[PvE] Celestial stats in need of a trim.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Nah, celestial gear is intended to be the generic, versatile, safer stat set. It gives players options and stability without having to change builds. That's its job, and it does it well. That's why it's booster gear and not high performance gear. Except for a few builds that can make use of almost every stat with tight synergy, it's almost always going to be worse for any given task. 3-4 offensive stat gear always going to be better for DPS but squishier. 3-4 stat support gear is going to give better healing and boon duration but suck at dealing damage. Those are the tradeoffs of specialized gear. You specialize for higher performance, but there are risks or downsides. You use celestial gear when you want to play it safer or have more options. This is how life works, and I'm glad it's how the game works. I'm glad for these build options and gaming/life lessons.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

20 minutes ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Well its only something I recalled, I don't know how you'd get a useful measurement in a more PVE sense of things.

You really can't. 

Because beating an encounters is not the Problem. 

You could just use tank stats, that Cele also falls into, and tickle the Npc to death. 

Thats why speed is the only important measurement. 

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

12 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Sorry, I get the argument for WvW, but PvE?  Celestial is pretty niche outside of sustain builds for solo play and why would that be a problem?  I don't get it.

Not as niche as you think:

• lvl 80 boost characters start out with full exotic cele set
• despite what they think, raiders and instanced content runners are the niche group. Majority of player base is casual
• and they do a lot of open world content solo, having to take care of their own sustain, buffs and damage
   

My point is there are many specialized stat sets and each should have it's own place, not be made completely obsolete by one universal set.
Take Plaguedoctor for example on a condi/support build:

• cele has the same healing power and concentration, already equalling the support part
• it has 540 less condition damage, but 633 more expertise which is a highly valuable stat!
• it has 540 less vitality, but 633 more toughness
• it has 633 more power, precision and ferocity adding meaningful power damage to pad the already negligible condi output deficiency.

This should not be. If you virtually have no weakness, unlike with any other stat combos, then you also should not have any advantages over them in areas that they specialize in.
In fact their advantages should be significant enough to justify losing plenty of stats from picking them. And right now only purity of purpose gear does this.

[Beddo.1907]

Cele is a problem in WvW, where you can really use all stats it gives. In PvE? No.

In PvE, a dps has no use of vit, tough, hp and const stats and in most cases they don't need both power and condi stats. Support on the other hand needs to hit const to reach boon uptime and hp to improve efficiency, anything else is secondary. Having a tankier dps that does less damage or support that does more damage, but has gaps in boons, is not favoured in PvE.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

My point is there are many specialized stat sets and each should have it's own place, not be made completely obsolete by one universal set.
Take Plaguedoctor for example on a condi/support build:

• cele has the same healing power and concentration, already equalling the support part
• it has 540 less condition damage, but 633 more expertise which is a highly valuable stat!
• it has 540 less vitality, but 633 more toughness
• it has 633 more power, precision and ferocity adding meaningful power damage to pad the already negligible condi output deficiency.

I do think that you got a point here. But I also do think that the argument is a lot more relevant in the WvW context than it is in the PvE context.

Maybe it's because I'm an old school player but I still do think that, in PvE, offensive stats beat any amount of defensive stats. So for me, the pros of the celestial gear still don't beat a good old berserker gear, assassin gear or viper gear.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

10 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do think that you got a point here. But I also do think that the argument is a lot more relevant in the WvW context than it is in the PvE context.

Maybe it's because I'm an old school player but I still do think that, in PvE, offensive stats beat any amount of defensive stats. So for me, the pros of the celestial gear still don't beat a good old berserker gear, assassin gear or viper gear.

..which proves my very point. As I said in my last sentence - purity of purpose gear (which are all you mentioned) is not outclassed by celestial.
But anything between that and the Cele is in danger of becoming obsolete the more professions get power crept.
 

Edited January 24 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

..which proves my very point. As I said in my last sentence - purity of purpose gear (which are all you mentioned) is not outclassed by celestial.
But anything between that and the Cele is.

Gear whose purity of purpose is defense is outclassed by anything in PvE.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Not as niche as you think:

• lvl 80 boost characters start out with full exotic cele set
• despite what they think, raiders and instanced content runners are the niche group. Majority of player base is casual
• and they do a lot of open world content solo, having to take care of their own sustain, buffs and damage
   

My point is there are many specialized stat sets and each should have it's own place, not be made completely obsolete by one universal set.
Take Plaguedoctor for example on a condi/support build:

• cele has the same healing power and concentration, already equalling the support part
• it has 540 less condition damage, but 633 more expertise which is a highly valuable stat!
• it has 540 less vitality, but 633 more toughness
• it has 633 more power, precision and ferocity adding meaningful power damage to pad the already negligible condi output deficiency.

This should not be. If you virtually have no weakness, unlike with any other stat combos, then you also should not have any advantages over them in areas that they specialize in.
In fact their advantages should be significant enough to justify losing plenty of stats from picking them. And right now only purity of purpose gear does this.

Let me guess. 

You made a full set of plaguedoctor gear and didn't check before making it, that it is a terrible gear set. 

And now you are mad that the meme set of  Cele out classes it. 

 

Btw, getting Boon Duration from concentration is a horrible rate. 

Get direct Boon Duration instead from runes and Sigils is much better. 

 

Also, which class did you made plaguedoctor for? Necro probably. 

How someone could get the idea of trying to make Openworld Scourge work is beyond me when freaking giga Chad Reaper exists. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Not as niche as you think:

• lvl 80 boost characters start out with full exotic cele set
• despite what they think, raiders and instanced content runners are the niche group. Majority of player base is casual
• and they do a lot of open world content solo, having to take care of their own sustain, buffs and damage
   

My point is there are many specialized stat sets and each should have it's own place, not be made completely obsolete by one universal set.
Take Plaguedoctor for example on a condi/support build:

• cele has the same healing power and concentration, already equalling the support part
• it has 540 less condition damage, but 633 more expertise which is a highly valuable stat!
• it has 540 less vitality, but 633 more toughness
• it has 633 more power, precision and ferocity adding meaningful power damage to pad the already negligible condi output deficiency.

This should not be. If you virtually have no weakness, unlike with any other stat combos, then you also should not have any advantages over them in areas that they specialize in.
In fact their advantages should be significant enough to justify losing plenty of stats from picking them. And right now only purity of purpose gear does this.

Reading comprehension, my friend.  I said that celestial is "pretty niche outside of sustain builds for solo play", which would be those things you listed and not raids/fractals/strikes, where only some support builds ever use it.  My challenge to you was to explain why this is a problem.  I disagree with your reasoning on that.

First, celestial is a condi set.  It doesn't work very well for power builds.  It has the 3 required power damage stats, but the amounts are so low that it really kills your damage output and, unlike condi, power builds don't usually benefit significantly from the condition stats to offset that.

Even for condition builds, it isn't always the best option.  For example, when I solo champions I use either trailblazer or viper because the damage is better than celestial.  Either I need the sustain from trailblazer or I don't.  The only reason I would use celestial is if I need to sacrifice damage for more recovery (healing) than trailblazer is capable of.  But in practice I don't need to do that, so my celestial template gathers dust.

Even your example has holes in it.  If for some reason I wanted to play a condition damage healer in open world, celestial might be the best option for some builds, but not all of them.  Builds that rely heavily on a single condition would do better damage using a rune to compensate for the lost expertise.  Some guardian builds work for this, but you can do it with elementalist as well.

Do we need to continue?  It's not a universal best option as you claim.  What it is is a passable-to-good option for most builds that has plenty of sustain.  This makes it a good choice for the boost, but again, not necessarily the best all-around.

  

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

9 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Reading comprehension, my friend.  I said that celestial is "pretty niche outside of sustain builds for solo play", which would be those things you listed and not raids/fractals/strikes, where only some support builds ever use it.  My challenge to you was to explain why this is a problem.  I disagree with your reasoning on that.

First, celestial is a condi set.  It doesn't work very well for power builds.  It has the 3 required power damage stats, but the amounts are so low that it really kills your damage output and, unlike condi, power builds don't usually benefit significantly from the condition stats to offset that.

Even for condition builds, it isn't always the best option.  For example, when I solo champions I use either trailblazer or viper because the damage is better than celestial.  Either I need the sustain from trailblazer or I don't.  The only reason I would use celestial is if I need to sacrifice damage for more recovery (healing) than trailblazer is capable of.  But in practice I don't need to do that, so my celestial template gathers dust.

Even your example has holes in it.  If for some reason I wanted to play a condition damage healer in open world, celestial might be the best option for some builds, but not all of them.  Builds that rely heavily on a single condition would do better damage using a rune to compensate for the lost expertise.  Some guardian builds work for this, but you can do it with elementalist as well.

Do we need to continue?  It's not a universal best option as you claim.  What it is is a passable-to-good option for most builds that has plenty of sustain.  This makes it a good choice for the boost, but again, not necessarily the best all-around.

  

You make a lot of valid points here. The problem I see with Cele is that it holds crucial minor attributes such as ferocity, expertise and concentration.
These will beat out many sets that don't have their major attribute supported by one of these. Also the more free "big" attributes (power, condi dmg, crit chance) your profession gets from it's own kit, the more the deficiencies of cele diminish while it's advantages keep shining.

I'm glad there are still quite a few builds where cele is not optimal vs another hybrid stat set (not pure purpose one as these are almost always safe).
I'm just pointing out that the more free stats our professions get, the more obsolete "semi hybrid" gear becomes vs celestial in overall performance.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Just now, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

You make a lot of valid points here. The problem I see with Cele is that it holds crucial minor attributes such as ferocity, expertise and concentration.
These will beat out many sets that don't have their major attribute supported by one of these. Also the more free "big" attributes (power, condi dmg, crit chance) your profession gets from it's own kit, the more the deficiencies of cele diminish while it's advantages keep shining.

I'm glad there are still quite a few builds where cele is not optimal vs another hybrid stat set (not pure purpose one as these are almost always safe).
I'm just pointing out that the more free stats our professions get, the more obsolete "semi hybrid" gear becomes vs celestial in overall performance.

Thats not Cele overperforming. Thats most gear sets being useless. 

Stats like toughness/vita/Heal power can be made obsolete (in Openworld) by getting good at the game. 

In raids, you have a dedicated healer. 

Making all sets that feature even one of these stats pointless for anyone wanting to do dmg. (Except something like marauder for ele/guard) 

Boon Duration from runes/Sigils is usually enough to get all the boons you want for a solo build. Maybe a piece or two of diviner. 

Power builds hit like a wet noodle with Cele and Condi builds in Openworld are not that great for how fast everything dies. 

 

Cele gear is literally training wheels gear. 

And most stat combos are Noob traps. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

You make a lot of valid points here. The problem I see with Cele is that it holds crucial minor attributes such as ferocity, expertise and concentration.
These will beat out many sets that don't have their major attribute supported by one of these. Also the more free "big" attributes (power, condi dmg, crit chance) your profession gets from it's own kit, the more the deficiencies of cele diminish while it's advantages keep shining.

I'm glad there are still quite a few builds where cele is not optimal vs another hybrid stat set (not pure purpose one as these are almost always safe).
I'm just pointing out that the more free stats our professions get, the more obsolete "semi hybrid" gear becomes vs celestial in overall performance.

That is not an issue specific to cele, though.  A number of stat sets are considered so niche as to be almost entirely useless.  Cele is better than these sets, but so are a bunch of more useful sets that aren't cele.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Cele gear is literally training wheels gear. 

Eh, I disagree. I see it as the budget gear. It's the Honda Accord of armor stats. It's cheap but reliable, fun but not performing, does everything you need it to do without being good at any one thing. It doesn't race like a super car, it doesn't haul like a pickup truck, and it doesn't have the super economy of a hybrid. But it's affordable and that's what made it the most sold car.

I run celestial. I did so because when I looked at the cost of making ascended armor I knew I could only make ONE, so I made celestial. Now I can run power builds, condition builds, and support builds effectively. Not great, I cannot output top tier DPS or healing, but I can hold my own in any content. ANd honestly that's what this thread feels like, a lot of whining that "Look at those people having fun. I hate them!" because they made celestial gear and then forgot about their gear entirely and just went to play the game, frolicking through the battlefield. It reeks of jealously and envy.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

14 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Eh, I disagree. I see it as the budget gear. It's the Honda Accord of armor stats. It's cheap but reliable, fun but not performing, does everything you need it to do without being good at any one thing. It doesn't race like a super car, it doesn't haul like a pickup truck, and it doesn't have the super economy of a hybrid. But it's affordable and that's what made it the most sold car.

I run celestial. I did so because when I looked at the cost of making ascended armor I knew I could only make ONE, so I made celestial. Now I can run power builds, condition builds, and support builds effectively. Not great, I cannot output top tier DPS or healing, but I can hold my own in any content. ANd honestly that's what this thread feels like, a lot of whining that "Look at those people having fun. I hate them!" because they made celestial gear and then forgot about their gear entirely and just went to play the game, frolicking through the battlefield. It reeks of jealously and envy.

Ohh believe me, Im not jealous of someone having to running Cele. 😉

[Panda.1967]

The problem isn’t actually that celestial is OP in any game mode… the problem is that the Value per Point of various attributes is grossly disproportionate… as a result some stat sets are just flatout avoided by the playerbase while a small selection are gravitated to… this disproportionate value is actually what shifted Celestial from its intended spot as the baseline well rounded stat set to one of the more desirable sets.

[Padrion.7382]

22 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Currently due to profession power creep [...]

Why not address profession power creep then?

[Buran.3796]

Celestial stats are perfectly fine.

  You want power damage for niche, instanced team content? You run berserker, unless you don't cap crit chance so you add some assassin until you becaome aware that your class choice was wrong then you rerroll and equip zerk as expected.

  You want condi damage? Then you roll viper (who knowns why the hell grieving exist, is worse 98% of the time!).

  You want to support?  You run Minstrel. Support and damage? Then Diviner or Ritualist.

  Want to be tanky but deliver damage? Then you have carrion, dire or traiblazer. Or celestial which overshadows everything else.

 

   Any other gear stat is useless, the same as 95 of the 99 runes, which ended being a waste of time in design and balance. An happens the same with most of sigils and 75% of the relics: they do nothing. And is worse in PvP where there's like 4-5 amulets and maybe 2-3 runes in use; everything else is redundant and traps for noobs.

   And the thing is that berserker is overall very mediocre at solo  PvE: outside Bladesworn (which is tricky to play and inconsistent) most of the power damage builds are really lacking in self sustain. Yes, you mow regular crowds faster in zerker than in celestial, but you beat leg bounties better in celestial since you don't die, and players at downstate in berserker and viper stats left a lot to be desired in terms of dps...

[ShadowKatt.6740]

3 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

The problem isn’t actually that celestial is OP in any game mode… the problem is that the Value per Point of various attributes is grossly disproportionate… as a result some stat sets are just flatout avoided by the playerbase while a small selection are gravitated to… this disproportionate value is actually what shifted Celestial from its intended spot as the baseline well rounded stat set to one of the more desirable sets.

But here's the thing. No one is going to argue that Celestial gets a LOT more points than any other armor does. The math is super basic. And yet even with the staggeringly high number of points that celestial gear has it is STILL outperformed in DPS by 'zerk and Viper gear and in healing by....Apothecary? I don't have them all memorized. The point is that if it has SO VERY MANY points and it's still outperformed by other builds, then it doesn't need to be changed. And if it WAS changed then celestial would probably become worthless, which seems to be the goal here. This whole thread has been one exercise in taking away the toys of other people. I don't like what they have and they shouldn't have it. If you kicked down celestial down to the same numbers as the other armor you might just get that, and it might actually achieve the goal of forcing people to either find new gear or just quit the game.

And then what? Dunno if you remember but the relic system was put in place because the devs looked at certain armor sets that weren't being used and instituted a whole new system so their neglected runes could get used. Now if they find there's an entire armor set getting next to 0 use, what're they gonna do? Either nerf EVERY other armor, or buff Celestial again, and we're right back here. This whole conversation is a circle of pettiness.

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

But here's the thing. No one is going to argue that Celestial gets a LOT more points than any other armor does. The math is super basic. And yet even with the staggeringly high number of points that celestial gear has it is STILL outperformed in DPS by 'zerk and Viper gear and in healing by....Apothecary? I don't have them all memorized. The point is that if it has SO VERY MANY points and it's still outperformed by other builds, then it doesn't need to be changed. And if it WAS changed then celestial would probably become worthless, which seems to be the goal here. This whole thread has been one exercise in taking away the toys of other people. I don't like what they have and they shouldn't have it. If you kicked down celestial down to the same numbers as the other armor you might just get that, and it might actually achieve the goal of forcing people to either find new gear or just quit the game.

And then what? Dunno if you remember but the relic system was put in place because the devs looked at certain armor sets that weren't being used and instituted a whole new system so their neglected runes could get used. Now if they find there's an entire armor set getting next to 0 use, what're they gonna do? Either nerf EVERY other armor, or buff Celestial again, and we're right back here. This whole conversation is a circle of pettiness.

If it was even close to out dosing zerk/vipers (spoiler it often really is quite close to vipers) that would be incredibly broken because zerk/viper have absolutely nothing going for them except for damage. Cele damage is actually disgustingly close to vipers stats for most condi builds so long as they have a decent amount of hybrid damage yet it has a ton of extra defensive and support stats baked in almost for free. Yet, none of that matters, people want absolute max damage on their damage dealers and would consider cele "niche" even if it made them literally immortal (see the old 100% damage reduction herald for a completely broken and overpowered build that was never meta merely "niche").

[Zyreva.1078]

If cele would be balanced, nobody would care if it got nerfed, because players could just swap to one of the many other (hybrid) stats and continue as usual.

[Phyb.6704]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:54 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

In PvE????????? HUH!?!?!

Its a niche stat combo for raids/strikes and an (just) ok stat combo for openworld.

 

On 1/23/2024 at 12:14 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think you posted this in the wrong forum, as celestial gear is rarely used in pve (dungeons, fractals, raids, and strikes) and when it is, it tends to be the more skill-based option available for healers and tanks compared to sets with either more healing power, more defense, or both.

 

if you're referring to open-world, then that's not really pve but more like a mutli-player solo game mode.

13 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do think that you got a point here. But I also do think that the argument is a lot more relevant in the WvW context than it is in the PvE context.

Maybe it's because I'm an old school player but I still do think that, in PvE, offensive stats beat any amount of defensive stats. So for me, the pros of the celestial gear still don't beat a good old berserker gear, assassin gear or viper gear.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Celestial rev can solo silent surf cm.

Celestial reaper is insane in pve.

The fact a celestial geared character can solo what should NOT BE SOLOABLE.... is a problem. The overall stat total is very very high and allows for some really rare but overpowered builds.
I would advise looking at hizen on youtube to see just how stupid the celestial stat set is. 

Its not about the min/max of 1 focused heal / barrier well the rest are focused dps. Its about how with celestial stat set you can do what you should need 5 people for with 1 or 2. 
The whole point is that if you go high survival you drop dps and if you go high support you give up dps and if you go high dps you give up survival. That keeps balance for group content. Celestial = bring 1/5 the mount of players and beat the same content. 

If the power creep was not bad enough.
If the healing power was not already handled bad enough with some skills scaling off it and others taking maybe 30 more hps with 2k healing power.......
We have celestial just throwing away balance. 

And you think with the buff coming on the 30th for rev condi damage....... watch 2-3 celestial heralds solo any and all 10man. 

If you're thinking about min/max you wont care about celestial. If you're thinking balance........ well.

[Phyb.6704]

it bugged and double posted. I deleted the 2nd one. 

Edited January 24 by ohericoseo.4316

[Shagie.7612]

39 minutes ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Celestial rev can solo silent surf cm.

For what it's worth, 99% of being able to do that is because of the cheese/skip/exploit/whatever you wanna call it for the 66%/33%, which isn't rev specific.
I don't disagree with nerfing cele or anything (particularly because I think GW2 in general does a really poor job of teaching players how to play by giving them sets like cele and never challenging them), but if you watch the actual video there's nothing particularly egregious about it that some other optimized solo build with a block couldn't do.

Also that skip's been fixed since I'm pretty sure

Edited January 24 by Shagie.7612

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Celestial rev can solo silent surf cm.

Celestial reaper is insane in pve.

The fact a celestial geared character can solo what should NOT BE SOLOABLE.... is a problem. The overall stat total is very very high and allows for some really rare but overpowered builds.
I would advise looking at hizen on youtube to see just how stupid the celestial stat set is. 

Its not about the min/max of 1 focused heal / barrier well the rest are focused dps. Its about how with celestial stat set you can do what you should need 5 people for with 1 or 2. 
The whole point is that if you go high survival you drop dps and if you go high support you give up dps and if you go high dps you give up survival. That keeps balance for group content. Celestial = bring 1/5 the mount of players and beat the same content. 

If the power creep was not bad enough.
If the healing power was not already handled bad enough with some skills scaling off it and others taking maybe 30 more hps with 2k healing power.......
We have celestial just throwing away balance. 

And you think with the buff coming on the 30th for rev condi damage....... watch 2-3 celestial heralds solo any and all 10man. 

If you're thinking about min/max you wont care about celestial. If you're thinking balance........ well.

I think I'd blame vindicator for that, not celestial stats.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Celestial rev can solo silent surf cm.

Here's a guy that watches a Lord Hizen video and thinks it's because of the stats.

This just in: Puma shoes OP because Usain Bolt can break 27 mph in them. NERF PUMA SHOES!

47 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I think I'd blame vindicator for that, not celestial stats.

Not Vindi (or cele), Hizen.

Edited January 25 by Gaiawolf.8261