most people don't care if I use them as glorified taxis. The problem is I shouldn't have to rely on a 'work around' to access the new map without doing story. Let's just leave it here because we're derailing the original topic. There are too many unnecessary pauses in the expansion's NPC dialog.

[Ashantara.8731]

22 hours ago, Zera.9435 said:

contrived, to say the least.

"The last few days have been... taxing" (every time you start the Lyhr escort in Amnytas)

"Supplies are... dismal."  (Every time you waypoint to Bastion of the Obscure)

"The Kryptis are... organized." (Every time you do story and are first introduced to the Kryptis)

"The situation is... tense." (Every time you waypoint to Beacon of the Ages)

Not sure if anyone else has noticed, but this expansion has been a little... heavy-handed with the use of ellipses or other brief pauses in some of the NPC dialog. I get that the purpose is to have a sort of 'pause for dramatic effect', but when it is overused it loses its meaning. It's not really reflective of a typical day-to-day manner of speaking, and it makes the dialog feel forced and less believable. To me, that whole manner of speaking is a sort of veiled attempt to sound smart, as if trying to pretend that your vocabulary is so extensive that you have to stop mid-sentence to think of any other word besides the very first word that comes to mind to fit the context. What's wrong with simply saying "Supplies are limited." with no pause to think of a 'better' or 'less commonly used' word?

This is just a little constructive criticism/feedback for the writing team. Ellipses and pauses for dramatic effect are supposed to be used... rarely, if ever.

I find the quality of dialogue in SotO an improvement, to be honest. Almost all dialogue after the core campaign had characters sound like dimwits. It is a fresh breeze that now NPCs (and our character) seem to have an IQ above 100. 😄

As for the pauses, I agree: the dramatic-effect rhetoric style is being overused. (Like Peitha, who still talks too slowly...)

Edited November 25, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Doggie.3184]

Whenever Peithra talks too much I just kinda zone out and it goes in one ear and out other. The low reverbing bass or whaterer they did to it is just hard to hear and pay attention to.