They are selling hero points in the gem store now

[Roads.5130]

9 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

It has no single meaning that is generally agreed upon, and it's not even a generational difference of opinion. Nothing written here will convince anyone who already has an opinion. So, I can only reiterate my opinion, which is that the discussion is pointless. 

 

Again, I wholeheartedly agree. As I said on several other replies, my participation on this thread started by replying to a person who was complaining that the game had become P2W thanks to this new addition of HPs on the cash store. What I said and how I said it was specifically directed to that person, but all these other people keep coming and I am more than happy to keep elaborating for the time being, even if it goes nowhere.

[Danikat.8537]

1 hour ago, Elden Arnaas.4870 said:

Honest question:  Was GW2 'pay to win' before the Hero Point Unlock Scroll?  Are we already sliding down that slope, or are we taking that fateful first step?

I think that there are such widely varying opinions on what constitutes 'Pay To Win', that this is going to just go 'round and 'round.   Some people's definitions are much too loose, some are too restrictive.   And few of us seem willing to consider an alternate point of view.

I wonder if this will waste itself on repeatable hero points?(the wiki doesn't mention anything about that)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Hero_Point_Scroll

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hero_challenge#Heroics_Notary

I've bought and spent one of these, and it's totally random as to what HP in what expansion it unlocks.  The WvW version at least seems to let you choose what expansion (or Core) to unlock from.

To actually accomplish something with this, it seems like you'd need to either buy a lot of them or manually unlock most of the Hero Points on that character - using a few scrolls for the difficult/undesirable ones.  Either way it costs you something to properly make use of these.

To me, we already have way point unlocks, and level 80 boosts.  Which I also consider *convenience*.  If that stuff 'makes GW2 pay to win', then it already is by that definition.  How is the Black Lion Hero Point Unlock Scroll any different and/or worse?

To be honest, if people want to get upset about something - loot boxes have been in the game since the beginning.  And other forms of gambling have been in for quite a while.  This is what I'd get upset about.(if I was going to)

The WvW version won't be wasted on repeatable hero points. I'm not sure what's going on behind the scenes to ensure that doesn't happen but you'll always get all the hero points you pay for. I was going to say the nearest you can get to that problem is buying them on a character who has already completed all the hero challenges in that expansion, but apparently if you do that it will refund the proof of heroics back to you. I assume the gem store version is the same.

And yeah, it's going to be expensive or time consuming to make it worthwhile. (Also I think if you're going around the maps collecting all the 'easy' hero points it's probably not much more trouble to get all of them rather than buying completion for the last few.)

The WvW version exists so people who mainly or only play WvW can still get hero points to unlock elite specs without having to spend a bunch of time in PvE, so the fact that it takes time to earn them and which hero points you unlock are random are unlikely to be a problem for them. The gem store version I guess is for people who would rather spend a lot of money than a bit of time to unlock an elite spec.

[Funky.4861]

My first reaction to seeing it in the gemstore was "This is P2W" shortly followed by "Milk the whales with lots of alts". Having read through the posts i've changed my stance somewhat. It all boils down to how you view buying convenience items with RL money (including legendary weapons). Legendary weapons give a slight advantage to their owners over ascended in terms of taking nothing to change their stats (and arguable fashion). Lvl 80 boosts, Wp unlocks and now these HP unlocks are pay-to-not-play; they are instant gratification cash-grabs and in my opinion newb traps. They are all tied to one character and unless you have spare gear in your bank you will have one poorly-equipped char which you think is good to go but soon leaves you wondering where you went wrong as they remove the learn-as-you-play element.

For me, the HP unlocks are an underhanded trick to part people who have fomo/little time to play with their money/gold when all they have to do is join a HP train or ask in map chat for help.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

It's kind of an unsolvable problem - Anet hypes and promotes new content, which is not suitable for new players.(this is legit, they *need* to promote new content)  But now new players want to rush out and do the new content.(especially if they have friends that are already playing, and doing the new content)  But the new content is too difficult for inexperienced players, leading to new player dissatisfaction and backlash.

Anet *should* promote new content.  This is a natural part of running an online game.  But this makes a conflict by tempting new, inexperienced players into high level content that they aren't ready for.

Meanwhile, these convenience items are great for experienced players with lots of alts.

The obvious fix would be to put a 'must have at least one level 80 character to use this item' requirement on the various boosts and shortcuts.  But then new players are going to consider that unfair, and react badly.

There's no easy solution.  But I think that a level 80 requirement would be the closest thing.

As for any of this making G2W pay to win, I think that just shows the inexperience of the players making that accusation.  I believe that they haven't seen *true* pay to win, or they'd know that these things *aren't* it.  I think these boost items are problematic in certain ways, but not pay to win.

 

 

[Roads.5130]

1 minute ago, Elden Arnaas.4870 said:

As for any of this making G2W pay to win, I think that just shows the inexperience of the players making that accusation.  I believe that they haven't seen *true* pay to win, or they'd know that these things *aren't* it.

No, it is pay to win. It is absolutely not the worst pay to win game, I will even go as far as saying it probably is the least offensive pay to win game, but it still pay to win. Buying legendary weapons on day 1 and infinite amount of gold to solve the remaining problems IS pay to win regardless of if others players feel bad about it or not.

I love how people keep bringing inexperience as if experienced players could not see this business model as pay to win, but that is an assumption, a wrong assumption. Even last week I played a mobile game from a franchise that I used to love (Zenonia, for those curious) and it is a ridiculous pay to win scheme, I have played many other online games with such schemes (I purchased BDO on day one, and still there was this person trying to lecture me about BDO). I am not saying GW2 is as offensive as these other games, but I am saying it absolutely employs some P2W models and for any of these oblivious to that clear fact, I think it just shows they are stuck with old definitions that are not very useful in the current environment.

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, Roads.5130 said:

No, it is pay to win. It is absolutely not the worst pay to win game, I will even go as far as saying it probably is the least offensive pay to win game, but it still pay to win. Buying legendary weapons on day 1 and infinite amount of gold to solve the remaining problems IS pay to win regardless of if others players feel bad about it or not.
 

Have you even played the game?

[Roads.5130]

Just now, kharmin.7683 said:

Have you even played the game?

Have you even read a reply?

[Roads.5130]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Have you even played the game?

I don't know why are you so focused on replying to me, you haven't made a single argument and keep coming with these ridiculous, snarky replies. Go, think, elaborate an argument, and stop confuse emoting every reply you don't agree with, maybe then your replies will hold some value.

[kharmin.7683]

3 minutes ago, Roads.5130 said:

I don't know why are you so focused on replying to me, you haven't made a single argument and keep coming with these ridiculous, snarky replies. Go, think, elaborate an argument, and stop confuse emoting every reply you don't agree with, maybe then your replies will hold some value.

I don't need to make an argument because your point has yet to be valid.  You continue to push the narrative that GW2 is P2W and have yet to define how anyone wins GW2.  That's ridiculous.

Also, i don't emote with every reply that I don't agree with.  Please don't accuse me and impugn my character.

[Roads.5130]

2 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I don't need to make an argument because your point has yet to be valid.  You continue to push the narrative that GW2 is P2W and have yet to define how anyone wins GW2. 

Again, how one wins a game is absolutely unrelated to the term P2W. Pay to win is a term that relates to the monetary practices of a game. The fact that I already said that and you continue trying to go with that childish, simplistic narrative makes it impossible for you to make an actual argument, that's why you don't make them.

 

5 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Also, i don't emote with every reply that I don't agree with.  Please don't accuse me and impugn my character.

Sure, me neither.

[Ashen.2907]

14 hours ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

It has no single meaning that is generally agreed upon, and it's not even a generational difference of opinion. Nothing written here will convince anyone who already has an opinion. So, I can only reiterate my opinion, which is that the discussion is pointless. 

 

I would normally agree but the discussion, here at least, is taking place in English and the three words have very specific meaning in that language.

[kharmin.7683]

24 minutes ago, Roads.5130 said:

Again, how one wins a game is absolutely unrelated to the term P2W. Pay to win is a term that relates to the monetary practices of a game. The fact that I already said that and you continue trying to go with that childish, simplistic narrative makes it impossible for you to make an actual argument, that's why you don't make them.

 

 

The term WIN is literally in the phrase PAY TO WIN.   The monetary practices of GW2 in no way allow any players to WIN the game over any other players.  Can things be obtained faster by purchasing them?  Absolutely, but those items do not grant any benefit or advantage that isn't available in other ways.  If such items were EXCLUSIVE and ONLY available from purchasing with real cash, then you would have a valid argument.

And calling me childish and simplistic doesn't really help to support your position.  Those who cannot make a valid argument often resort to name calling when they cannot convince the opposition.  Maybe try to support your position with actual FACTS that show EXACTLY how GW2 is P2W instead of making hyperbolic statements.

[Roads.5130]

37 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

And calling me childish and simplistic doesn't really help to support your position

Working on that reading comprehension would be a great first step to actually have a meaningful participation on this discussion. I never called you childish or simplistic, I called the narrative you were going for childish and simplistic. Let me quote myself to make it more clear.

1 hour ago, Roads.5130 said:

and you continue trying to go with that childish, simplistic narrative

I hope that is enough to clarify: I never insulted you, just your arguments.

37 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Maybe try to support your position with actual FACTS that show EXACTLY how GW2 is P2W instead of making hyperbolic statements

I already posted like three times a list with different sources with definitions that would neatly fit GW2´s business model. They are simple, general definitions, but they also come from different places, urban dictionary, cambridge dictionary, gaming magazines, even two reddit posts with different participants. They all are the first results from googling "what is pay to win". 

Try reading a little, then think, then think a little bit more, then come and try to make an actual argument, maybe then I will value your participation other than "the confused meme emoji person".

Edited December 4, 2023 by Roads.5130

[DeanBB.4268]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:04 AM, Roads.5130 said:

I googled the definition of pay to win and came across a reddit thread, I also read about it on other sites for like 2 minutes, there is not a single definition of pay to win, but I think GW2 bussiness model fits these definitions from different people:
-Real money > In game benefits

-Pay to win is any system where a player can purchase something that is not superficial or cosmetic.

-"Pay To Win" is defined as games in which you get an advantage in the game if you spend real money on items, weapons or features and are thus clearly superior to other players.

-In computer games, involving or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money

You say "So paying for actual content in an MMo is now considered pay to win??" with a laughing emoji, but you are conveniently ignoring the fact selling content does not have to equal selling advantage, ANet could have made the choice of releasing new areas, new skins, more story and new JPs while letting everyone have access to the new elite specs, all the mounts, all the raids so they could farm for legendary armor, but no they locked these advantages behind a paywall and, clearly, many people consider that pay to win. I personally don't care too much, even though I do not have the means to pay this new direction ANet has taken where they deliver paid content two or tree times a year.

Well, as long as your source is reddit, how can we complain about the official definition of P2W?

Any game that you have to buy an inventory bag is P2W? Really?

The last 2 are the definition of P2W. In a competitive environment, you can pay money to get an advantage over another player. GW2 has none of that. Only pay to skip. You won't be winning any PvP if you kit out your character with a legendary weapon and elite spec on day 1.

[Roads.5130]

9 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Well, as long as your source is reddit, how can we complain about the official definition of P2W?

Dont forget cambridge dictionary, urban dictionary, levelup magazine, wikipedia. But sure, let´s listen to the defintion of what a random gw2 player says it used to mean back in the day.

 

edit: forgot a word.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Roads.5130

[Obtena.7952]

You don't like Anet selling HP's? Oh that's unfortunate ... for you. Get over yourselves.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[kharmin.7683]

7 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Well, as long as your source is reddit, how can we complain about the official definition of P2W?

Any game that you have to buy an inventory bag is P2W? Really?

The last 2 are the definition of P2W. In a competitive environment, you can pay money to get an advantage over another player. GW2 has none of that. Only pay to skip. You won't be winning any PvP if you kit out your character with a legendary weapon and elite spec on day 1.

Yeah, that's the hill he wants to die on.  Can't argue with opinions.

[Roads.5130]

Just now, kharmin.7683 said:

Can't argue with opinions.

Specially if you are unable to formulate an actual argument to begin with.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Roads.5130 said:

Specially if you are unable to formulate an actual argument to begin with.

There isn't an argument to be had in the first place. Anet is selling HP's like it or not. That doesn't change because some people are offended by P2W or whatever sensitivities they have. 

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi Everyone,

I'm locking this thread as it's run its course.

Regards.