The new player Problem: Accumulation of wealth and skill, downfall of MMO's

[SlayerXX.7138]

MMO's are failing. It is nearly impossible for newbys to get into a game. Even returning players struggle. Grind become to long and content to hard. I have a theory.

MMO attracts and needs "power Gamers" to function. These are very vocal and isolate themselves from other experience, because MMO are a gigantic time commitment to begin with. The Devs themselves are pretty involved in these kind of game and over relay on feedback and design content accordingly pushing Casuals out game in the process. This a feedback loop and the real reason MMO die, only Problem is every relevant Person is to involved to see the forest for the trees, blind to the (to me at least) obvious Problem MMO face. Games like WoW do somewhat avoid these Pitfall with temporary Powers and the gear reset each expansion. Still, even WoW like games grows horizontal. The knowledge and skill of the playerbase dev have to assume is ever increasing.Ability count is still high even with the pruning. I remember years ago playing PvP struggling to perform accordingly, because i have 30+ relevant buttons i need to press. Watching a decent arena player in real life looks like a person playing 2 pianos at once, with one hand and on crack. But low and behold I look at the comments of the recent patch at the time and you have people whining in the comments about the lack of skills."Why are there not more talents that are active, we have so little buttons to press". Even with the ability to solo Raids from two expansion ago and countless catch up mechanics it is clear as day that WoW becomes less casual friendly every expansion. That why numbers only go down.

Accumulation of wealth and worthwhile account upgrades is just the visible Problem. The Accumulation of skill and knowledge of the average "relevant" player, and assumed competence, when Devs make new content are much worse. Go PvP where gear doesn't matter. You average low plat(considered barley competent if you ask the forum) probably has a thousand+ training duels in the mist under their belt. Or watch a final of a LoL tournament 3 years after it came out, when everyone was somehow new and then the average gold player in 2023. The thing is Lol is a simple PvP only game with basically a single map and a gigantic Population. Even so, Riot had to make countless concessions in game design to combat the every increasing power level of veterans players. Due to this increase at the upper echelons of player skill, the gap between casual and Veteran is increasing too.

Now look at GW 2, where you not only get better as a player in skill and knowledge, but also gather Account updates over the years. Getting into this game is pretty hard. Even with all the soft catch up mechanics getting into the game even as returning is till hard. The vastly different skill and power level is not accounted for in game design. The game is designed with veteran player in mind. The only consideration casual players get is a numbers decrease, with not a single thought wasted on game play consideration. The most egregious example is probably the raid fail buff. It is more then generous, while totally missing the game play issue. The most corporate example is the long Skyscale grind that got "solved" with buying the new expansion. In General game design seems often out of touch with what a "average" player is willing or able to do, if they didn't play this game for 10 years straight.

Edit1: In other words MMO Devs and veterans alike don't understand being a new player at the beginning of the game is a vastly different experience then being a new player years later. That's why failed MMO try to give players actually honest to god free loot, thinking this complex problem of catching up in a complex game, is solved by such a misguided attempt to solve a Problem that started the second the game released.

Edit2: For the people who think i complain about grind in general; you are wrong. GW 2 has at places on of the best solution to these kind of problems, it just a shame they fumble the ball on other places. The legendary items grind is the most elegant solution an MMO has ever produced. A Worthwhile longtime goal to works towards. While "unobtainable" to the casual player it is also "useless" to the casual player. A longtime goal that only pays dividend if you are hundreds or thousand of hours into the game.

Edit3: Clarification: If i say GW 2 is a hard game to get into, i mean in relation to other Games, not other MMO's. Like multiple people mentions Guild wars is on the easier sides to get into if you only look at MMO's. That is why MMO's as a whole struggle.

Edited December 4, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[MoonRaiden.7423]

????

I need you to understand that this game is pretty casual, and it is a fully horizontal progression for every expansion.

New players could jump in, learn the mechanics, go through the story, and understand how things function. If they do not understand how to combo, perhaps read the tutorials, forums, or the pop-up notification in the game. 

Accumulation of wealth is healthy in an MMO, and provides a market, and marker for players to try and ascertain. If you give new players everything, I can guarantee they don't give a dam. 

Honestly, this post sounds like a skill problem. It's like complaining that someone can't join a community because they don't want to learn the community guidelines.

Edited December 3, 2023 by MoonRaiden.7423

[Farohna.6247]

I can from playing WoW for the better part of a decade....raids, PvP, all of it...after they started watering the game down so much and their story declining.  I had no issue getting into GW2.  One of the most helpful communities and fun  experiences I have had in games.   Is it different.... absolutely.  It.  Is.  Not.  WoW.

They have made it simpler, more accessible for new players, and hold their hands more now than when I started five years ago.   You have to be willing to read...and I feel like is an issue for a lot of players who just roll around on the keyboard then wonder why nothing goes right.   

The sky has been falling on MMOs for years ...yet they're still here.   Some players have become lazy from playing phone games that after so many fails let you win.  It's a game ...play it.   Not just expect it all to be handed to you.  

What's wrong with accumulation of wealth.  Surely you encountered this in WoW. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Farohna.6247

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

MMO's are failing. It is nearly impossible for newbys to get into a game. Even returning players struggle. Grind become to long and content to hard. I have a theory.

MMO attracts and needs "power Gamers" to function. These are very vocal and isolate themselves from other experience, because MMO are a gigantic time commitment to begin with. The Devs themselves are pretty involved in these kind of game and over relay on feedback and design content accordingly pushing Casuals out game in the process. This a feedback loop and the real reason MMO die, only Problem is every relevant Person is to involved to see the forest for the trees, blind to the (to me at least) obvious Problem MMO face. Games like WoW do somewhat avoid these Pitfall with temporary Powers and the gear reset each expansion. Still, even WoW like games grows horizontal. The knowledge and skill of the playerbase dev have to assume is ever increasing.Ability count is still high even with the pruning. I remember years ago playing PvP struggling to perform accordingly, because i have 30+ relevant buttons i need to press. Watching a decent arena player in real life looks like a person playing 2 pianos at once, with one hand and on crack. But low and behold I look at the comments of the recent patch at the time and you have people whining in the comments about the lack of skills."Why are there not more talents that are active, we have so little buttons to press". Even with the ability to solo Raids from two expansion ago and countless catch up mechanics it is clear as day that WoW becomes less casual friendly every expansion. That why numbers only go down.

Accumulation of wealth and worthwhile account upgrades is just the visible Problem. The Accumulation of skill and knowledge of the average "relevant" player, and assumed competence, when Devs make new content are much worse. Go PvP where gear doesn't matter. You average low plat(considered barley competent if you ask the forum) probably has a thousand+ training duels in the mist under their belt. Or watch a final of a LoL tournament 3 years after it came out, when everyone was somehow new and then the average gold player in 2023. The thing is Lol is a simple PvP only game with basically a single map and a gigantic Population. Even so, Riot had to make countless concessions in game design to combat the every increasing power level of veterans players. Due to this increase at the upper echelons of player skill, the gap between casual and Veteran is increasing too.

Now look at GW 2, where you not only get better as a player in skill and knowledge, but also gather Account updates over the years. Getting into this game is pretty hard. Even with all the soft catch up mechanics getting into the game even as returning is till hard. The vastly different skill and power level is not accounted for in game design. The game is designed with veteran player in mind. The only consideration casual players get is a numbers decrease, with not a single thought wasted on game play consideration. The most egregious example is probably the raid fail buff. It is more then generous, while totally missing the game play issue. The most corporate example is the long Skyscale grind that got "solved" with buying the new expansion. In General game design seems often out of touch with what a "average" player is willing or able to do, if they didn't play this game for 10 years straight.

Imagine complaining about "catching up" in a game where you can equip yourself in gear that is only 5% below BiS for a negligible amount of gold the moment you reach the level cap.

[Crono.4197]

To be honest, most complaints I've heard about Guild Wars 2 is from people who came here and expected the game to be another WoW, where you level, get gear, new expansion comes out, you level, get new gear, and so on, and not willing to try to stick around and learn a new game that has the structure out of the norm.

A lot of people play these game for the power fantasy, where they constantly get new level and new gear in order to become better than other players, be competitive, etc. Guild Wars 2 does not work like that, so of course people expecting the game to be a race to the highest level and best gear will be disappointed.

 

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

It has never been easier to start GW2.

Purchasing GW2 + DLC
With every new expansion, they bundle up the previous ones. Nowadays you can buy the whole game for a fraction of the price we paid back at launch.

Gearing Up
This has never been much of a problem here, as exotic gear works for everything (except fractals). With the recent upgrades it is now significantly easier to obtain special stats. They keep adding more and more options to obtain both exotic and ascended gear. In addition they also keep making legendary gear easier to acquire. Even if you are not interested in getting your gear from playing content, the prices on TP keep dropping as well.

Skill Floor
We have a constantly growing number of Low Intensity builds, which allow new players to perform well with very little knowledge and understanding of the game and its mechanics. Those are not perfect, but a good start. Once the players feel more comfortable with their classes, they can switch to builds with higher skill requirements.

Loot
With the low cap of Magic Find, you can get good drops with a fresh account as well. You can get pretty high loot bonuses, even if you have started yesterday. The bonus of older accounts is there, but it is not too high. For other loot-stats, it is even easier to get higher.

Mounts
You can acquire the mounts in the expansions. But some of the acquisition methods have been adjusted. Skyscale was nerfed and got even a 2nd option via SotO, Turtle was adjusted as well. The price-tags for the PoF ones have never been changed, although making money became significantly easier over the years. 

Unlocking Elite Specializations
There are plenty of public HP runs for new players. In addition, there are options to unlock the Hero Points easier via WvW and Gemstore (recently added). When you do it with a group/friend/alone, you get to learn your class better and loot for completing your tasks.

Money Making
You can pick from countless of different methods. Depending on your personal preferences. There is not THE ONLY WAY of making money in this game.

No Story-Locking
With every Expansion and LW/DLC, you can start playing instantly. All you need is a level 80 character and the content unlocked on your account. In addition, you can access every map you want with the help of other players (if you own that content), even if you have not reached it in the story yet.

... etc.

I see the proof every day. We meet people in our guilds, instanced content or open world, who have started with GW2 recently. Yet they have easily acquired everything to play on the same level as we do. And we help them as well. Because we know most of the tricks already. There are tons of information-sources, streamers/content-creators, guides and guilds/communities which are dedicated to helping new players.

Edited December 3, 2023 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[Surelia.2651]

Your writing is all too obviously mirroring your other thread.  Not worth commenting further.

[Randulf.7614]

Yeah as much nonsense as the other thread. It’s an mmo, deal with it. Don’t change my game to suit the short term, quick fix, mobile gaming crowd who aren’t going to stick around regardless

Plus the game keeps getting an influx of new players and is well populated. These are non concerns for a game that is punching above its weight for its age and end life

Experienced players over advising can be a legit minefield, but it’s not a game breaking problem either

Edited December 3, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 hours ago, MoonRaiden.7423 said:

Accumulation of wealth is healthy in an MMO, and provides a market, and marker for players to try and ascertain. If you give new players everything, I can guarantee they don't give a dam. 

Yes some is healthy. But we are way past that point. Common knowledge is already outdated because how skewed some things are. Look at green unidentified gear. There are so many people with runecrafter and Endless extraction contract, that Runcrafter as a stand alone item is obsolete. Selling unopened gear is more profitable then opening the gear then salvaging. The only way to not lose gold is to Liquidize your luck with relic of firework, something a new player maybe shouldn't do.

We have gone from "always opening unidentified gear" to "never open your greens, except when you have runecrafter, a surplus of luck and an armor dicipline at 500. Is runecrafter worth it you ask? Well if you plan to play this game for at least 1000 to 5000 of hours yes otherwise no." And even that hinges on a single item, the relic of fireworks. If for some reason that items loses it ability to convert luck into gold Runecrafter goes back to being obsolete like before the expansion did drop.

Edit: For the confused People i can provide an explanation for the part where your can't follow the math of gear economics, when you tell me what you don't understand.

Edited December 3, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Yes some is healthy. But we are way past that point. Common knowledge is already outdated because how skewed some things are. Look at green unidentified gear. There are so many people with runecrafter and Endless extraction contract, that Runcrafter as a stand alone item is obsolete. Selling unopened gear is more profitable then opening the gear then salvaging. The only way to not lose gold is to Liquidize your luck with relic of firework, something a new player maybe shouldn't do.

We have gone from "always opening unidentified gear" to "never open your greens, except when you have runecrafter, a surplus of luck and an armor dicipline at 500. Is runecrafter worth it you ask? Well if you plan to play this game for at least 1000 to 5000 of hours yes otherwise no." And even that hinges on a single item, the relic of fireworks. If for some reason that items loses it ability to convert luck into gold Runecrafter goes back to being obsolete like before the expansion did drop.

How is any of this relevant to new players getting into the game? You suddenly can't play the game because someone else has more of something?

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How is any of this relevant to new players getting into the game? You suddenly can't play the game because someone else has more of something?

No my point is veteran player don't realize being a new player now is different then being a new player 6+ years ago. The fact that some people still recommend an obsolete gem shop item (runecrafter salvage kit) for new players or old common knowledge no longer being true like "always open your gear" is just one of the more clear examples.

Edit for @Sobx.1758:  @MoonRaiden.7423 Did say Accumulation of wealth is good for the game, i countered some yes, but we are so past the point of accumulation of Upgrades and wealth that it affects the game itself making it vastly different. I just choose opening green gear because it is a simple thing, that every player deals with. Runecrafter becoming an obsolete purchase is not a critic of the game, just a great example how the game vastly progressed with the flow of time. Other examples of things that changed vastly over time:

Gap between good and bad players is ever increasing even with LI builds, making OW a nightmare to balance. When a bad/new/casual player does 3k-10k depending on variance and boons and you average 10 man Strike does 20k per person, tuning OW content becomes harder by the day. Just look at the 100 of pages Eod meta discussion.
90% of Resource Nodes are literally worthless. Removing an MMO stable for GW2.
To combat powercreep content gets harder and harder. Raids and Cantha Strikes are not Dynamis Encounters, they are learned Performances to execute. Cool if you do that one content drop at a time. A nuance if you go through the content after the fact.
Similar thing with metas, after a couple weeks it is expected that people just know what to do. Interesting metas become math puzzles the community solved ages ago. Again cool if you did a Meta 10-50 times already. A Joyless experience if visit the meta for the first couple of times.

Edited December 3, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Doctor Hide.6345]

Being a new player now though is easier than before... The WV practically gives you ascended gear and almost all the mats you need to start making it. There are builds now that are easier to play than some years ago to do decent at group content. If someone is struggling that much to get into a game because of MMO basics which are not deep, then I am sorry to say but MMOs should not change how they do stuff because of them. The 15 second attention spam mobile target audience is not who I want to be playing with. No good MMO should be catering to that crowd who thinks they don't have to work for anything. MMOs may not be making as much as they used too, but I would rather have people that actually respect MMOs for what they are even it is less money compared to the ADHD mobile crowd which is the newer generation of gamers.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Fueki.4753]

Just because the most prominent players of any game seem to be par tof the top crust, doesn't mean all players are that way.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the majority of players are very casual. Even in WoW, the majority of people I met don't care much about the "gear treadmill" past normal raid item levels. And GW2 is even more casual friendly when it comes to equipment, because there's no "treadmill".

Ironically, I had more issues with item levels in FF14 when starting out, because I exclusively did the main story during early Shadowbringers and hit progress walls, because I was below the item level requirements for ARR patch content dungeons. But that was a positive thing in itself, because that way I learned to care about Roulettes and Tomestones.

Also, I don't get what this always is about new players feeling the need to compete with the top crust as quickly as possible. There are metric tons of content all over the place. Just enjoy that and get to know the game and see whether you like it or not.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

No my point is veteran player don't realize being a new player now is different then being a new player 6+ years ago.

It is different: it's probably quite a bit easier. But I doubt veteran players don't realize that -not as a general rule, at least.

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

The fact that some people still recommend an obsolete gem shop item (runecrafter salvage kit) for new players

Who, where? As far as I'm aware, most of the time salvagers are being mentioned at all, it's with the convenience of not having to restock them in mind. Now and in the past.

Is this really just turning into some "I managed to receive an advice I dislike from someone" now? Even if someone gave a bad advice... so what? That always happened and will happen. Here and anywhere else. I'm still not sure what this has to do with being a new player or it somehow being hard to get into the game.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

It has never been easier to start GW2.

Wrong. It has been as the game released:), but i get your point.

3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

With every new expansion, they bundle up the previous ones. Nowadays you can buy the whole game for a fraction of the price we paid back at launch.

Matter of perspective. Old expansions should become cheaper anyways. Also untrue if you consider Living world content. If I want to buy a friend all the Content i have i have to pay more then i did myself for my content, because i got LW mostly for free.

3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Gearing Up

All true, never said something to the contrary.

3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Mounts
You can acquire the mounts in the expansions. But some of the acquisition methods have been adjusted. Skyscale was nerfed and got even a 2nd option via SotO, Turtle was adjusted as well. The price-tags for the PoF ones have never been changed, although making money became significantly easier over the years. 

Yes, but i think the original Skyscale quest should be even shorter. Turtle was actually fine even before the adjustment i think, but i also to strikes so who know. My rationale here is The server shut down eventually. Investing heavily in Skyscale to fly it for 10 years is different then flying it for 6 years. The games has an expiring date, which each passing year any form of quality of life becomes less useful, because it a year less you can get out of it. There is a lot of content in the game probably more then a new player could consume before the server shut down. When stuff got padded to keep the current up to date player busy, that padding should probably get reduced years later when that is no longer needed.

3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Unlocking Elite Specializations
There are plenty of public HP runs for new players. In addition, there are options to unlock the Hero Points easier via WvW and Gemstore (recently added). When you do it with a group/friend/alone, you get to learn your class better and loot for completing your tasks.

Mixed feelings about that. Never needed trains myself, i see them sometimes in HoT. On Occasions some people are left behind because the trains assumed a springer. On a more positive side i'm quite happy that Elite specs are unlocked with Purchase of the expansion and can be unlocked with any Hero Point.

3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

No Story-Locking
With every Expansion and LW/DLC, you can start playing instantly. All you need is a level 80 character and the content unlocked on your account. In addition, you can access every map you want with the help of other players (if you own that content), even if you have not reached it in the story yet.

True, which is nice. If somebody cares about story they kinda forced to buy LW's. Not a fan of this. Like i said previous the game is actually more expensive for a new player then myself, thanks to LW.

3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

I see the proof every day. We meet people in our guilds, instanced content or open world, who have started with GW2 recently. Yet they have easily acquired everything to play on the same level as we do. And we help them as well. Because we know most of the tricks already. There are tons of information-sources, streamers/content-creators, guides and guilds/communities which are dedicated to helping new players.

Well you can't see player that aren't there now can you:). Obvious there are people who succeed in what they set out to do. There also people who a born in slums becoming millionaires, doesn't mean i throw my kid in the street and hope for the best. There is tons of stuff, but most of it is community driven. There should be some changes to  the game. You can tell people gathering 90% of the nodes of the game is not worth the effort, Home nodes are just flavor that lose you money, Dungeon are basically death content or my favorite before they come to there senses an changed mounts: "Do the first mission of PoF to have a mount early". If you ever explained a noob guild mate how to gear their character you know, if you gone one step behind " buy exotic gear it is dirt cheap".

Edited December 3, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[ShadowStep.3640]

Oh boy, 

Ok let me give you my example since i fall under the "new player from long ago" category. I played during vanilla gw2 until the release of HoT then just came back this summer. So like 10 year gap. My primary content i play with is story/OW meta etc and WvW. I have primarily exotic armor on my toons since ascended is better but not necessary for the game modes i play. I bought HoT, PoF, EoD, and recently SOTO but have only played through the latter two which means i have on my account the raptor and springer from EoD (which were easy) and the sky scale from unlocking it in Soto. I have more than enough ascended armor in my bank to max maybe 2 characters outright but im lazy lol. Outside of the fact that i haven't finished the first two expacs i dont feel behind. Sure I have zero legendary items whereby most longtime players have multiple but thats a long term goal for me. I recently spent like 500 gold to buy enough gems to get the stargaze skin for my sky scale. That was progress for me since its what i wanted to do. The thing with GW2 is that, for the most part, it lets you do what you want to do. My other favorite MMO, SWTOR, has a linear progression with limited ways to play. Maybe your beef is valid for other MMOs but this one is the easiest by far to accommodate new players due to its accessibility, replay-ability, and easy gear gate. 

Now to go continue hoarding materials so i can make the epic jump from full exotic to full legendary gear in one go.

[SlayerXX.7138]

33 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Who, where? As far as I'm aware, most of the time salvagers are being mentioned at all, it's with the convenience of not having to restock them in mind. Now and in the past.

Is this really just turning into some "I managed to receive an advice I dislike from someone" now? Even if someone gave a bad advice... so what? That always happened and will happen. Here and anywhere else. I'm still not sure what this has to do with being a new player or it somehow being hard to get into the game.

No you don't understand. The game changed so much runecrafter is a obsolete item now. Not for me i bought it quite a while ago. If you don't understand tell me where you struggle and i can explain the math to you. For quite some while now and the foreseeable future runecrafter is an obsolete purchase if you don't own it already. For new players opening greens and salvaging them is an obsolete game mechanic now. If you not already set up with Unlimited extraction contract, Runecrafter, and full enough magic find, the only reason to open greens is to lose money.

[Linken.6345]

19 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Snip

Matter of perspective. Old expansions should become cheaper anyways. Also untrue if you consider Living world content. If I want to buy a friend all the Content i have i have to pay more then i did myself for my content, because i got LW mostly for free.

Snip

Please explain how 100 bucks for complete collection ( that is the one with hot/pof, eod and season 2-5 right?) and 25 soto.

Is more expensive then 60 core, 50 hot, 30 pof, 30 eod and 25 soto.

Edit

Sniped and old expansions are cheaper already.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Qys.5937]

I'm not a completely new person as I played the original game and the beginning of HoT before I took a long break but this game is not any harder now for a new player than it was when it started. The most confusion I see is with how gear works particularly all the stat combinations. This game is so different than the other popular, long running MMO's it can be an adjustment. It took me awhile to wrap my head around the fact that it was ok that getting gear could be grindy because it's not going to be obsolete in 4 months. Sure the mounts make things easier but everything I needed to do can be done without them prior to the expansion that introduced them. So much account bound stuff that only had to be done once. My biggest advice to new players is take a deep breath, take your time and just play. All that stuff you see the veteran players running around with will be there and learning how to play your class, time dodges and when to cleanse will mean more to combat success that just having better gear. 

[Sobx.1758]

37 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

No you don't understand. The game changed so much runecrafter is a obsolete item now. Not for me i bought it quite a while ago. If you don't understand tell me where you struggle and i can explain the math to you. For quite some while now and the foreseeable future runecrafter is an obsolete purchase if you don't own it already. For new players opening greens and salvaging them is an obsolete game mechanic now. If you not already set up with Unlimited extraction contract, Runecrafter, and full enough magic find, the only reason to open greens is to lose money.

Shifting the unlimited use item's profitability isn't a sign of "how much the game changed" nor -still- does it influence new player's experience. If it's irrelevant to anything here, please try bringing up something relevant instead. I don't need you to do any math for me because -surprise?- I also have access to resources like fastfarming, just like anyone else. It still remains irrelevant to new players experience.

37 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

f you don't understand tell me where you struggle

Without change, what I struggle with is noticing the relevance of what you're writing with "new player experience". What is that point(?) about runecrafter's even supposed to be? That the new players aren't as strongly encouraged to throw gems at yet another gemstore item? And that's... supposed to be the example for "veterns not understanding the struggles of new players"? How?

I hope this clears what's confusing for me so you can finally move away from "explaining" to me the profitability of runecrafter's gemstore item (which I didn't even question btw) and instead get back to the point you were trying to make when you've started the thread.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Parasite.5389]

1 minute ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

100 bucks i a lot for game, if you can buy better experience for less cash? Same is true for most mmo, that's why they all struggle to get new player and die. WoW also wants you to buy everything  and bleeds player Since the Lich king. Like how did I not answer you question?

you were asked "How is $100 more expensive than $195+" and instead of answering that, you go on a some bizzare off-topic rant about singleplayer games and steam sales

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

you were asked "How is $100 more expensive than $195+" and instead of answering that, you go on a some bizzare off-topic rant about singleplayer games and steam sales

Ahhh that is what you mean. Thing lose value over time, when technology progresses and it becomes easier and cheaper to make the same or better product. Comparing games Prices from 10 or 5 years ago with today prices is a laughable statement in the gaming scene that progressed by leaps and bounds. I just named example of great games i personally played. If you want an MMO example i can give you Everquest. You only pay for the latest expansion rest is free. I just didn't play that myself so i didn't mention it.

Edited December 3, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

20% expansions sale to happen

I guess you missed the Black Friday sales.  🤦‍♂️

[AlenaVolkova.8179]

I don't understand the problem, because the gears and wealth are supposed to be easier to accumulate with this SotO change, as you just need mere weeks, and you can already scoop up everything in Wizard's Vault. Such change is big benefit to both newbie and old players.

 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

It's an upfront cost of 100 bucks for a in parts old game. Do you know how many slightly outdated great games i can buy. Not good, GREAT. Metal gear rising was an absolute trip for 4.99€. Portal 2 for 1.63€ is literally stealing content out of Gabes Mouth. Dragon dogma Dark Arisen 4.79. Middle earth shadow of war 6 bucks. Sure they were all deals, but

Ah, "deals" -in that case Hot+PoF is 7,50€; EoD is is 15€ and SotO is 25. So 47,5€  actually. It's probably more content too.

And I'm taking a wild guess (although not that wild) that whatever you listed isn't actively worked on and nobody remembers the last update they received. News flash though: if you'd rather play singleplayer games then do exactly that. I think it's worth mentioning that as far as I'm aware, it looks like for now irrelevant comparisons is the general theme of this thread.

 

And while we're at it, quick reminder that after receiving explanation for "where I struggle" (...with what you're saying), you didn't clear anything out.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758