[PvE] Celestial stats in need of a trim.

[Leo G.4501]

40 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Yes okay, but nobody cares. No salty 12 year old deadeye will flood the forum with his tears cause you ganked him in dragonfall cause that is literally impossible.

and the same guy won’t cry around in the forum aswell cause you served him is backside in arcdps in this cm-fractal cause you won’t manage to do that with celestial (you just don’t) and ouside of it he doesn’t care.

ow is really big and it’s fun, i like it. But no measurment balancewise in this game takes ow into account, so playing cele in ow is irrelevant for this discussion.

we have 3 situations:

1) open world, see explanation above. Nobody cares balancewise. As long as everybody gets stuff done, it’s good. (And only between us: power reaper is way better and more effective than any cele build…)

2) instanced pve: cele is just inefficient there. Half of the stats are always wasted.

3) wvw. But the thread here isn’t about wvw (and again between the two of us, most wvw complaints come from people that can’t oneshot others and therefor think it’s unfair so cele needs a nerf lol.)

You sound like a tryhard. 

[CafPow.1542]

2 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

You sound like a tryhard. 

I’m not, i play cele myself in fractals aswell.

but stating facts is not tryhard. There is a reason you won’t find any celebuild at snowcrows. I ignore those facts for my personal gameplay and invite who and whatever cause i don’t care about the meta.

but i am realistic enough to accept the fact that there IS a meta and it exists for a reason.

 

PS: one day i might even understand what „arguments“ like yours are supposed to achieve in a discussion lol.

Edited February 2 by CafPow.1542

[Leo G.4501]

11 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

PS: one day i might even understand what „arguments“ like yours are supposed to achieve in a discussion lol.

Right back at your first post in the thread.

I'd "argue" there's even a discussion still occurring. It's basically a sadder version of preaching to the choir, really.

[CafPow.1542]

31 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Right back at your first post in the thread.

I'd "argue" there's even a discussion still occurring. It's basically a sadder version of preaching to the choir, really.

And i am participaring in said discussion. Problem?

i might sound like a tryhard for stating cele is a nonissue in pve. So what? Is this statement wrong? Try to explain why it is.

and even if we assume i am a tryhard, why would this -in any way- compromise my argument? It’s simply an ad hominem.

in the first part of my first post in this thread, i at least mentioned that i am joking. Besides that, i fail to see something wrong in it.

where you joking too or was it just a worthless ad hominem? Enlighten me.

[Buran.3796]

   ^ I overall agree with your points. You're right on the money. Only one thing:

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

1) open world, see explanation above. Nobody cares balancewise. As long as everybody gets stuff done, it’s good. (And only between us: power reaper is way better and more effective than any cele build…)

   I would like to known that build (and even better if you can link videos of that stuff working, like soloing hard bounties and similar), not because distrust but because I'm genuinely open to learn and change if I find out something more convenient. So please, enlighten me. 

[CafPow.1542]

56 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   ^ I overall agree with your points. You're right on the money. Only one thing:

   I would like to known that build (and even better if you can link videos of that stuff working, like soloing hard bounties and similar), not because distrust but because I'm genuinely open to learn and change if I find out something more convenient. So please, enlighten me. 

Ahm

Okay for some reason i can’t copy links in here on my phone.

visit guildjen.com. On pve open world builds you can see many builds. With the celestial tempest build, she solos the legendary hydra for example.

on the power reaper build is a video where vallun does stuff with it (he also plays a fractal).

basically every profession has a lot of build options with videos on it. I can post them when I’m at home (and don’t forget it ^^).

celestial, don’t get me wrong, is pretty awesome in open world. Like in wvw roaming you are alone, get attacked and need to self boon and self sustain so you make a lot of use of all the stats.

 

like in wvw, as soon as you enter content where other people support you, those stats are wasted. In a cele build, you never have as much power, precision and ferocity like on a zerker build. The total amount of stats is higher but toughness is useless when you wanna do damage, and you get healed and booned up by your support.

also: anet balances on certain thing. They (mostly) balance wvw on zergfights, and not on roaming so they don’t care to much if cele is strong in roaming. 

And in pve, they balance on strikes and fractals mostly. They don’t care to much about how good a build performs in the open world.

there might be some spikes or builds that outshine in an extreme way so they still might see a nerf but generally, they don’t.

 

PS: i cannot manage to kill legendary bounties alone, i am just not good enough for stuff like that. But i see that it is possible.

 

/e for the power reaper specifically:

his strength is, that he can almost boon everything he wants on full zerker (except alac), he is really tanky and safe, even on full glass, and he does tons of burst damage ao most things get killed in an instant.

always see that you get a lot of might, fury and quickness with spite and reapers onslaught.

you get a lot of protections / dmg reduce from your shroud, the shroud 3 and spectral armor.

etc. This is why reaper is, and always was a very high represented spec in the open world. It’s simple, yet fun to play and very safe and effective in what it does.

 

/edit 2

for the power reaper, there is a second video where vallun explains everything for this specific build. I higly recommend that 🙂

Edited February 2 by CafPow.1542

[Buran.3796]

59 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

visit guildjen.com. On pve open world builds you can see many builds. With the celestial tempest build, she solos the legendary hydra for example.

on the power reaper build is a video where vallun does stuff with it (he also plays a fractal).

[...]

PS: i cannot manage to kill legendary bounties alone, i am just not good enough for stuff like that. But i see that it is possible.

[...]

for the power reaper, there is a second video where vallun explains everything for this specific build. I higly recommend that 🙂

 

   I see. I thought you were talking in first hand. I've soloed  ~95% of the bounties/leg bounties in the game with cele Vindi, ~65% with power Vindi and I'm quite sure I can rack at least 80% with cele Herald and cele Mirage, to say a few.

   I've tried a lot of other builds including power, condi and celestial variants of Berserk, Spellbreaker, Bladesworn, Firebrand, Willbender, Daredevil, Deadeye, Mechanist, etc. And in my test, didn't found any evidence of power builds or glass canon viper ones being any better at soloing things once you start to put in the mix hard targets as some bounties or large events (soloables, not the ones which require more than a single player to deal with the mechanics of an event). Yes, those full dps builds mow regular crowds like weed, but things take a different path when you try to solo Butch or Seneb in full berserker. That's why I was asking: I have tons of videos doing those things in cele or trailblazer or carrion stats (including from myself), but there's very little examples done with glass canon builds. 

   I can put examples of a power DH soloing Queen Yidaxu in a bit less than 4 minutes, I can do it in cele Vindi around 4'45" (first attempt) but the time doesn't showcase the whole picture, since the DH player is very close to die plenty of times despite being a very good player, yet I'm fairly mediocre and my Vindi facetanks everything and my HP barely moves down. Moral of the story: celestial is underrated at PVE, definitely the best ascender gear to craft for a beginner. And is also meta in WvW, not only roaming:  at the moment, the strongest largest zergs usually run 3-4 support x squad, and that means 1-2 pure damage dealers at most. I guess being able to support + endure damage + delivering decent damage is one of the reasons cele is also popular there.

   

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

1) open world, see explanation above. Nobody cares balancewise. As long as everybody gets stuff done, it’s good. (And only between us: power reaper is way better and more effective than any cele build…)

2) instanced pve: cele is just inefficient there. Half of the stats are always wasted.

3) wvw. But the thread here isn’t about wvw (and again between the two of us, most wvw complaints come from people that can’t oneshot others and therefor think it’s unfair so cele needs a nerf lol.)

This is the heart of it right here. Celestial gear is great but not OP for certain builds in OW, not efficient in raids/fractals except for very few niche fractal builds, and even in wvw it's usually outclassed by other stats for the main encounters (ZvZ).

The only place celestial gear has a meta home is for roaming, and marauder or TB builds are just as good except on ele and mes. Celestial gear is really only OP against glass cannon gankers who realize they can't burst a cele build down and don't want to live with the high risk part of a high risk/high reward build. Everyone else has a counter for cele builds, so just learn to use them. Cele is the lower risk build, but no one is ever going to get ganked by one before they can execute their own counters... IF you were smart enough to bring some instead of going full glass. 😄

[AliamRationem.5172]

28 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

 

   I see. I thought you were talking in first hand. I've soloed  ~95% of the bounties/leg bounties in the game with cele Vindi, ~65% with power Vindi and I'm quite sure I can rack at least 80% with cele Herald and cele Mirage, to say a few.

   I've tried a lot of other builds including power, condi and celestial variants of Berserk, Spellbreaker, Bladesworn, Firebrand, Willbender, Daredevil, Deadeye, Mechanist, etc. And in my test, didn't found any evidence of power builds or glass canon viper ones being any better at soloing things once you start to put in the mix hard targets as some bounties or large events (soloables, not the ones which require more than a single player to deal with the mechanics of an event). Yes, those full dps builds mow regular crowds like weed, but things take a different path when you try to solo Butch or Seneb in full berserker. That's why I was asking: I have tons of videos doing those things in cele or trailblazer or carrion stats (including from myself), but there's very little examples done with glass canon builds. 

   I can put examples of a power DH soloing Queen Yidaxu in a bit less than 4 minutes, I can do it in cele Vindi around 4'45" (first attempt) but the time doesn't showcase the whole picture, since the DH player is very close to die plenty of times despite being a very good player, yet I'm fairly mediocre and my Vindi facetanks everything and my HP barely moves down. Moral of the story: celestial is underrated at PVE, definitely the best ascender gear to craft for a beginner. And is also meta in WvW, not only roaming:  at the moment, the strongest largest zergs usually run 3-4 support x squad, and that means 1-2 pure damage dealers at most. I guess being able to support + endure damage + delivering decent damage is one of the reasons cele is also popular there.

   

Much of the debate in this thread comes down to mismatched priorities.  You're talking about soloing legendary bounties.  This is an activity that most players simply don't care about and never engage in.  For the average player interested in such things, builds like Hizen's salvation cele vindi are attractive options because you almost can't die playing that build.  But even Hizen himself is getting <15k DPS with it.  What do you think average Joe is managing?  A lot of players prefer to deal more damage and don't consider legendary bounty solo-level sustain a priority at all.

[CafPow.1542]

8 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

 

   I see. I thought you were talking in first hand. I've soloed  ~95% of the bounties/leg bounties in the game with cele Vindi, ~65% with power Vindi and I'm quite sure I can rack at least 80% with cele Herald and cele Mirage, to say a few.

   I've tried a lot of other builds including power, condi and celestial variants of Berserk, Spellbreaker, Bladesworn, Firebrand, Willbender, Daredevil, Deadeye, Mechanist, etc. And in my test, didn't found any evidence of power builds or glass canon viper ones being any better at soloing things once you start to put in the mix hard targets as some bounties or large events (soloables, not the ones which require more than a single player to deal with the mechanics of an event). Yes, those full dps builds mow regular crowds like weed, but things take a different path when you try to solo Butch or Seneb in full berserker. That's why I was asking: I have tons of videos doing those things in cele or trailblazer or carrion stats (including from myself), but there's very little examples done with glass canon builds. 

   I can put examples of a power DH soloing Queen Yidaxu in a bit less than 4 minutes, I can do it in cele Vindi around 4'45" (first attempt) but the time doesn't showcase the whole picture, since the DH player is very close to die plenty of times despite being a very good player, yet I'm fairly mediocre and my Vindi facetanks everything and my HP barely moves down. Moral of the story: celestial is underrated at PVE, definitely the best ascender gear to craft for a beginner. And is also meta in WvW, not only roaming:  at the moment, the strongest largest zergs usually run 3-4 support x squad, and that means 1-2 pure damage dealers at most. I guess being able to support + endure damage + delivering decent damage is one of the reasons cele is also popular there.

   

Then i hope you can make it. Vallun does solo things in the video on his reaper.

my personal experience is just that i can kill stuff faster on my power reaper than on my cele tempest in open world. And it’s strange, some champions i only can solo with the reaper, some are only solo-able for me with the tempest. I do also lack the patience to trial and error and power through an encounter like that alone i have to admit.

 

the average joe player just fights himself through a dritzlewood meta tho, or farms berries in bitterfrost and for stuff like that, a power reaper is like a hot knife cutting through butter. ^^

[Buran.3796]

6 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

  What do you think average Joe is managing?  A lot of players prefer to deal more damage and don't consider legendary bounty solo-level sustain a priority at all.

  With the introduction of relics, weapon masteries and the 6th rune stat buff most of Hizen's builds hit 17-22k dps. Even playing average hitting 10k is easy, since are optimized to self generate 25 stacks of might and large amounts of vulnerability. The value for the casual player is that most of them get frustrated when they die facing a champion, a hero point, bounty or general event. Those builds provide enough sustain to remain alive and recover after making mistakes, and more time fighting allows players to learn the patterns of the attacks of foes.

   Over time fights become easier, damage goes up and they end soloing those foes. That cycle oftenly doesn't happen when players run World Bosses and similar events in glass canon builds and rely in team support to survive. The amount of players which go in downstate doing trivial things as Drakkar, Dragonstorm, Palawadan is sometimes shocking. I find amusing that people is worried because a event designed to be completed in less than 15 minutes takes sometimes more than 7 (because must be rushed), but at the same time they don't like the concept of  players soloing content designed for larger groups. As some Starcraft players say "a good rush wins matches, a good defense wins championships".

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

  With the introduction of relics, weapon masteries and the 6th rune stat buff most of Hizen's builds hit 17-22k dps. Even playing average hitting 10k is easy, since are optimized to self generate 25 stacks of might and large amounts of vulnerability. The value for the casual player is that most of them get frustrated when they die facing a champion, a hero point, bounty or general event. Those builds provide enough sustain to remain alive and recover after making mistakes, and more time fighting allows players to learn the patterns of the attacks of foes.

   Over time fights become easier, damage goes up and they end soloing those foes. That cycle oftenly doesn't happen when players run World Bosses and similar events in glass canon builds and rely in team support to survive. The amount of players which go in downstate doing trivial things as Drakkar, Dragonstorm, Palawadan is sometimes shocking. I find amusing that people is worried because a event designed to be completed in less than 15 minutes takes sometimes more than 7 (because must be rushed), but at the same time they don't like the concept of  players soloing content designed for larger groups. As some Starcraft players say "a good rush wins matches, a good defense wins championships".

Bingo.

12 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

And i am participaring in said discussion. Problem?

i might sound like a tryhard for stating cele is a nonissue in pve. So what? Is this statement wrong? Try to explain why it is.

and even if we assume i am a tryhard, why would this -in any way- compromise my argument? It’s simply an ad hominem.

in the first part of my first post in this thread, i at least mentioned that i am joking. Besides that, i fail to see something wrong in it.

where you joking too or was it just a worthless ad hominem? Enlighten me.

And no, you didn't allude to joking in your first post, that was your second post. The first post was just you being a sarcastic kitten. Nothing wrong with that, just don't dish it if you can't take it.

My point was mostly that, I don't think people here are in such disagreement that you need to over-extend trying to exert your position. That's what I mean when I say you're a tryhard. You're trying too hard to argue instead of discuss although I think in the last handful of post, you come off as less confrontational. Cele has its niche and shines in some areas which I don't doubt most agree with.

As for the OP's call to cull cele, I'm assuming it moreso a callout to under-used stat combos which I've been done with trying to argue for like 8 years ago...they just kept adding more stat combos, most of which no one really uses lol. Changing cele won't fix that. 

[CafPow.1542]

Just now, Leo G.4501 said:

Bingo.

And no, you didn't allude to joking in your first post, that was your second post. The first post was just you being a sarcastic kitten. Nothing wrong with that, just don't dish it if you can't take it.

My point was mostly that, I don't think people here are in such disagreement that you need to over-extend trying to exert your position. That's what I mean when I say you're a tryhard. You're trying too hard to argue instead of discuss although I think in the last handful of post, you come off as less confrontational. Cele has its niche and shines in some areas which I don't doubt most agree with.

As for the OP's call to cull cele, I'm assuming it moreso a callout to under-used stat combos which I've been done with trying to argue for like 8 years ago...they just kept adding more stat combos, most of which no one really uses lol. Changing cele won't fix that. 

Ah then i didn’t find my first post. Yes, i am sometimes a sarcastig kitten ^^
that‘s my only weakness tho.

all good tho. I tend to be very confrontational in arguments, but i intend (most of the time) to explain as simple and good as possible. Making lists is a way to structure the argument and make it easy to understand and i tend to do that, but i see how it can come off as tryharding in terms of discussing a topic. 
my goal is to give others an understanding of things, or learn myself if i misunderstand something. In the end, we all need to have fun. But sometimes i get very sarcastic cause i make fun of the whole „cele whining“ or similar saltmines that are in the forum and i think often, that’s silly and doesn’t serve the cause.

 

but yeah… anyway. I onow what you mean and accept that, you have a point. No offense taken and i hope, i didn’t offend you to much and we can call it a day 🙂

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  With the introduction of relics, weapon masteries and the 6th rune stat buff most of Hizen's builds hit 17-22k dps. Even playing average hitting 10k is easy, since are optimized to self generate 25 stacks of might and large amounts of vulnerability. The value for the casual player is that most of them get frustrated when they die facing a champion, a hero point, bounty or general event. Those builds provide enough sustain to remain alive and recover after making mistakes, and more time fighting allows players to learn the patterns of the attacks of foes.

   Over time fights become easier, damage goes up and they end soloing those foes. That cycle oftenly doesn't happen when players run World Bosses and similar events in glass canon builds and rely in team support to survive. The amount of players which go in downstate doing trivial things as Drakkar, Dragonstorm, Palawadan is sometimes shocking. I find amusing that people is worried because a event designed to be completed in less than 15 minutes takes sometimes more than 7 (because must be rushed), but at the same time they don't like the concept of  players soloing content designed for larger groups. As some Starcraft players say "a good rush wins matches, a good defense wins championships".

His cele vindi build from 3 months ago showed a 54 second kill time on mushroom queen.  That's <15k DPS, which is great for a build that has enough sustain to actually out-heal/barrier a champion that can kill a full DPS build pretty much instantly when her area effects explode.  Now if he dropped some of that sustain (he's using an entire trait line devoted to nothing but sustain in addition to cele gear!) I have no doubt he could hit 20k on a cele vindi build.  But then it might not be the "best" for soloing legendary bounties and such, which is what that build is designed for.

I'm not saying cele is low damage with the right build (Here's my cele weaver doing a champ solo at 24.7k DPS!).  But can I solo legendary bounties with this build?  Maybe an easy one like corpserazor? But for most I would take more sustain and for some I would need a lot more sustain.  And can this build keep up with bursty power builds for trash clearing and such?  Absolutely not.  It's still a condi build with about 75% of its damage coming from conditions that take a few seconds to get going.  It might be fast enough (for me it is), but that just illustrates the point that this comes down to priorities.  What is "best" for soloing legendary bounties may also be "good enough" for everything else or you might say "I don't care about soloing legendary bounties, so I don't need to run salvation trait line and use cele gear on my vindicator."

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm not saying cele is low damage with the right build (Here's my cele weaver doing a champ solo at 24.7k DPS!). 

   Good work! But you killed the chak in 34 seconds because your main condition source is fire, which is bursty as hell. Takes me ~1'22" to do the same with the Hzen build, but even If I wore full viper and damage traits I won't be able to do the same, since most of the Rev condi damage comes from torment, then burns and bleeds. At some moment I stack 42 torment, 2 confussion and 5 burns yet takes more than double to do the task.

   Now, with viper condition damage would go from 1265 to 1798 (+533), so ~40% more, and replacing Salvation would provide more damage...  but not x2 more! And I'll lose cleansing and  healing  on evade, plus barrier on boons, and boons will last less since not cele stats and also 759 less healing power and 639 less armor...  So hard bounties I can solo would probably break my skull. I'll stay at cele stats, thanks...

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Good work! But you killed the chak in 34 seconds because your main condition source is fire, which is bursty as hell. Takes me ~1'22" to do the same with the Hzen build, but even If I wore full viper and damage traits I won't be able to do the same, since most of the Rev condi damage comes from torment, then burns and bleeds. At some moment I stack 42 torment, 2 confussion and 5 burns yet takes more than double to do the task.

   Now, with viper condition damage would go from 1265 to 1798 (+533), so ~40% more, and replacing Salvation would provide more damage...  but not x2 more! And I'll lose cleansing and  healing  on evade, plus barrier on boons, and boons will last less since not cele stats and also 759 less healing power and 639 less armor...  So hard bounties I can solo would probably break my skull. I'll stay at cele stats, thanks...

 

 

I'm not trying to convince you to do anything differently, but as a point of fact burst is not applicable over these lengths of time.  Both builds will reach peak DPS and begin a series of ups and downs as cooldowns are recycled before the 34 second mark, although the 30 second Weave self cycle does have a larger impact than it would over longer periods.

A more significant factor is that your build has a large portion of its traits and skills devoted to support and sustain while my weaver is using a pretty standard full DPS condition build just with celestial gear.

This was also part of the debate.  While celestial is certainly capable of sustained DPS right up there with a lot of pure DPS builds in solo play and the baseline sustain is obviously better than full glass stats, it isn't enough on its own to do the things the OP finds problematic like solo 100CM unless you also use a high sustain build.