Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Thief

[kidbuu.4071]

Make axe provide ground targeting and the stealth attack unblockable ( only the i"nitial "stealth attack)

Increase the velocity of axe 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

11 hours ago, BadSanta.6527 said:

a gew things about axe that i have tried so far 

first - its not hybrid wepon , if you want to make the most of it use condi no power 

second- boy i wish it was melle and not ranger 

third - spining whells kind of nice in consept but the aplication is not good , the should have dmg or something rather just keep swinging 

last - thief is despert for new off hand , could have been nice to get support of hand with it like axe support or something 

people would just dip their big toe in and reveal us with minimal damage if the whirls did damage

[nopoet.2960]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:35 AM, Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Thief's axe #3 does nothing by itself which makes it rather useless. It forces me to use skill #1 and #2 before I can use skill #3 -- what? The best thing about GW2's combat is it doesn't dictates how I play my profession and I'm sure the Devs won't start now -- right? Right?!

This has to be addressed.  There's no other weapon skill in the game that is fully dependent on using another weapon skill to function.  It's like they forgot #3 is a dual wield skill.  At the very minimum 3 should shoot or stab if no axes are present.  We know it was just an oversight thought Anet.  It's not like you created axes for another class then gave them to thief at the last minute.

[Matt H.6142]

Too much travel distance on the axes. and you feel like you need to shotgun skill 2, which makes it worse, and then they take a long time on the return trip.

Even to shotgun skill 2 didn't feel impactful.  The damage must be all in the condis, because somewhere between skill 2 and 3, basic enemies had lost 75% of their health.

[Anthony.8056]

I honestly think they should have been given an off hand axe to complement the main hand axe. It feels very mesmer to me or what mesmer axe should have been. 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Hmm... honestly. This would feel better as an offhand weapon than a main hand. Which would give the user an interesting mix between ranged and melee.

As it stands, I can't see this being a good mainhand. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. But there's still a number of issues that needs to get ironed out.

The first one I am noticing as that the axes feels extremely sluggish to use. The Axes travel very slowly, so an enemy pacing to the left an actually avoid getting struck by the axe about midway into its range. Which makes this worse for pvp, as players are regularly circling or moving about. And using the skills feels extremely slow for almost no reason. Or maybe it was balanced with the expectation of quickness? At which case... why? It's a thief. They need to be fast because their weapon skills do not offer them much, so if it takes almost a full second to throw three axes, or to call them back. (giving players ample time to interrupt or dodge), why would I use this weapon versus rifle, double pistol, or bows which do not offer the same weakness?

The second note is the recall. These axes misses pretty easily still. So maybe increase their hitbox size to a bit. But I would also say add some stronger visuals on their recall to make them look more impactful, and to give players a visual warning those axes are coming.

I am pleasantly surprised that it has piercing on all of its attacks. But I feel like the evasion on three isn't really helpful. You're using this as a burst or a form of engage. But a thief would typically only do so when they know they can't be punished for suddenly diving onto someone. And using this reflexively doesn't make any sense, because it does have a bit of spin up time.

I do not care for the malicious attack. This feels like a waste of my time, and that it would punish me. I get no benefit from this unless I am a condi build on a weapon that splits condi and power. Why not give this weapon some needed CC? You have an explosion. Why not give the explosion a knock back?

It's damage also isn't impressive. Which is... odd. Because it does seem like other weapons are hurting a lot more with their weapon skills while having increased functionality... while the axes themselves do not actually do anything more than damage.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[draxynnic.3719]

Apart from the obvious, one concern I'd have over the "move axe over to offhand" suggestion is... how many variations of the "recall axes" mechanic would you really want? Currently there's two, and if an offhand comes up next, they'll have to come up with a third. As an offhand, they'd either need to shift the recall to skill 4 or 5 (in which case there'd be only one, and therefore no opportunity to calibrate it to be better with power or conditions) or if they left the recall on skill 3, they'd need to come up with four different variations of it. I'd rather have an offhand that can freely combo with the mainhand in different ways over one that has to come up with a different axe recall skill for four (and possibly more with later releases) different mainhand weapons.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

cosmetically, visually id like to see the axes be carved into the ground like Hareth with Fissure ("Let the jungle swallow you!") - Hareth plunges his axe into the ground, creating fissures that deal high damage and apply bleeding. but have axes dragged into the ground, also giving legendary axes some appeal and use with their own trails of style.

regarding hitting higher up enemies, just let it but have the visual of the path APPEAR on the ground and climb upwards like vines until it reaches target. like this link here on Ayinmaidens video, just slow it down to .25s and youll see the axes. itll appear on the ground like this in video but the projectile is traveling upwards walls until reached IF it could hit otherwise the "fissures" would fall short

 

[BobbyT.7192]

1 nice thing about the axe is it's not depended on a single target like the malice system.  So if your first target dies or runs away, you can just use 3 on another target.

Skill 2 and 1 needs to deal the same damage, or the 3 skills needs to have their own damage coefficient.  We shouldn't be punished damage wise for wanting to build up the axes quickly, that is what initiative is for.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by BobbyT.7192

[The Lag.9742]

Ok i've been testing axe and most of my complains will mirror what everyone here is saying, it feels clunky, slugish sometimes counterintuitive (if the set is midrange why in thehell would you shadowstep towards your enemy it makes no sense) perhaps skill 3 with dagger should do quick stepback or something  with an evasion frame as it recalls the axes but that all i can come up with.

BUT! what really REALLY annoyis me the most is the character animations... is so... i have no words to describe the blandness of it,. visualy is  unengaging and boring to look at, no flair at all! is Spectre all over again, but worst! with specter at least tried to mask the blatant recicled animations with particles effect on top (still think spectre is the worst looking elite , visually clunky unapealing and boring). i really REALLY hope the character animations are being work so what are we looking at are just placeholder animations

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

Hey! On the bright side. Go full Vipers and pull 61k DPS.

[Eddie.9143]

prob the worst weapon of the beta, it does nothing better than what we already have

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

 

[Riot Inducer.8964]

This one is wild, not sure what I expected but magic hover axes was not it. That said, it does seem like a decently strong weapon if you can line the return barrages up right. I played with a condi-deadeye setup for a bit and it was quite fun in pve, not sure how good or bad it'll be in competitive modes.

To offer some critiques:

1. The power damage aspect is a bit limp, especially the stealth attack which does not benefit from power hardly at all.
2. I don't normally comment on the visuals but the axes don't feel very "thiefy" I would prefer if the axes had a more subdued look with red or purple effects instead of the yellow and green.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

6 hours ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

 

100% going to get tuned down lol

[AquaBR.9250]

Axe/Pistol should actually use pistol instead of being a boring conjuration, like shoot the target and make the axes go into it with the bullet.

Now i feel like this should be a hybrid weapon, the auto-attack should be melee to make it unique and diferentiate it from pistol

[AquaBR.9250]

You will need to change the entire physics of projectiles for this thing, when they go down the edges you just lose your combo because it follow the ground down to the walls, a projectile like this should go straight out of the edge and stay midair

[draxynnic.3719]

17 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

prob the worst weapon of the beta, it does nothing better than what we already have

I think it beats ele pistol and engi shortbow, but they don't exactly present high bars.

[Neilug.7935]

Maybe already shared, but:

• The fact it's a ranged weapon kinda suck, especially those reused animations from Ranger Axe.
  
  I would rather it being a mixed, with a melee auto attack on, where the combo 3 would actually throw a spinning axe that pierce.
  
  #2 skill should still be ranged, but I hope it completely get reworked. Right now being the exact same equivalent of Ranger suck and make it heavily boring. It should still be the main spinning axe generation.
  
  That idea to have a weapon where you actually have to play melee/ranged is interesting. Making it a ranged weapon on AA by default makes it boring to play and safe. Thief game design is not about safe plays.

 

• #3 with dagger off-hand, I am disappointed you can teleport (not behind tho lmao), and then use dagger #5 to go stealth, but piercing axes would reveal you instantly. It should keep you furtive, to allow actual fun combo to do.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Neilug.7935

[FalsePromises.6398]

I think thief axes could be improved in two ways. 

1. Reduce the cast time of 2 down to half second cast. It's way too clunky without quickness, especially for a skill that you need to cast multiple times to build up your 3 skill's damage. The 3 skill could also stand to have an initiative cost reduction or refund with certain axe hit count, since it's useless without any axe stacks and functions off of other resources too. Axe 3 isn't a standalone skill, so don't make it cost as much initiative as one, yeah? 

2. The axe ammo is a cool idea but a problematic iteration. Making them linger in the actual world just opens the weapon up to a horrific slew of positioning, range, and mobility problems. Most prominently, going in close to get all three hits of your axe 2 to land makes them all linger super far away, creating problems for your 3 skill's responsiveness and ability to hit. I think a better way of going about this axe ammo mechanic is to take a page from the mesmer book: make the axes float around YOU instead, akin to virtuoso, and when you cast your 3 skill, summon them around your target to strike inwards after a slight delay, akin to mirage axe ambush skill. This would go MILES in making the weapon more practical and consistent. 

I like the thief axe in concept, it's very interesting. If there was any other thing I'd change, I'd probably give the axes a wider hitbox, to give the weapon a slight cleave identity like other axe iterations in the game (e.g. ranger axes, firebrand axe, mirage axe). 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

I actually like the weapon set in theory, but the recall axes skill needs to aim on your target, or on you if you have no target. I know they probably didn't do that so to avoid making it a 1500 range weapon, but honestly anything short of that and the weaponset is a dead duck in any kind of competitive mode because as it is it's only good at hitting stationary targets. 

Edit: just to make a point: you could triple the damage and make all axes unblockable, but without making axes fly to your target when pressing 3 the weapon would still see no play in competitive. It doesn't matter how hard something hits if it never hits. This isn't an issue that can be fixed by tweaking numbers, the mechanic simply does not work as is. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[paper.6230]

Why is axe a projectile-based, mid-ranged, main-hand weapon to begin with?
The limits of the game engine when it comes to projectiles are well-known after all these years the game has been out. A weapon that fully relies on projectiles is inherently worse. That's why scepter/dagger doesn't see play, and scepter/pistol does. Speaking of scepter, it's the last weapon thief received, and it's mid-ranged, (mostly) projectile-based, and main-hand too. Considering that Thief has had same two off-hand weapons since the release of core game, an off-hand axe would have been a much better investment.

Thoughts on the current design
It's been mostly said by others in this thread, but I'm going to write it anyway:

• projectiles can miss any moving target, and increasing projectile speed might still not be enough (target under swiftness, superspeed, or target about-facing)
• on some terrain axes will go to Narnia and cannot be pulled back
• this is the first Thief weapon that builds damage potential when staying in a place, and drops damage potential when moving away from the place
• this is the first Thief weapon you hardly can burst with (in competitive)
• there is no impactful soft CC in the kit (compare it to scepter/pistol, how it can immobilize before main damage and apply slow, or chill with off-hand dagger)
• there is no hard CC in the kit
• there is no boonrip in the kit
• the only defensive resource is 0.5s evade on #3 (which is there mostly to prevent getting interrupted during 0.5s cast), and the evade is stationary
• there are no other resources that help with survival (no cleanse, block, reflect, shadowstep, leap, blast, or movement skill)
• lack of aforementioned defensive resources doesn't fit the playstyle where you are meant to maintain range and kite
• #3 is not piercing, easy for it to be body-blocked. If cleave is the idea, this doesn't match it. EDIT: my bad, it does pierce, just missing in tooltip
• #3 is clearly telegraphed, easy to evade or block it (more about this below)
• hardly a viable option for Specter

Pointless split between damage types
Condition damage with dagger, power damage with pistol. So if I don't enjoy playing one damage type, and I want maximum potential out of a damage type, I'm locked into playing with a specific off-hand weapon? I find this extremely irritating.

Lack of synergy (especially with off-hand pistol)
With axe/pistol you can't blast, you can't leap, you can't reliably blind. Skill #3 with either off-hand weapon has such a clear tell that every enemy can avoid it as long as their monitor is plugged in. There is nothing on the kit to bait the resources of the enemy. There is nothing on the kit to increase the chances of landing #3, even if the projectiles were faster. Initiative costs are high as well - #3 costs 5 initiative in PvP, #5 costs 6. You're out of initiative almost instantly, all while you're very likely to miss #3, and that's assuming you had enough initiative before. Moreover, using #3 consumes your axe stacks, so it's easy to tell what thief is going to do next in close range: either follow up with #2, or try to stealth with #5.

Suggestions/Ideas for rework
Expanding on the idea of redirectable spinning axes (if you must), to provide defense, axes could spin around Thief, but they could be used offensively, so by throwing them towards target or pulling them back a Thief would exchange defense for damage or vice versa. Optionally, while the axes are spinning around the Thief, they could do cleave damage in melee range. Another idea for defense could be picking the spinning axes up from ground, which would give you an evade frame, just like Mirage's Mirrors. For damage, perhaps you could move spinning axes like Ventari's Tablet.
A simple solution for increasing momentum in current implementation could be to lower the maximum amount of stackable axes, but increase the damage. Alternatively make the autoattack throw multiple axes instead.

As a closing note
For me Thief encompasses movement, speed, timing, high risk and high reward, manipulation of momentum in competitive setting. I don't see it as an annoying mosquito, bullying enemies, I wish it to be a force to be reckoned with. This weapon doesn't feel like Thief to me. It doesn't fit the playstyle and identity. Personally, I dreamed of playing dual axe in melee range, blending in a playstyle of a bruiser. Ranger's dual maces come to mind. I don't expect my vision to match anyone else's, of course.

Anyway, I only hope that whoever has worked on this weapon for Thief, or will be working on any future ones, has "fun to play" and "fun to play against" on top of their priority list.

Edited December 8, 2023 by paper.6230
formatting

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

49 minutes ago, paper.6230 said:

Why is axe a projectile-based, mid-ranged, main-hand weapon to begin with?
The limits of the game engine when it comes to projectiles are well-known after all these years the game has been out. A weapon that fully relies on projectiles is inherently worse. That's why scepter/dagger doesn't see play, and scepter/pistol does. Speaking of scepter, it's the last weapon thief received, and it's mid-ranged, (mostly) projectile-based, and main-hand too. Considering that Thief has had same two off-hand weapons since the release of core game, an off-hand axe would have been a much better investment.

Thoughts on the current design
It's been mostly said by others in this thread, but I'm going to write it anyway:

• projectiles can miss any moving target, and increasing projectile speed might still not be enough (target under swiftness, superspeed, or target about-facing)
• on some terrain axes will go to Narnia and cannot be pulled back
• this is the first Thief weapon that builds damage potential when staying in a place, and drops damage potential when moving away from the place
• this is the first Thief weapon you hardly can burst with (in competitive)
• there is no impactful soft CC in the kit (compare it to scepter/pistol, how it can immobilize before main damage and apply slow, or chill with off-hand dagger)
• there is no hard CC in the kit
• there is no boonrip in the kit
• there is no reflect in the kit
• there are no defensive resources besides 0.5s evade on #3 (which is there mostly to prevent getting interrupted during 0.5s cast), and the evade is stationary
• there are no other resources that help with survival (no cleanse, block, reflect, shadowstep, leap, blast, or movement skill)
• lack of aforementioned defensive resources doesn't fit the playstyle where you are meant to maintain range and kite
• #3 is not piercing, easy for it to be body-blocked. If cleave is the idea, this doesn't match it.
• #3 is clearly telegraphed, easy to evade or block it (more about this below)
• hardly a viable option for Specter

Pointless split between damage types
Condition damage with dagger, power damage with pistol. So if I don't enjoy playing one damage type, and I want maximum potential out of a damage type, I'm locked into playing with a specific off-hand weapon? I find this extremely irritating.

Lack of synergy (especially with off-hand pistol)
With axe/pistol you can't blast, you can't leap, you can't reliably blind. Skill #3 with either off-hand weapon has such a clear tell that every enemy can avoid it as long as their monitor is plugged in. There is nothing on the kit to bait the resources of the enemy. There is nothing on the kit to increase the chances of landing #3, even if the projectiles were faster. Initiative costs are high as well - #3 costs 5 initiative in PvP, #5 costs 6. You're out of initiative almost instantly, all while you're very likely to miss #3, and that's assuming you had enough initiative before. Moreover, using #3 consumes your axe stacks, so it's easy to tell what thief is going to do next in close range: either follow up with #2, or try to stealth with #5.

Suggestions/Ideas for rework
Expanding on the idea of redirectable spinning axes (rather than completely scrapping it), to provide defense, axes could spin around Thief, but they could be used offensively, so by throwing them towards target or pulling them back a Thief would exchange defense for damage or vice versa. Optionally, while the axes are spinning around the Thief, they could do cleave damage in melee range. Another idea for defense could be picking the spinning axes up from ground, which would give you an evade frame, just like Mirage's Mirrors. For damage, perhaps you could move spinning axes like Ventari's Tablet.
A simple solution for increasing momentum in current implementation could be to lower the maximum amount of stackable axes, but increase the damage. Alternatively make the autoattack throw multiple axes instead.

As a closing note
For me Thief encompasses movement, speed, timing, high risk and high reward, manipulation of momentum in competitive setting. I don't see it as an annoying mosquito, bullying enemies, I wish it to be a force to be reckoned with. This weapon doesn't feel like Thief to me. It doesn't fit the playstyle and identity. Personally, I dreamed of playing double axe in melee range, blending in a playstyle of a bruiser. I don't expect my vision to match anyone else's, of course.

Anyway, I only hope that whoever has worked on this weapon for Thief, or will be working any future ones, has "fun to play" and "fun to play against" on top of their priority list.

#3 on both axe sets is piercing because it retains the stationary axes properties where all axes pierce 5 enemies, thus a total of 30 enemies due to 6 max axes

[Eddie.9143]

axe should work like this

axe 2 does what it already does, but on the 3rd press, you make all the axes hit ur opponent, now axe does everything it already does with just 2.

axe/dagger 3 "Poll Crack"  ports behind target, inflicts 2 stacks of confusion for 2 seconds,  1 sec immob and grants 1.5k barrier

axe/pistol 3  "Dull Axe" pulls any spinning axes towards target, and throws a dull axe that does 2 confusion for 3 seconds and dazes for 1/2 second. 

 

 

[Crowe.8159]

My thoughts on thief axes from a wvw roamer:
Pros:
-Axes do really good damage either strike or condition
-The axes when paired with pistol can have a range of 1800 with the initial 900 and then an additional 900 after you press the 3 skill which is really nice when youre trying to chase someone down
Cons:
-Power variant really has no synergy with most builds especially for the stealth skill with the exception of Daredevil using the Bound dodge trait. Without this the only real access to stealth is through using utility skills which takes away from some of the survivability so it was really hard to use as a Deadeye Specter or core thief.
-Axes don't really go up structures well, I was unable to help kill cannons on objectives due to the way the projectiles travel. The only skill that would travel correctly would be the stealth skill.
-The cast time or after cast on the weapon needs a little tuning, it felt really slow compared to other thief weapons it felt like missing my stealth skill with the one second CD with each skill.

-Despite being a projectile based weapon not being able to combo as a projectile is something it shares with scepter making pistol as an offhand a bit underwhelming as well
Overall its a really good weapon and I'm looking forward to any tweaks, I know there are more cons then there are pros but I feel like these are small things that could be changed! I hope this feedback helps out some 🙂

Edited December 4, 2023 by Crowe.8159
Forgot to include a note