Next Vindicator nerf

[Angesombre.4630]

Another example a year ago, they increased the GS vindicator. And a few months ago it was reduced more than it was at the beginning when Vindicator was released.

If you find this amusing, try to explain to me why it is more fun?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Another example a year ago, they increased the GS vindicator. And a few months ago it was reduced more than it was at the beginning when Vindicator was released.

If you find this amusing, try to explain to me why it is more fun?

not related to energy meld at all. It's like comparing apples with pears

[Angesombre.4630]

18 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

not related to energy meld at all. It's like comparing apples with pears

I never said it was related, it was an example of what Anet does..
 

And I asked how it was more fun to have new traits that don't add much compared to the old one? @Warscythes.9307

Edited November 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Warscythes.9307]

37 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

You do realize the entire reason for all this fuss is that:
 

1. People hate having an additional button in their rotation.

2. It used to be good, then it got changed to be actually bad.

3. It was never needed in the first place, but shoved in and takes 3 Major trait slots.

That's why this 1 tiny button is so offensive to Vindi players. It's just so intrusive yet being utterly pointless. People are not joking when they say they can play Vindi to full capacity without even traiting Master Major. It's that useless and that impactless, but intrudes upon potential trait choices if it just didn't exist. Shortchanged doesn't even begin to describe the feeling of having not 1, not 2, but essentially 3 dead traits. 

1. Why? Is not even an extra button because energy cost is a thing. Is actually a different button. Where is the extra button coming from? You actually replace a button in your rotation because you don't have enough energy to do the same rotation plus one more button. You only realistically hit an extra one when you used the replaced button to gap close and if the entire issue is that if pressing an extra button means is now terrible on a basic as hell rotation like vindi? Then kitten man I don't want to discuss anything because is obvious we don't see eye to eye.

2. Where is it bad? Keep in mind I am still only talking about PvE because is where I tried it. There is no this clunky or run out of endurance issue.

3. Yes is needed, we may have disagreements on exactly how energy meld should be changed. But we both know there has been threads about how energy meld can be changed. This is personally something I like, because I was originally a fan of the 1 dodge mechanic and this is basically a compromise. I like the idea of having the profession skill buff the profession flavor skill. You can disagree on exactly how is it implemented, but to say is never needed is just wrong.

So no, is not intrusive at all and has value. People are just obstinate as hell towards any sort of change and post based on feelings alone such as the guy claiming the damage is nerfed, or cd in pve need to be reduced...when is already reduced. Also that master major is anywhere around 5-10% of your total damage on the logs. So no people are not playing at full capacity if they ignore the trait man, if that's what people are saying then they are bad. Or are you saying doing 5-10% damage is ok for it to count as full capacity? I mean this is the sort of thing I am talking about. You can't call it useless and is now suddenly useless. You have to back it up with something. 

Standard Kitty Golem (dps.report)

Here is a dps log, non grinded based on chat. See how much damage dodge did? Remember how much of a damage buff is the master trait? Do you really call that useless?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Warscythes.9307]

41 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

The F2 is linked to the trait so it comes down to the same thing because its usefulness depends on the trait you choose. I only tested in PvE and as I already said, it's annoying to have to click on this button every 10 to 20 seconds. The daredevil didn't need a button to continue moving a lot in all directions for example, and his gameplay is fluid.
This slows down the game, I feel like I'm not as mobile since the change on 28.
In addition, I talked about other traits that risk being nerfed (not necessarily in PvE) such as giving direct endurance (therefore unique buff) to the other subsequently.
And if I mentioned WvW and PvP it's because of the trait which gives damage and additional healing knowing that they have been nerfed several times so if we add healing, in a short time the devs will nerf him again.

Is every 10 seconds and my question really is what is so annoying about pressing it? The cast time is on par with most skills you press, it makes your dodge hit like a truck, it doesn't have forced movement, is not a channel, is a bog standard buff skill. I mean we can complain about how it feels weak because the animation is bad, for sure I agree with that, their animation budget has been awful. But I really think is just a matter of a knee jerk reaction than anything else because you can't just tell me it feels bad because is an extra button, especially due to how energy works you can only fit so many skills before you have to invoke anyway. The daredevil unironically IS clunky because the main damage skill staff 2 has a long animation lock. If you go in thief forum and say the daredevil gameplay is fluid in PvE, watch people laugh at you. If you are talking about condi dd, well the main damage death blossom is a force movement skill with a relatively long cast. I wouldn't put that on the pedestal. 

So really no, you are just not used to it. The mobility hasn't changed because as I mentioned, you are typically overcapped on endurance because OW Vindi need to spam scavenger burst which gives 20 endurance on hit. If you are not doing that in open world then you are playing it wrong. If you are playing it right then you wouldn't run into this issue at all unless you just need to chain spam dodges for whatever reason.

For WvW and PvP...I mean that's fine. Balance in game modes are separate.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Yasai.3549]

15 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

1. Why? Is not even an extra button because energy cost is a thing. Is actually a different button. Where is the extra button coming from? You actually replace a button in your rotation because you don't have enough energy to do the same rotation plus one more button. You only realistically hit an extra one when you used the replaced button to gap close and if the entire issue is that if pressing an extra button means is now terrible on a basic as hell rotation like vindi? Then kitten man I don't want to discuss anything because is obvious we don't see eye to eye.

2. Where is it bad? Keep in mind I am still only talking about PvE because is where I tried it. There is no this clunky or run out of endurance issue.

3. Yes is needed, we may have disagreements on exactly how energy meld should be changed. But we both know there has been threads about how energy meld can be changed. This is personally something I like, because I was originally a fan of the 1 dodge mechanic and this is basically a compromise. I like the idea of having the profession skill buff the profession flavor skill. You can disagree on exactly how is it implemented, but to say is never needed is just wrong.

So no, is not intrusive at all and has value. People are just obstinate as hell towards any sort of change and post based on feelings alone such as the guy claiming the damage is nerfed, or cd in pve need to be reduced...when is already reduced. Also that master major is anywhere around 5-10% of your total damage on the logs. So no people are not playing at full capacity if they ignore the trait man, if that's what people are saying then they are bad. Or are you saying doing 5-10% damage is ok for it to count as full capacity? I mean this is the sort of thing I am talking about. You can't call it useless and is now suddenly useless. You have to back it up with something. 

Standard Kitty Golem (dps.report)

Here is a dps log, non grinded based on chat. See how much damage dodge did? Remember how much of a damage buff is the master trait? Do you really call that useless?

Because Options > No Options. 

The change pretty much pigeon holes Vindis to play around it, and that's taking options away from the player because now the skill sticks like a sore thumb and demands usage. And as I've already said, it used to be good, via Song, and it got nerfed. So now it's a bad skill you MUST use and hey it turns out you are totally fine not using it anyway. If it was a good change, people won't be so up in arms about it, but it's not. 

If you wanna discuss ways to improve it, by all means. As it stands, it's not well liked, and people won't suddenly love it when forced to use it. That's really it.  No one likes being forced to use things. Just dig through Revenant subforum and find people discussing the change to how Herald applied Quickness. People hated being forced into an Upkeep Auto machine just to uptime Quickness. It's "good" for some builds but it's just such a weird and forceful change in playstyle. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Warscythes.9307]

9 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Because Options > No Options. 

The change pretty much pigeon holes Vindis to play around it, and that's taking options away from the player because now the skill sticks like a sore thumb and demands usage. And as I've already said, it used to be good, via Song, and it got nerfed. So now it's a bad skill you MUST use and hey it turns out you care totally fine not using it anyway. If it was a good change, people won't be so up in arms about it, but it's not. 

If you wanna discuss ways to improve it, by all means. As it stands, it's not well liked, and people won't suddenly love it when forced to use it. That's really it. 

Can we agree on this Yasai? If there is ONE skill in the entire class toolkit that should be forced to use everywhere, it should be the profession skill. This is the universal constant no matter what as long as you are a vindicator. So no, in this very specific case this sort of pigeon hole is needed. Imagine spellbreakers complain that they are forced to use counterattack, I'd laugh. Also again, is not a bad skill. Did you just not see the log? Is literally 5-10% of your damage, you can't just keep saying that is bad and useless when I have logs right here. Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true man. Also please, you have been on this forum probably for a couple years now. Let's face it, every single class forum here is a gigantic echo chamber, no exception. People will dislike literally every change no matter what. You are more likely to get people here agree to add 3 dodges to Vindicator than people agree on liking a side way change. Honestly now I typed it out I wonder why I am here, I guess is super cold outside today so I didn't feel like leaving the house? I guess I go for a walk now before it gets too dark and I get mugged.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[arazoth.7290]

27 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I never said it was related, it was an example of what Anet does..
 

And I asked how it was more fun to have new traits that don't add much compared to the old one? @Warscythes.9307

If you're not comparing, then why bring in an example that you're refering/comparing anything with. So yes you compared different changes that has noting to do with each other

[Yasai.3549]

16 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Can we agree on this Yasai? If there is ONE skill in the entire class toolkit that should be forced to use everywhere, it should be the profession skill.

Yes but I also believe it shouldn't hold 3 Major traits hostage. So change that. 

Buff Energy Meld, and change the 3 Majors to something else which affect the spec as a whole. 

[Angesombre.4630]

34 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Can we agree on this Yasai? If there is ONE skill in the entire class toolkit that should be forced to use everywhere, it should be the profession skill. This is the universal constant no matter what as long as you are a vindicator. So no, in this very specific case this sort of pigeon hole is needed. Imagine spellbreakers complain that they are forced to use counterattack, I'd laugh. Also again, is not a bad skill. Did you just not see the log? Is literally 5-10% of your damage, you can't just keep saying that is bad and useless when I have logs right here. Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true man. Also please, you have been on this forum probably for a couple years now. Let's face it, every single class forum here is a gigantic echo chamber, no exception. People will dislike literally every change no matter what. You are more likely to get people here agree to add 3 dodges to Vindicator than people agree on liking a side way change. Honestly now I typed it out I wonder why I am here, I guess is super cold outside today so I didn't feel like leaving the house? I guess I go for a walk now before it gets too dark and I get mugged.

If it's that good, then a nerve of damage will come to the vindicator.
On herald are you "obliged" to use F2? On renegat are you "obliged" to use F2, F3 or F4?
I'll try with several examples. 
One example is to show how bad decisions can be. 
One day a buff, the next a nerf. 
It's not too complicated, I know it's going too far. Maybe I should have used simpler words.
If you're going down a straight path, that's fine. The next day there are trunks with lots of branches on the path, which slows you down.
You take a bike and they say "you have to use it with one leg", is that better? Or, quite simply, if you get off your bike every 5 metres to change the tire pressure or the wheels, it's no better. Knowing that before there was no need to do so.

Just because some people like masochism doesn't mean it's good for everyone.

And as for the thief, I never mentioned the stick, I just mentioned the dodging system. The only weapon I mentioned was the double dagger, with which you can still dodge with skill 3. The reason I mentioned the daredevil is that its dodge is fluid, otherwise there wouldn't be as many people using it. 

[arazoth.7290]

5 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Yes but I also believe it shouldn't hold 3 Major traits hostage. So change that. 

Buff Energy Meld, and change the 3 Majors to something else which affect the spec as a whole. 

All 3 effect the spec as a whole, that's the thing. The idea is to give 3 different choices how to play it little bit differently.

=> Reaver's Curse: affects dodge quality and not quantity in bursts

Angsiyan's Trust: affects your energy. I admit +25 energy is little bit flat.

Another example, they could add ontop of this that you convert 50 endurance over 5 seconds into more energy and when it's completed, you gain the effects 1 dodge would give.

Song of arboreum:  Affects dodge quantity instead of quality like the first.

Also vigor duration can just be increased. The +25% is lesser then the instant endurance you gain and can now share. You have now on demand almost 2 dodges back after you press it in pve, wvw/pvp almost 1 dodge because balance.

[arazoth.7290]

7 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

If it's that good, then a nerve of damage will come to the vindicator.
On herald are you "obliged" to use F2? On renegat are you "obliged" to use F2, F3 or F4?
I'll try with several examples. 
One example is to show how bad decisions can be. 
One day a buff, the next a nerf. 
It's not too complicated, I know it's going too far. Maybe I should have used simpler words.
If you're going down a straight path, that's fine. The next day there are trunks with lots of branches on the path, which slows you down.
You take a bike and they say "you have to use it with one leg", is that better? Or, quite simply, if you get off your bike every 5 metres to change the tire pressure or the wheels, it's no better. Knowing that before there was no need to do so.

Just because some people like masochism doesn't mean it's good for everyone.

And as for the thief, I never mentioned the stick, I just mentioned the dodging system. The only weapon I mentioned was the double dagger, with which you can still dodge with skill 3. The reason I mentioned the daredevil is that its dodge is fluid, otherwise there wouldn't be as many people using it. 

F skills ln renegade are often used in rotation yes. herald their would be used more if passive was stronger, consumes are quite okay. 

[Warscythes.9307]

50 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

If it's that good, then a nerve of damage will come to the vindicator.
On herald are you "obliged" to use F2? On renegat are you "obliged" to use F2, F3 or F4?
I'll try with several examples. 
One example is to show how bad decisions can be. 
One day a buff, the next a nerf. 
It's not too complicated, I know it's going too far. Maybe I should have used simpler words.
If you're going down a straight path, that's fine. The next day there are trunks with lots of branches on the path, which slows you down.
You take a bike and they say "you have to use it with one leg", is that better? Or, quite simply, if you get off your bike every 5 metres to change the tire pressure or the wheels, it's no better. Knowing that before there was no need to do so.

Just because some people like masochism doesn't mean it's good for everyone.

And as for the thief, I never mentioned the stick, I just mentioned the dodging system. The only weapon I mentioned was the double dagger, with which you can still dodge with skill 3. The reason I mentioned the daredevil is that its dodge is fluid, otherwise there wouldn't be as many people using it. 

I am just going to respond to the first part because this is sticking out like a sore thumb. Yes you are obligated to use F2 as a herald and yes you are obligated to use F skills as a renegade. If you are not using them constantly then you are playing it badly. I feel like the issue here is that we have a complete disconnect on how the game is played. You have to understand you might as well asked me if you are obligated to use mouth to eat food. Well friend yes, yes you do. So you have to understand why is feels sometimes exhausting to reply, because I can't fathom how do I talk about things when what I feel is basic gameplay is treated as some alien concept.

At least I didn't get mugged tonight. But yeah I feel this discussion is kind of over at this point now that you posted this. I don't know how to continue unless you want to turn into a pure spitting contest. But hey at least I don't drag this on like Obtena eh? Good show friends. Let's kitten about anet on the next balance patch which I guess is next year when new weapons are introduced for real, that definitely is gonna be a doozy.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Aeolus.3615]

5 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am just going to respond to the first part because this is sticking out like a sore thumb. Yes you are obligated to use F2 as a herald and yes you are obligated to use F skills as a renegade.

I dont think even herald players notice that consuming their F2 on ventari will boost their next heal, and how strong  facet of nature becomes when used with core value.

[Tokizo.8917]

5 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am just going to respond to the first part because this is sticking out like a sore thumb. Yes you are obligated to use F2 as a herald and yes you are obligated to use F skills as a renegade. If you are not using them constantly then you are playing it badly. I feel like the issue here is that we have a complete disconnect on how the game is played. You have to understand you might as well asked me if you are obligated to use mouth to eat food. Well friend yes, yes you do. So you have to understand why is feels sometimes exhausting to reply, because I can't fathom how do I talk about things when what I feel is basic gameplay is treated as some alien concept.

At least I didn't get mugged tonight. But yeah I feel this discussion is kind of over at this point now that you posted this. I don't know how to continue unless you want to turn into a pure spitting contest. But hey at least I don't drag this on like Obtena eh? Good show friends. Let's kitten about anet on the next balance patch which I guess is next year when new weapons are introduced for real, that definitely is gonna be a doozy.

I think what most people and especially I am complaining about is just the song of arboreum. To be more precise that the duration of the vigor application is too short and the 25% effectiveness is missing. As soon as I use retribution this class feels much better however I am either losing DMG or sustain by not using invocation or salvation. 

As for the damage: I tried it out and I lost 2k, that's why I said the dps went down. And yes I did 2 golum tests, one with song of arboreum and one with reavers curse. But seeing your dps log it looks like my rotation was just bad. 

And your mentioned that people should use Scavenger Burst. That is true and I am using that and with a lot of mobs that is also still fine. But if you are facing a single target boss you are still losing dodges since the update. 

If they added the 25% effectiveness to Tenacious Ruin or maybe SOA and increase the duration of vigor on SOA or reduced the cool down, this would feel much better even with using 1 more button.

As for Angsiyan's Trust, I don't know how many people will use it and if it will bring any benefit in PvP or WvW.  

I personally would have preferred something more useful like:

increase the cooldown to 40 seconds. Your next dodge revives 5 ally's

30% revive percentage

Number of targets: 5

But I know that that is just personal opinion. 

 

[Esufer.8762]

Granted I only really play WvW and Pvp, but Ansiyan's Trust feels incredible in both modes, the extra energy/getting you closer to your next dodge always feels really really good, and lets you keep your pressure on or get away when chased. Certainly better than the 10 energy on legend swap it was before, or the sneeze of vigor we got from Song of Arboreum.

Beginning to get the vibe that the majority of forum users don't like change.

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, Esufer.8762 said:

Granted I only really play WvW and Pvp, but Ansiyan's Trust feels incredible in both modes, the extra energy/getting you closer to your next dodge always feels really really good, and lets you keep your pressure on or get away when chased. Certainly better than the 10 energy on legend swap it was before, or the sneeze of vigor we got from Song of Arboreum.

 

you can make more combos with it in especs by using for example shiro stun or teleport.

 

2 minutes ago, Esufer.8762 said:

Beginning to get the vibe that the majority of forum users don't like change.

Seems so, just like my cat

[Esufer.8762]

Just now, arazoth.7290 said:

you can make more combos with it in especs by using for example shiro stun or teleport.

Honestly, being able to pop Energy Meld for a suprise follow up port to catch speed rune Willbenders is a godsend. Or to be able to break stun (not that I'm convinced Contained Temper is actually working, mind you), pop energy meld and then have enough energy to actually play the game and not just die because you spent all your energy on breaking a stun? Fantastic.

[arazoth.7290]

3 minutes ago, Esufer.8762 said:

Honestly, being able to pop Energy Meld for a suprise follow up port to catch speed rune Willbenders is a godsend. Or to be able to break stun (not that I'm convinced Contained Temper is actually working, mind you), pop energy meld and then have enough energy to actually play the game and not just die because you spent all your energy on breaking a stun? Fantastic.

it's nice yes for more combos which you could only do previously on core.

I saw contained temper amount it gives in pve vs pvp. Pve is 15 energy on return which I saw first and I was like ohh promising !!! But then I checked the pvp version which is 5 energy on return 🤦. This have been the same or minimum 10 energy. The 5 extra might not look much but it's a difference in making a stunbreak 30-35 energy => 20-25 energy total after using it the right time.

 

[Esufer.8762]

10 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

The 5 extra might not look much but it's a difference in making a stunbreak 30-35 energy => 20-25 energy total after using it the right time.

Oh, I mean I recorded myself using it and watched it back in WvW in slow motion and it doesn't seem to actually be working at all. Couldn't see the 5 energy being granted at all. I'll test it some more, it looked like Riposting shadows was still costing the full 40 with normal regen after (rather than a jump in 5 energy)

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Esufer.8762 said:

Oh, I mean I recorded myself using it and watched it back in WvW in slow motion and it doesn't seem to actually be working at all. Couldn't see the 5 energy being granted at all. I'll test it some more, it looked like Riposting shadows was still costing the full 40 with normal regen after (rather than a jump in 5 energy)

owww bugged then. Send that recording to arena net ❤️

[Yasai.3549]

6 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am just going to respond to the first part because this is sticking out like a sore thumb. Yes you are obligated to use F2 as a herald and yes you are obligated to use F skills as a renegade.

But alas TN and Orders offer much more over Energy Meld, which by default still costs Energy to cast and doesn't really do much unless you specifically pick Reaver for Master Major. I'd rather just make Reaver's baseline, then redesign the other two Majors. 

Think about it: if Reaver's was made baseline, you'd have reason and purpose for mashing it, no matter which GM you pick for your playstyle. You'll be actually incentivised to mash Energy Meld as much as possible. 

[Sereath.1428]

Did they even change anything since the preview?
💀
Same values, same cooldowns, same cast time.
Once again we wasted time writing feedback.

"But from 42.79k DPS to 43.526k DPS!

Actually sick and tired of this, see you in a few months.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Angesombre.4630]

I'm not against all change.
"Reaver's Curse" needed a change, just as "Angsiyan's Trust" did. On that I completely agree, before they were useless features.
Where I'm most disappointed is with "Song of Arboreum". 
So a compromise, I know not everyone will agree with me, it's just an idea. It's to have the skill remain as it was before, that is to say: give vigor when dodging as before and the F2 would serve to give more endurance to allies almost as before, except that it would share it.
With this, there should be something for everyone.

Where I'm most bothered by using the F2 is its cost of 10 extra for 2 of the 3 traits. You can be prevented from using the F2 or interrupted. In addition, the F2 must also be affected if we have confusion on us.
Sorry if I misspoke.

I'd also like to put up a video of the dardevil playing the baton, you can also see its mobility which was almost similar to the vindicator before.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Katary.7096]

5 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 I'd rather just make Reaver's baseline, then redesign the other two Majors.

I think reworking Energy Meld to improve the next dodge instead of generating endurance and redesigning the master tier major traits is a pretty good idea at this point.