What if I told you there is an actual "I Win" combo in this game that makes it pointless for the target to have a keyboard? 🧪🐤💀

[Vepa.6073]

Let me ask you a question, if this was so OP then why there aren't more engi roaming and most of the roamers  are thief and wilbenders?

All is see you posted, ppl had some criticism, and you just wanna stick to your point no matter what.

Move on... 

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

If it's effective against block and damage-immunity playstyles, by extension it's effective against playstyles lacking block and damage-immunity.  Which is to say it's effective against everything, lol.  And why wouldn't it be?  As long as the Magnet hits, it's game over.  And there are a number of ways to maximize the odds of Magnet hitting: approaching a distracted target, approaching from out of their view, using stealth, or a combination thereof.

I'm struggling to see how this combo would ever fail unless used against someone actively fighting the engi, with opportunity to see the telegraph.

I'm really only talking about Moa, I'm all for a delay after you magnet someone.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Mell.4873

[KrHome.1920]

@ Video:

Nice combo from that engi. One of the very few ways to pin down a teef these days. I like it.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Nobody likes getting moa'd, but your post exaggerates the effectiveness and brokenness of magnet and Toss Elixir X. If you've ever played magnet/moa Engi, you'd know how many random variables can completely negate your combo. Random stab, mag aura, blinds, aegis procs, etc. The real problem with combos like this is that you can hide the animation of magnet by pre-casting it without a target and then targeting your enemy right before the cast completes. There's honestly a conversation to be had about skill retargeting and animation hiding as a whole, including being able to hide really high-impact skills like Mesmer moa behind stealth. But for the core Engi meme combo, just know that if they are running a oneshot moa nade build, they can only be running one stunbreak max. If there is one harassing you in a group setting, they are an easy focus target. If they catch you with your pants down, them wrecking you is not a capability unique to that build. It just feels more annoying to die against since you lose access to your normal skills. Personally I just consider it one of the necessary evils to the game mode to help counter all the broken stuff that exists. 

[KrHome.1920]

32 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Nobody likes getting moa'd, but your post exaggerates the effectiveness and brokenness of magnet and Toss Elixir X. If you've ever played magnet/moa Engi, you'd know how many random variables can completely negate your combo. Random stab, mag aura, blinds, aegis procs, etc. The real problem with combos like this is that you can hide the animation of magnet by pre-casting it without a target and then targeting your enemy right before the cast completes. There's honestly a conversation to be had about skill retargeting and animation hiding as a whole, including being able to hide really high-impact skills like Mesmer moa behind stealth. But for the core Engi meme combo, just know that if they are running a oneshot moa nade build, they can only be running one stunbreak max. If there is one harassing you in a group setting, they are an easy focus target. If they catch you with your pants down, them wrecking you is not a capability unique to that build. It just feels more annoying to die against since you lose access to your normal skills. Personally I just consider it one of the necessary evils to the game mode to help counter all the broken stuff that exists. 

That's exactly how it's done. Scenarios like this can happen and are annoying, but the game is in a state where you can fight broken mechanics (e.g. teef and all its mobility and daggerstorm) only with other broken mechanics.

The interesting part is what you do, after this has happened. Focussing that engi everytime it shows up again until he changes his build is a good start.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I'm really only talking about Moa, I'm all for a delay after you magnet someone.

There is a delay when you magnet someone. After you activate the skill there is an audio and visual cue, the pull happens at the end of the 1.25s channel. The only way to disguise this is to do it from stealth or with a retarget. It will also fail if the target becomes obstructed and remains so at the end of the channel. As others have said, this is most effective as an ambush against a distracted or otherwise unaware target.

Thief player is just salty because they are used to being able to escape any situation they like with little risk. All this is doing is highlighting their lack of situational awareness and a weakness in their skills. Normally when caught unaware, even if stunned and immobilized a thief can shadowstep away to break stun, use their dodge to break movement impairment (if Daredevil), and then stealth/gain distance to drop combat and reengage, or flee.

Getting pulled and moa'd kicks the crutches out from under them, opening them up to being punished for having such low health as well.

You can't build a glass cannon and expect to always be the cannon.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Remus Darkblight.1673

[Mell.4873]

47 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

There is a delay when you magnet someone. After you activate the skill there is an audio and visual cue, the pull happens at the end of the 1.25s channel. The only way to disguise this is to do it from stealth or with a retarget. It will also fail if the target becomes obstructed and remains so at the end of the channel. As others have said, this is most effective as an ambush against a distracted or otherwise unaware target.

Thief player is just salty because they are used to being able to escape any situation they like with little risk. All this is doing is highlighting their lack of situational awareness and a weakness in their skills. Normally when caught unaware, even if stunned and immobilized a thief can shadowstep away to break stun, use their dodge to break movement impairment (if Daredevil), and then stealth/gain distance to drop combat and reengage, or flee.

Getting pulled and moa'd kicks the crutches out from under them, opening them up to being punished for having such low health as well.

You can't build a glass cannon and expect to always be the cannon.

Fair I only know how Moa works I don't think I have ever seen anyone Magnet me in WvW. 

I play a Carrion condition bombing Soulbeast but I can easily be picked off it I don't escape early. It can be frustrating but that is my game, killing people with 2k Bleed ticks. 

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

There is a delay when you magnet someone

You guys know he could've used a stun break while being pulled due to that delay too, right.

[KrHome.1920]

47 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You guys know he could've used a stun break while being pulled due to that delay too, right.

You can easily dodge a magnet that shows the usual telegraph. You can then stunbreak the pull if you have been too slow for the dodge.

But if you are pulled without any telegraph out of stealth, then the moa cast time is so low, that it is impossible to stunbreak the magnet first AND THEN dodge the moa for a person with even above average reflexes.

When you stunbreak and only eat the moa, then there is the second stun of the engi which would make sure that you can't use moa skill 5 + 2 to run away.

Just watch the video on page 1. That engi knows what he is doing.

Edited December 12, 2023 by KrHome.1920

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

48 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You guys know he could've used a stun break while being pulled due to that delay too, right.

From the update in the original post:

Once Magnet hits, the target has literally a fraction of a second to react with a stun-break before getting Moa'd.  In the first case in the video, that window was a fleeting 0.5 seconds, determined by counting frames.  Anyone who thinks their reaction time would have been adequate when factoring in latency, render lag, and sheer surprise factor is deluding themselves.

Also this:

10 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

But if you are pulled without any telegraph out of stealth, then the moa cast time is so low, that it is impossible to stunbreak the magnet first AND THEN dodge the moa for a person with even above average reflexes.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

2 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Thief player is just salty because they are used to being able to escape any situation they like with little risk. All this is doing is highlighting their lack of situational awareness and a weakness in their skills. Normally when caught unaware, even if stunned and immobilized a thief can shadowstep away to break stun, use their dodge to break movement impairment (if Daredevil), and then stealth/gain distance to drop combat and reengage, or flee.

Getting pulled and moa'd kicks the crutches out from under them, opening them up to being punished for having such low health as well.

You can't build a glass cannon and expect to always be the cannon.

The thief stigma is real.  I could have been on any other class I main that day and the outcome would almost certainly have been identical.  The only difference would be a lot less irrelevant noise in the responses.

Everyone gets caught by surprise from time-to-time.  A stranger humbly shows two instances where they got caught and you and others make sweeping assumptions about their overall awareness and skill.  What if those were the only two times something like that has happened out of hundreds of hours?  For the record, this was the first time I've experienced the Magnet + Moa combo specifically--thousands of hours into WvW.  There's a first time for everyone, and it probably feels pretty similar: The only thing more stupefying than the total skill bar disable is the fact it can be done.  Until that day, I honestly did not know it was a thing.

There are such things as dumb, degenerate, unhealthy, toxic skill interactions in complex game systems.  In my opinion, this is one of them.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Thanks for one of the few constructive posts so far.

4 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Nobody likes getting moa'd, but your post exaggerates the effectiveness and brokenness of magnet and Toss Elixir X. If you've ever played magnet/moa Engi, you'd know how many random variables can completely negate your combo. Random stab, mag aura, blinds, aegis procs, etc.

These defensives hinder any attack, not just Magnet + Elixir X.  Could say the same about any other "instagib" combo.  The beauty about these combos is they are almost always launched with the element of surprise, meaning the attacker has the luxury of seeing their target's status and whether these defensives are active.  Among these combos however, I tend to think Magnet + Moa has one of the highest success rates because of how uniquely powerful it is in totally disabling the skill bar.  Any other stun situation can be readily broken as long as there's an available stunbreak.

4 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

The real problem with combos like this is that you can hide the animation of magnet by pre-casting it without a target and then targeting your enemy right before the cast completes. There's honestly a conversation to be had about skill retargeting and animation hiding as a whole, including being able to hide really high-impact skills like Mesmer moa behind stealth.

^ Food for thought for all the "just dodge" and "should have seen it coming" apologists.

4 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

If they catch you with your pants down, them wrecking you is not a capability unique to that build. It just feels more annoying to die against since you lose access to your normal skills.

Yes, but total disabling of the skill bar when you otherwise have stunbreaks slotted is unique to this build (and perhaps the Mesmer equivalent).  This is the unhealthy interaction I find problematic.

4 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Personally I just consider it one of the necessary evils to the game mode to help counter all the broken stuff that exists. 

Which is why I'm not against CCs like Magnet, or Moa, or "instagib" combos.  However, I am, as a general principle, against situations that completely deprive players of the ability to react.  I believe this is one of them.  The only silver lining is that this meme combo is probably so uncommon it doesn't have much impact outside of niche situations like this, and probably why it remains to this day.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

5 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

The thief stigma is real.  I could have been on any other class I main that day and the outcome would almost certainly have been identical.  The only difference would be a lot less irrelevant noise in the responses.

Everyone gets caught by surprise from time-to-time.  A stranger humbly shows two instances where they got caught and you and others make sweeping assumptions about their overall awareness and skill.  What if those were the only two times something like that has happened out of hundreds of hours?  For the record, this was the first time I've experienced the Magnet + Moa combo specifically--thousands of hours into WvW.  There's a first time for everyone, and it probably feels pretty similar: The only thing more stupefying than the total skill bar disable is the fact it can be done.  Until that day, I honestly did not know it was a thing.

There are such things as dumb, degenerate, unhealthy, toxic skill interactions in complex game systems.  In my opinion, this is one of them.

Sounds pretty salty to me.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Just now, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Sounds pretty salty to me.

You should probably leave this discussion since you clearly have nothing useful to add at this point.

[Dawdler.8521]

90% of the magnet pulls end up one of 3 ways:

- The target gets pulled and warps behind you making you miss any follow up attack (especially blowtorch has a happy tendency to go on full cd doing absolutely nothing)

- The target twitches a little or gets pulled a third of the way due to insta-stunbreak.

- The target use one of its millions evades.

And in any case you toss moa after a pulled target there is a 50/50 chance the elixir land at you feet or where the pulled target was when you started pulling because the delay and speed on engineer skills is somewhere between a snail glued to a wall and a turtle with one leg.

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

But if you are pulled without any telegraph out of stealth

Right.  Which isn't an issue of the skill combos being used here, rather an issue of the telegraph getting bugged out with the re-targeting trick.  I realize it's close to impossible to react with a stunbreak _if one is not ready for it_.  Most of the time Magnet is so buggy it's more that the engineer lucked out in grabbing this thief.  I'm not so fast myself, but I've been able to stunbreak out of guardian spear pulls before where I couldn't see the spear either due to so much rendering clutter.

[TexZero.7910]

Lmao bad thief gets destroyed and post proof.

Classic case of ego inflation causing emotional damage.

[urd.8306]

You must understand that even mediocre or bad thieves aren't getting destroyed very often because class mechanics give them a handful of "out of jail free cards". This must be a totally new experience and of course frightening.

[ArchonWing.9480]

I was going to post a attempt at wit about how bursting from stealth is noninteractive and the whole situation is ironic due to the class most famous for such a thing got killed.

However, the problem is that OP never even looked behind themselves, and therefore I can't even tell if it was a stealth attack. In the first thing they were zoomed in the doorway. and couldn't even see either side and, in the other, engaged vs multiple enemies close by with no backup. This isn't an issue of "just dodge lol" or "use these skills"  because it doesn't help in this situation. They just got themselves in a vulnerable place which carries certain risk. The real truth is they would have been deleted regardless of their opponent's build given how squishy they were.

 

This is not to disparage anyone's skill, because it has little to do with the ability to execute. If someone were to sneak up behind me like that, I too would most likely die unless I was running full cele/minstrel and even that carries some chance of death. It's just that I would avoid these situations like the plague.

I mean I too died to a (double) moa to this week, and I definitely thought it was BS because they had a coordinated CC follow up. But it was also because I tried to attack like 10 people and sometimes you die when you do that.

 

And I am sure the Engi in question has a working build.  This is more setting of realistic expectations.  So don't come at me with "I'm sure you don't ever die like this!" because sometimes it does. I just don't need to explain myself.

 

 

It should be noted that Toss Elxir S's stealth isn't that long unless they're hiding around a corner. I suppose they could do funky stuff like blast smoke fields but that would be telegraphed and all that smoke blasting should be fairly evident if you play thief a bit.....

 

 

Though as it seems the thread is closed to advice, I will refrain from giving any and I see people have offered better advice anyways. I did note that engi is on my server, so i have a few questions to ask. Also, guess what I'm going to be running this week. 🙂

Edited December 12, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Goosekilla.2796]

Does your dodge button not work? Not if immobilized I know, but then the engi has invested time/skills to 1) moa, 2) daze, and 3) immobilize. If they have all three of those effects overlapping for multiple seconds, plus doing damage, then yeah they've invested their entire skillbar into downing you. They deserve to get the lucky one-shot. I promise you, if they're running a set-up that does that, then they're also getting demolished constantly in their adventures elsewhere around the map. That's the part you didn't see and are missing from the balance equation.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

90% of the magnet pulls end up one of 3 ways:

- The target gets pulled and warps behind you making you miss any follow up attack (especially blowtorch has a happy tendency to go on full cd doing absolutely nothing)

- The target twitches a little or gets pulled a third of the way due to insta-stunbreak.

- The target use one of its millions evades.

And in any case you toss moa after a pulled target there is a 50/50 chance the elixir land at you feet or where the pulled target was when you started pulling because the delay and speed on engineer skills is somewhere between a snail glued to a wall and a turtle with one leg.

Then I--I mean the thief in that vid--must be the unluckiest person.

Still, I want to give this filthy combo a try myself... for science.  Do I win if I cause a Willbender main to make a thread? 😛

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

I appreciate your constructive thoughts so will attempt to reply accordingly.  Hope you're seated comfortably lol.

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I was going to post a attempt at wit about how bursting from stealth is noninteractive and the whole situation is ironic due to the class most famous for such a thing got killed.

It seems very few can resist coloring their response based on the class I happened to be on that day (I play every one dailly, while maining several in WvW).  You're far from alone in that regard.  Thief Derangement Syndrome (not to be confused with any other form of "TDS") is clearly very consuming.  It totally blinds sufferers to bigger issues, and there is no refocusing their attention once their derangement is triggered.  Just see the two responses prior to yours.

But thanks for not focusing your response primarily on the class I was on.  This isn't my first rodeo presenting an objectively unhealthy issue on the forum that gets derailed by the fact I was on my thief at the time.  Anyone familiar with my "Warclaw to downstate in a fraction of a second" topic might understand.  (But even that issue isn't as bad as the Magnet + Moa combo, as it is actually humanly possible to stunbreak.)

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

However, the problem is that OP never even looked behind themselves, and therefore I can't even tell if it was a stealth attack.

I'm going to kindly remind people that for the sake of modern attention spans, the clip was deliberately brief.  It shows the final seconds before the encounters, not the many minutes prior which would show how much I swivel the camera.  In fact, I have "look behind" keybound and use it all the time.  But guess what?  Nobody, and I do mean nobody, can monitor 360 degrees around them at every given moment.  At any given moment, as in real life, we are blind in over a 180-degree radius around us in the horizontal, not to mention the vertical.  Credit to the engi in this clip for launching his ambushes at just the right moment, during gaps in my camera panning.

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

In the first thing they were zoomed in the doorway. and couldn't even see either side

How to explain... First, I always have the camera fully zoomed out.  Always.  (Plus maximum field of view in the settings.)  But at times, as we know, camera-collision in tight quarters, like the open SMC gate force the camera in.  Why did I have to position my character in the corner there?  That would be a function of having to spam piercing Death's Judgments on the row of rams.  Something I was doing for a minute or two before the engi ambush.  Kitten me for trying to help deter the SMC invasion impactfully by closing the gate rather than freeloading kills off the nearby blob fight, right?  No good deed goes unpunished?  Guess I really am a bad thief.

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

The real truth is they would have been deleted regardless of their opponent's build given how squishy they were.

Beg to differ.  For the most part, I can now deal with all the other surprise "1-shot" combos out there, and not just on my thief.  However, this was my first experience with Magnet + Moa, and it is different from all others because it completely locks out the skill bar.  It doesn't care if you have dodges and stunbreaks.  That is the key point I keep repeating but few seem to recognize.

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

This is not to disparage anyone's skill, because it has little to do with the ability to execute. If someone were to sneak up behind me like that, I too would most likely die unless I was running full cele/minstrel and even that carries some chance of death. It's just that I would avoid these situations like the plague.

I mean I too died to a (double) moa to this week, and I definitely thought it was BS because they had a coordinated CC follow up. But it was also because I tried to attack like 10 people and sometimes you die when you do that.

Perhaps you should have stuck to your rule and avoided the 1v10 like the plague. 😛  I hear you though.  90% of the countless hours I spend on WvW I'm that cautious, practically paranoid, player constantly swiveling the camera 360 degrees.  You should see me claiming a ruin.  You'd get dizzy from the view.  Unfortunately, people are quick to make assumptions off of 20 seconds of footage edited to show moments of defeat.

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Though as it seems the thread is closed to advice, I will refrain from giving any and I see people have offered better advice anyways.

Not at all closed to constructive feedback like yours.  Would just be nice if people could muster the self-control not to tunnel-vision the class I was on.  Which, after all, is completely irrelevant to the issue.  As I keep saying, one could mentally substitute my thief with any class of their choice and it wouldn't matter.  This combo would still be unhealthy.

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I did note that engi is on my server, so i have a few questions to ask. Also, guess what I'm going to be running this week. 🙂

I'm pretty sure I've seen them before too.  I'm sure they make a living of what they do.  I have nothing against them.  My issue is with the unhealthy game mechanic.  Almost everyone is abusing something broken.  Just some more than others.

Happy Moa-ing!

[ArchonWing.9480]

16 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

I'm going to kindly remind people that for the sake of modern attention spans, the clip was deliberately brief.  It shows the final seconds before the encounters, not the many minutes prior which would show how much I swivel the camera.  In fact, I have "look behind" keybound and use it all the time.  But guess what?  Nobody, and I do mean nobody, can monitor 360 degrees around them at every given moment.  At any given moment, as in real life, we are blind in over a 180-degree radius around us in the horizontal, not to mention the vertical.  Credit to the engi in this clip for launching his ambushes at just the right moment, during gaps in my camera panning.

I mean, in that case you should pick some better clips. If people have short attention spawns, it's unlikely they would be objective anyways. Although IMO it didn't take long for me to see what was going on.

But I hope you realize I'm not only criticizing the camera control. That's actually just a small portion of the issue. It's more that you weren't alert when you were in a spot that was highly vulnerable to attack.  Not only are incoming enemies to SMC going to force you up the stairs, but you are on a build that that needs shadowsteps to survive and LoS targeting is infamously wonky when trying to go up them.

As a thief, that's definitely something crucial to pay attention to. See, there's much more to pointing out your class then "lol thief get rekt", etc.

I'm very well aware that you may have died anyways, or whatever. But maybe there's some instances where you survive. Even if you survive 1/5 of these, it'll make for better gameplay.

16 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Not at all closed to constructive feedback like yours.  Would just be nice if people could muster the self-control not to tunnel-vision the class I was on.  Which, after all, is completely irrelevant to the issue.  As I keep saying, one could mentally substitute my thief with any class of their choice and it wouldn't matter.  This combo would still be unhealthy.

Trust me, I did substitute classes, which is why I said I would have died in a similar spot.

Though it is nice that you are trying to improve your gameplay. You'll get there eventually.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

10 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mean, in that case you should pick some better clips.

I'm truly at a loss as to what would make for a "better" clip showing that Magnet + Moa's total disabling of the skill bar in less than a second is per se unhealthy (the point I'm trying to make).  I've already acknowledged that it's primarily effective against engaged or distracted targets from out of view.  But so is everything.  The difference is that had that Engi or any other player opened on me with any other CC combo, I would have at least stood a chance at surviving.  Because I'm built to deal with those: no less than 3 stunbreaks, and playing thief after all.  A mesmer stealth burst?  A Sic'Em ranger with LB4 knockdown?  A nade engi from stealth?  No problem.  Dodge when the shiny things show up, or if slow, stunbreak, then dodge.  Burst avoided.

17 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

you are on a build that that needs shadowsteps to survive and LoS targeting is infamously wonky when trying to go up them.

Don't I know it.  But I also run Blinding Powder.  The tragedy is I'm built to escape/survive, but this combo doesn't care about any of that.  I might as well have not been running stunbreaks at all.

19 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Even if you survive 1/5 of these, it'll make for better gameplay.

Better gameplay usually requires not being able to utterly disable your opponent's skillbar/disconnect their keyboard at the start of a "fight."

--

I said elsewhere that this combo is probably pretty uncommon.  It's my first experience with it anyway.  If I've taken one thing away from it, it's to be watchful for core engis.  Because why else would anyone play core engi other than to meme or troll? 😄

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Because why else would anyone play core engi other than to meme or troll? 😄

Same reason someone is silly enough to play core thief with elite weapons they can’t fully use or similar setups.