[PvE] Celestial stats in need of a trim.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

As professions get stronger and stronger it gets progressively harder to just sit and justify the current overtuned values of celestial gear.
According to the old term "Jack of all trades, master of none" celestial gear has a very clear purpose and a place - at the very bottom.

Any gear that is tailored to more specific purpose than celestial should yield better results in it's respective field(s), as it comes with weaknesses that celestial gear does not have (since it covers all the bases). That sadly does not seem to be the case anymore in practice.

Currently due to profession power creep resulting in easier access to self buffing (25 might), free stats from traits and the ever present law of diminishing returns celestial sits too close for comfort to much more specialized hybrid sets that for all means and purposes should overtake it in damage due to larger holes in defense.

Yet in many cases the gains in choosing sets such as Plaguedoctor, Ritualist or in some cases even Grieving are questionable when faced with value of losses taken by completely missing other stats Cele has. Heck let's stick to pure math  here.

Your regular, honest 4 stat combo ascended gear set gives you total of 3612 attribute points.
Celestial - 5697.

While I agree hybrid gear needs bit more stats to perform, i think a little snip is in order here..

[AliamRationem.5172]

Sorry, I get the argument for WvW, but PvE?  Celestial is pretty niche outside of sustain builds for solo play and why would that be a problem?  I don't get it.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

In PvE????????? HUH!?!?!

Its a niche stat combo for raids/strikes and an (just) ok stat combo for openworld.

 

[DeanBB.4268]

Maybe WvW should start using the PvP "normalized stats" system rather than the PvE gear? 

Would that bring an end to all these anti-celestial posts?

And if this post really is about PvE, then don't use celestial if you don't want to?

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Maybe WvW should start using the PvP "normalized stats" system rather than the PvE gear? 

Would that bring an end to all these anti-celestial posts?

And if this post really is about PvE, then don't use celestial if you don't want to?

They should do it as a trial week.  Switch WvW over to the amulet system for 1 week and see what happens.

[LSD.4673]

1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Your regular, honest 4 stat combo ascended gear set gives you total of 3612 attribute points.
Celestial - 5697.

A dungeon path awards 100 dungeon tokens, while a raid wing only provides 1 LI.

Just cos there's more, doesn't make them better. The vast majority of specs can't use all the stats, and in PvE of all places, the extra stats don't add up to anything meaningful. In fact, you're at a disadvantage cos you'll be sat there plinking away at mobs instead of killing them.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

They should do it as a trial week.  Switch WvW over to the amulet system for 1 week and see what happens.

The question is whether they can do such a thing or not.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think you posted this in the wrong forum, as celestial gear is rarely used in pve (dungeons, fractals, raids, and strikes) and when it is, it tends to be the more skill-based option available for healers and tanks compared to sets with either more healing power, more defense, or both.

 

if you're referring to open-world, then that's not really pve but more like a mutli-player solo game mode.

Edited January 23 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[PepeLePewPew.2107]

33 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think you posted this in the wrong forum

Maybe bring this up in the Elementalist section.  Nobody really needs celestial gear anyway, amiright?

[ArthurDent.9538]

It's op in pve too it's just that there isn't much content that is difficult in a way where being able to stack lots of defensive/supportive stats while still maintaining solid damage is of great value. Most pve enemies simply don't have the consistent fast paced attack patterns where players don't have enough dodges to avoid everything important (also healers are pretty OP at keeping glass cannons alive against stuff like passive damage auras) which could showcase cele's insane statistical superiority.

Cele is only "balanced" in pve because encounters lack depth in a way where they can punish running full offensive setups. The reality is that you can't have a stat set have 60% more stats than other sets and call that balanced unless much of those stats are literally worthless. Pvp has shown that all stats have good value, it's simply that pve lacks encounters where more defensive stats help significantly.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

it's simply that pve lacks encounters where more defensive stats help significantly.

It's not really that, in some encounters having toughness can mess with the aggro system while some boss skills remove a set %age of life regardless of your stats. That said, boons and barrier cover everything that those defensive stats could cover.

[ArthurDent.9538]

29 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's not really that, in some encounters having toughness can mess with the aggro system while some boss skills remove a set %age of life regardless of your stats. That said, boons and barrier cover everything that those defensive stats could cover.

Those are literally examples that my support my point: encounters designed where defensive stats have less value.

[DeanBB.4268]

I'm a little confused about what we're talking about here, and the OP hasn't chimed in to verify. Is this about Celestial in WvW, instanced PvE, or open world PvE? It seems I am seeing references to both types of pve ("healers" mentioned, thus instanced, and "pve encounters", thus open world). How is "balanced" managed in PvE? If a stat set is optimal for your build, wouldn't you use it? If someone else is using celestial when it might not be optimal for their build, how is that a problem or unbalanced? If celestial is better for your build, but you aren't using it due to reasons, is that a problem?

But if the OP really was talking about WvW, which makes more sense since balance and fighting against people with celestial stats is a thing, then it's a different conversation.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Reporting this thread for harassment and personal attacks.

Leave my Celestial gear alone you big meanie.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

It's op in pve too it's just that there isn't much content that is difficult in a way where being able to stack lots of defensive/supportive stats while still maintaining solid damage is of great value. Most pve enemies simply don't have the consistent fast paced attack patterns where players don't have enough dodges to avoid everything important (also healers are pretty OP at keeping glass cannons alive against stuff like passive damage auras) which could showcase cele's insane statistical superiority.

Cele is only "balanced" in pve because encounters lack depth in a way where they can punish running full offensive setups. The reality is that you can't have a stat set have 60% more stats than other sets and call that balanced unless much of those stats are literally worthless. Pvp has shown that all stats have good value, it's simply that pve lacks encounters where more defensive stats help significantly.

And those stats are literally worthless in most cases, which is why cele isn't problematic in PvE.

[AliamRationem.5172]

43 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Those are literally examples that my support my point: encounters designed where defensive stats have less value.

Right or wrong, the decision to have distinct roles in PvE was made years ago.  Nobody wants to play a healer that isn't effective at keeping allies alive.  That's why defensive stats are worthless in group PvE. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Buff 3 stat gear.

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

3 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think you posted this in the wrong forum, as celestial gear is rarely used in pve (dungeons, fractals, raids, and strikes) and when it is, it tends to be the more skill-based option available for healers and tanks compared to sets with either more healing power, more defense, or both.

 

if you're referring to open-world, then that's not really pve but more like a mutli-player solo game mode.

Didn't someone do a raid with nothing but scourges doing Celestial gear, I don't raid frequently but I swear I remember people were laughing and gawking at its succession.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Didn't someone do a raid with nothing but scourges doing Celestial gear, I don't raid frequently but I swear I remember people were laughing and gawking at its succession.

I've done full fractal CM runs in trailblazer and using non-meta builds.  It doesn't really say much about the stats being problematic.  More that power creep is insanely high compared to years past.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

3 hours ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Didn't someone do a raid with nothing but scourges doing Celestial gear, I don't raid frequently but I swear I remember people were laughing and gawking at its succession.

People did raids naked and even with no weapons equipped. 

Beating a raid is really not a useful measurement. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

For the record...

I do not think Cele is some OP super strong game ending stat combo in any given game mode. I beat celes in WvW with non cele geat and I have used cele on my own builds and know it's shortfalls.

That said I see value in normalizing the stat totals of 3 stat, 4 stat, and cele gear. Whether that means buffing 3 stat gear a lot, and 4 stat gear some, or nerfing cele and 4 stat gear to the totals of 3 stat gear, or nerfing cele and buffing 3 stat gear to match the totals of 4 stat gear I don't care. Making them the same total amount of stats is probably the right thing to do in the end irrespective of the way that is manifested. Personally, I think the best approach there is to buff 3 stat gear and cele down both the the 4 stat gear totals. Just buffing 3 and 4 stat gear to the amount of cele would make the game trivial, and nerfing cele and 4 stat gear to the level of 3 stat gear would be too much of a de-creep.

[Emberheart.8426]

31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

For the record...

I do not think Cele is some OP super strong game ending stat combo in any given game mode. I beat celes in WvW with non cele geat and I have used cele on my own builds and know it's shortfalls.

That said I see value in normalizing the stat totals of 3 stat, 4 stat, and cele gear. Whether that means buffing 3 stat gear a lot, and 4 stat gear some, or nerfing cele and 4 stat gear to the totals of 3 stat gear, or nerfing cele and buffing 3 stat gear to match the totals of 4 stat gear I don't care. Making them the same total amount of stats is probably the right thing to do in the end irrespective of the way that is manifested. Personally, I think the best approach there is to buff 3 stat gear and cele down both the the 4 stat gear totals. Just buffing 3 and 4 stat gear to the amount of cele would make the game trivial, and nerfing cele and 4 stat gear to the level of 3 stat gear would be too much of a de-creep.

If you make them the same amount of stats then almost everyone will run 3 stat gear and gear with more stats types will be pointless.

It is a known fact that stacking more of the same stats is superior due to how traits and other multipliers work, leading to exponential gains. Investing into additional stat types almost always makes your build worse, except for a very few niche cases. This is why 4 stat gear has a higher stat total. If this wasn't true nobody would ever use 3 stat gear, and yet it's used fairly often.

[Widebody.5071]

10 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Sorry, I get the argument for WvW, but PvE?  Celestial is pretty niche outside of sustain builds for solo play and why would that be a problem?  I don't get it.

Yep that's right... Works for me, one utilitarian set for the whole game.

[Widebody.5071]

8 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

A dungeon path awards 100 dungeon tokens, while a raid wing only provides 1 LI.

Just cos there's more, doesn't make them better. The vast majority of specs can't use all the stats, and in PvE of all places, the extra stats don't add up to anything meaningful. In fact, you're at a disadvantage cos you'll be sat there plinking away at mobs instead of killing them.

But why take away a players choice? It's bad enough with the nerfs we've endured over the years with most of those coming from PVE issues. issues that translated over to competitive play. When that fact was pointed out in the forums, you'll be met with sarcastic posts and a bunch of frowny or bewildered emojis. Nothing different to see here, just the same people trying to pull the same antics looking to give themselves some kind of advantage. 😕

Edited January 24 by Widebody.5071

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

People did raids naked and even with no weapons equipped. 

Beating a raid is really not a useful measurement. 

Well its only something I recalled, I don't know how you'd get a useful measurement in a more PVE sense of things.